52 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

So, was running with a premade Lance (meaning almost guaranteed that we faced at least one other premade) today, some guys I really only know from the forums, so we have not built any chemistry yet, when we go on a drop and get the MOTHER of all MatchMaker screwups.

The Opposition:
890 tons
6 assault (2 of which were D-DCs)
3 heavy
3 medium
their lightest mech weighed 50 tons.

vs

Our Team:

545 tons
1 assault (A Victor)
1 heavy
3 medium (and one was a Cicada!)
7 lights (Not a single Spider, so no borked lag shield hit detection invulnerability)

What.
The.
Heck?

Our team massed 61% of the Opfor!!!!! (Or put another way they outmassed us by a full lance of 4 Stalkers!!!) And we dropped on Alpine, where the firepower differential and ranged weapon difference is HUGE, as is the lack of cover!

Right from the start we end up getting split down the middle with the open area of the map becoming a kill box owned by AssaultMechs R US. We lose a couple of guys. And then, things click.... the survivors simply stop worrying about being split, the OpFor starts to get cocky, and people start to overextend, at which point we tear out like wolves from the darkest medieval forest, tearing the enemy limb from limb, before retreating to what little shelter there was.

Patience, rinse, wash and repeat.

End result?


Moral of the story (beside that the MatchMaker does indeed suck?)?

Patience and cooperation mean far more that raw firepower and tonnage to winning in MWO. The problem is too few people even try to work together (not easy with our primitive in game comms, but far from impossible... heck, just stick with the rest of the bloody team and focus on whoever is locked on does wonders) and most people are way too bloody concerned with inflating their stats to take chances, to die for the team, etc.

Did our skill level really matter? If Elo is remotely working, it should not, as there should have been a rough analogue of each of us on the other team. It really came down to simply being patient, working together and then when the time is right, actually committing and pushing hard instead of cowering behind hills trying to snipe each other to death.


Tonnage is overrated. Teamwork is OP!

*EDIT
hey Levi, reloaded from other other Photobucket account. I probably exceeded my monthly bandwidth or some junk on my main. It seems weird when that happens...some months I post a butt load, and no issue, other months, I post little, and BANG... bandwidth. *shrugs*

Also to Yiaz's point..... I was actually split from them.... they ended up on the south end of the OpFor, I was Isolated to the North. Our guys were making probes up the north side and on the south side mostly hiding, until we kinda took control of the situation, I started jumping the backsides of anything that was even remotely shielded from their main body (I believe Twig was on the north front too, I forget), Yaz and Noonan did similar work on the other end. Soon we had a numeric advantage and started to push til we met in the middles. The last 2-3 enemy mechs looked like lambs being fed to piranha.

If you notice the damage totals...not too impressive for smoking that heavy a unit, but Yiaz said it, we didn't fight their strength, we exploited their weakness, and tore open backs and legs. It was pretty textbook example of using terrain, mobility and initiative to dismember a "superior" force. I think we got an invite to teach a lecture at the NAIS, hosted by General Andy Redburn, to compare our tactics to those he deployed on the St