96 replies to this topic

[Calamus]

Roachbugg, on 10 February 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

In every match I've played in my atlai in the last few weeks, I seem to loose my side torsos in less than three seconds and then get cored shortly.

Since when is it the norm for an atlas to die faster than a highlander or an xl victor or a god damn battle master. I'm just getting completely plowed its almost to the point that I wanna hang up my atlai and just get two more highlanders. Im sick of this its no fun what is the point of being in the biggest baddest mech in the inner sphere if you cant do anything?

Your Atlas is a victim of matches being increased from 8 v 8 to 12 v 12.

It was created when PGI was thinking about 8 man matches. So, when you're facing down 8 mechs focus firing you, you can at least twist and absorb some damage while your team hits back. If you happened to only meet 1 lance of 4 mechs, then you could really weather the storm and George Foreman them with a few hooks to the body.

With 12 man matches there are simply too many mechs focus firing on one mech. The Atlas now faces 6 - 8 mechs all the time, all of them focusing on him. When that happens, the Atlas is simply too slow to be able to do anything about it. With pinpoint damage as it is there is no way that he could carry enough armour in one area to be able to weather any sort of storm.

Plus, loadouts are so poorly balanced that an Atlas with an AC20, a few medium lasers, and a few SRM 6 packs just doesn't have the firepower to hit back against a half dozen dual PPC, AC10, or quad AC5 combo's.

When a FIRESTARTER can carry 8 small lasers, their 24 point pinpoint alpha is just too much for a 50 some odd, spread out (cause of SRMs) alpha. Spider's with ER PPC's? Don't get me started.

THAT is why my Atlas' gather rust in my mech bays in favour of faster Assault mechs like the Battlemaster, or Jumping cheese mechs like the Highlander.

Now don't get me wrong. If you're playing with an experienced team, with good tactics, the Atlas can still be a valuable mech on the battlefield. But it's hardly the scourge of the battlefield like it is in Battletech, and like it was with 8 man teams.

[KuroKittie]

Just dropped by to share my misery with my newly bought Atlas. On huge maps you will get left behind and picked off by enemy lights cause of the slow speed. I bought this mech to wreck some face up close and i charge into the fray like rambo only to get something like 3 shot, who knows with what. It's as people have described, there's too many mechs focusing you to shine as a brawler at this point, and me being a newbie in this game doesn't help, since i don't know the maps, where it is good to hide and where to not walk casually. I'm doing ok for my experience, but god i feel so squishy and helpless sometimes in Atlas, god forbid a light decides to dance around me, if he's smart and doesnt just circle me, i probably can't land a single hit. Gah... That's not what i expected from assault mechs, definitely not noob friendly.

[StalaggtIKE]

The problems can be attributed to:

• slow speed
  
• large hitboxes
  
• lack of JJ
  
• spotty hit detection for brawling weapons (SRM and AC20)
  
• current meta favoring long range high alpha pinpoint over brawling
  
• problematic hardpoints
  
  • generally low hardpoint count
    
  • majority in side torsos and arms
    
  • low missile tube counts (max 10)
    
  • mostly all are low slung

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 March 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Sug]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 March 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

The problems can be attributed to:

• slow speed
  
• large hitboxes
  
• lack of JJ
  
• spotty hit detection for brawling weapons (SRM and AC20)
  
• current meta favoring long range high alpha pinpoint over brawling
  
• problematic hardpoints
  
  • generally low hardpoint count
    
  • majority in side torsos and arms
    
  • low missile tube counts (max 10)
    
  • mostly all are low slung

UI 2.0 will address all that.

[wanderer]

What changed from 8v8 to 12v12 is that one single Atlas is less likely to be able to tank incoming fire.

Multiple Atlai still work- you just can't take all the fire solo. Even two of them are generally enough that people panic and split-fire while you two tear bits off of anything in sight.

Let's repeat that big point - you cannot solo. you need an off-tank. A solo target is merely a dead piece of metal in the process of being knocked over.

[Buckminster]

wanderer, on 04 March 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Multiple Atlai still work- you just can't take all the fire solo. Even two of them are generally enough that people panic and split-fire while you two tear bits off of anything in sight.

Had a game this morning against a team that included a well coordinated Steiner scout lance. It was made worse by the fact that the match was a Skirmish on Crimson Straits, and 4 guys decided to go on a walkabout.

Needless to say, we got thrashed.

[oldradagast]

Cathy, on 01 March 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

I think the most important thing your you tube video shows is you moving all the time, even if going in small circles, it spreads damage and makes even Atlantes (eat that grammar fascists) harder to hit, most big fails are those that stop to fire

Agreed. It drives me up the wall seeing assault mechs just standing there in one spot, not moving at all, as they get lit up from a stream of fire. I get it - they are big, slow, and easy targets, but if you just stand there, you will die fast, Atlas-level armor or not.

[Charons Little Helper]

So - any other Atlai pilots a bit pumped about how JJs just got nerfed - especially those on assaults?

Really - JJs are the primary disadvantage Atlases have vs the meta-assaults. (Victor / Highlander)

It just became less of a disadvantage.

[Karl Streiger]

Nothing changed.... regarding jump jets.
The only difference is that - Highlanders climb like a rock - and both Victor and Highlander won't get at short range into your rear.

But still the Mediums (for example the Wolverine) have no problems in out manouver the Atlas and gnaw at its rear.
Best Protection is - not getting isolated

And thats the secret about the Atlas - don't get isolated - even when you are a good shot and the enemy are rookies.... to fight two mediums in a single atlas is a death sentence (i did win such a fight - once back in CB) but DHS and Endosteel did bolster - mobility and firepower of Mediums - you don't have any chance.

To play the Atlas good - also means to find a good load out - that uses ALL of its hardpoints. Even a single LRM5 could be a valuable asset.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 March 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

KuroKittie, on 01 March 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Just dropped by to share my misery with my newly bought Atlas. On huge maps you will get left behind and picked off by enemy lights cause of the slow speed.

Add in a few streaks (make sure to pay the BAP tax) and you can give those lights a nasty surprise.

[Panzerjotun]

Calamus, on 01 March 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Your Atlas is a victim of matches being increased from 8 v 8 to 12 v 12.

It was created when PGI was thinking about 8 man matches. So, when you're facing down 8 mechs focus firing you, you can at least twist and absorb some damage while your team hits back. If you happened to only meet 1 lance of 4 mechs, then you could really weather the storm and George Foreman them with a few hooks to the body.

With 12 man matches there are simply too many mechs focus firing on one mech. The Atlas now faces 6 - 8 mechs all the time, all of them focusing on him. When that happens, the Atlas is simply too slow to be able to do anything about it. With pinpoint damage as it is there is no way that he could carry enough armour in one area to be able to weather any sort of storm.

Plus, loadouts are so poorly balanced that an Atlas with an AC20, a few medium lasers, and a few SRM 6 packs just doesn't have the firepower to hit back against a half dozen dual PPC, AC10, or quad AC5 combo's.

When a FIRESTARTER can carry 8 small lasers, their 24 point pinpoint alpha is just too much for a 50 some odd, spread out (cause of SRMs) alpha. Spider's with ER PPC's? Don't get me started.

THAT is why my Atlas' gather rust in my mech bays in favour of faster Assault mechs like the Battlemaster, or Jumping cheese mechs like the Highlander.

Now don't get me wrong. If you're playing with an experienced team, with good tactics, the Atlas can still be a valuable mech on the battlefield. But it's hardly the scourge of the battlefield like it is in Battletech, and like it was with 8 man teams.

THIS.

Nuff said.

[Zelumbras]

Definitely one of the more informative threads in this forum so far!

While i don't pilot an Atlas myself (yet!), i still want to add some of my experiences from countless PuG matches with at least one Atlas in the team. I run most of my Phracts or Victors as relatively fast brawler builds and, more often than not, had to realize that if you want to get into a brawl, you have to initiate it yourself. Therefore i often take the role of the spear head myself and hope that at least 2-3 mechs will follow without stopping at the next convenient cover. A few words typed in chat as well as the right timing go a long way there!
The problem in doing this are not so much the players that prefer to stay back and jump snipe from cover but rather the many undecided people who wait for someone on either side to take initiative and that is the point where an Atlas can really shine. People are much more likely to follow an Atlas and a Phract than just the Phract. Some of my best and most fun matches were when i found a similar minded Atlas pilot in my team to lead the charge with me.
That being said, it is not the Atlas that should be in front! The Atlas seems to do best in the center of the 2nd line in a push. I usually go up front in my faster mech and dance around a little and shoot my LBX left and right to make our opponents heat up the rocks (and themselves!) with their alpha strikes while trying to take as little damage as possible. Then i will move aside when suddenly ... AN ATLAS! Nothing will throw them more into disarray than being at high heat when they are suddenly confronted with a pristine Atlas at brawling range. At this point you just shoot whatever the Atlas is shooting and focus them down quickly.
Of course, this does not work every time. Sometimes the Atlas pilot does not want to get close and personal and sometimes the herd just decides to hide and graze in a spot that might as well have the red smoke already built in by default *cough* crater passes in Terra Therma *cough*. This can easily lead to your mechs heroic or stupid and slightly embarrassing destruction.

[TL;DR]
From my experience, an Atlas should be in the center of an attack force, behind the skirmishers and in front of the fire support mechs. Protect your Atlas so he can protect you and if you are going to push, make sure you are not doing it alone.

[That Dawg]

My butthurt addition to the thread.
DDC: all three variants mastered for a total over a 1000 battles- is the only mech I've broke 900dmg in a dozen times.
Its the only mech I hadn't sold, till now. Almost 500 battles later-DDc is stripped, and sold.
As has been pointed out, when a medium can equal the alpha, double the speed and have jumps for such minor penalties as half the armor and no ecm? Needed the bay.
All those battles taught me how to kill one.
game is whacked We're too deep in now to make big changes, but making the hit boxes half the size would once again put assaults into the lime light of 'oh crap, an atlas, back the hell up'
assaults; slow, heavy, should be able to flatten, or out right cripple, any light in the game with one alpha. Mediums with 2-3 well placed alphas.
They used to be the gawdawful land crawling fortresses.
Assaults are penalized with bad view, terrible hill climb, poor torso twist, slow speed, as it is now, I SEEK out atlas in my ecm cicada or MG spider, if they are even remotely alone...and towards the end of the game, I'll blow right into a furball to get one.

[Samual Kalkin]

Vulcan888, on 11 March 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

[TL;DR]
From my experience, an Atlas should be in the center of an attack force, behind the skirmishers and in front of the fire support mechs. Protect your Atlas so he can protect you and if you are going to push, make sure you are not doing it alone.

That's LAST place I want to be in my Atlas. It means the enemy will try to core me from the front, while my so-called team will be trying to shoot through me from the back. If my sided doesn't kill me outright, and enemy light will pop me from behind through the armor my not-allies stripped from back.

[Orbit Rain]

Void Angel, on 13 February 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Well, you just made a fool of yourself and violated forum rules. Also, "Atlai," is not a word, because English.

...please elaborate and report my post if you feel so aggrieved, I'll check this thread in another month, and again, not read it when I see another incoming wall of text. In a poker forum we use the word "grunch" to indicate a response without reading further. I grunched at the point you posted. I'll assume you aren't a native English speaker, aware of how fluid and changing this language is. Also, please tell me how "ain't" isn't a word Mr. Grammar {Godwin's Law}.

Thank you for the snide response to a post not directed at you.

[oldradagast]

Other's have covered this all in detail, but the game heavily rewards any mech that is as small as possible while still carrying a good weapon payload and is able to use cover fully (jump jets, high mounted weapons, etc.)

The Atlas isn't really any of these things. It has a good, mixed loadout of weapons, but it is also BIG and slow. So, it can be focus-fired into the ground, despite all that armor. Its slow speed also punishes it when it tries to use cover - it can't pop into and out of cover quickly - and it lacks both jump jets and high-mounted direct fire weapons. So, it can't pop-tart, hill-hump, or just run in and out of cover like a nut.

They can still be deadly, but they really are the finisher in the game. The mech that shows up AFTER everything has turned into a brawl and finishes off the enemy thanks to a decent mix of firepower and armor. During the early phase of the game - the sniping and striking phase - an Atlas can't do much, sadly. Heck, I sometimes even put an LRM 20 back on the thing just to give me something to do that might be useful during that part of the match. I'm too slow to use cover well, I have no high-mounted weapons or jump-jets, and the moment the enemy sees me, they will drop everything on my head.

While I like this game, time to kill for mechs is too low in general, and it seems every center torso is as large as a barn (light mechs excluded, of course.) Combine that with the unpredictable hit detection, and you can sometimes have light mechs lasting longer than assaults in a fight, your Atlas's AC20 rounds doing nothing on a "hit" and so on. It's frustrating, though I'm not sure what can be done about it now.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 March 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Cromwill]

I used to have a 3.0 K/D ratio brawling in Victors ( I do not role meta builds) now my K/D ratio is around 2.0. Despite JJ and decent hotboxes in my Victor I have noticed a significant drop my dmg and incase in my deaths.

I can hop in a fast Dragon or Shadowhawk and rack out up damage usually in excess of 200% of what I pull in my Victor now.

Last night i had a two Firestarters with 8 small pulse lasers jump my Dragon Slayer and leg me in less that 5 secs. They were literally on me and by the time i noticed I had lost a leg.

The Meta is frustrating in my opinion, I can roll meta with the best of them on my Victors, but I don't find it fun or challenging. Brawling is rare.

I'm so tired of PPC and AC5 spam.

This game had so much promise. I just do not understand what these developers are doing. Compared to Star Citizen these guys are pure amateurs.

The META is a result of single threat- other mechs. Add in planes, tanks, infantry etc and then you would HAVE to other weapon systems to deal with other threats. Otherwise every nerf just leads to a new PinPoint Meta weapon.

Edited by Cromwill, 13 March 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Amsro]

Cromwill, on 13 March 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Otherwise every nerf just leads to a new PinPoint Meta weapon.

But the PinPoint Meta weapon hasn't changed in over a year, since then we have had;

-Ghost Heat
-ER/PPC Heat 10/15
-PPC Minimum Range
-ER/PPC ECM Counter/Disable (buff?)
-ER/PPC 1200 m/s to 2000 m/s
-ER/PPC 2000 m/s to 1500 m/s
-Too much to list really (Gauss, AC/10, LBX-10... and on and on..)
No numbers they change make ANY influence on PINPOINT damage, the main balancing factor.

This is called chasing your tail. PGI needs to take in the 2 years of random balancing they have done, inspect it in detail. And then make changes accordingly. (Too much time needed for them to actually do this.)

Balance will forever be a dream I fear. Clans will compound this, it's going to be interesting to be sure.

Edited by Amsro, 13 March 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[oldradagast]

Clans I fear will break this game completely.

Even with the seemingly random and ad-hoc limits on customization they are forcing on Clan mechs, I figure at least some of them will be disgustingly good... good enough to basically break whatever balance is left in the game. If they can't balance the current crop of mechs and prevent the pin-point meta from dominating, how can they balance a whole new pile of weapons and mech, in particular with weapons designed to be superior to what we have now?

[JigglyMoobs]

It's folly to Nerf pinpoint via weapons. The point of weapons is to maximize damage. The way you maximize damage is to go pinpoint. Thus people develop their ability and tactics to pinpoint using the most suitable weapon in the game. When you nerf, those with the skills and tactics adapt and become even better. Meanwhile, the self perceived victims of pinpoint start looking to nerfs for false hope and don't move forward, making the skill gap even wider. You then have to Nerf more to make weapons suck more, etc, basically applying evolutionary pressure to create a bimodal skill distribution separated by the chasm of the middle elo. At that point the game becomes very newbie unfriendly.

On the other hand in pugs at least people employing the proper skills and tactics come out of a match damaged all over their mechs, meaning that they've successfully countered pinpoint with skill and tactics. The smart thing to do is to create new features to teach people those tactics or new options to more easily employ anti-sniping skills so that people can climb the skill ladder in a more progressive and rewarding way. Eg, how about a momentary shield you can activate to spread damage at the cost of high heat and recharge time (so you have to chose between shielding and firing)?

The in game ui could also be much more educational w.r.t. the right tactics in this game than it is now. Eg, why can't the ui automatically highlight active battle areasbon the map and give visual cues of the volume of incoming fire being experinced by teammates? Then the newbies would get a better idea of where to go or where to avoid.

Also, why can't your teammates icons indicate approximate elo level or experience? Then the new guys would know immediately who to follow, making everything easier.

Also, why can't you flash symbols to your teammates via the icon over your head? Eg an ! for danger, a green hand to tell people to advance, a red hand for stop, and flashing the sign after repeated key presses to indicate urgency.

If people became more skilled and smarter tactically, balance would be less of an issue.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 13 March 2014 - 11:00 AM.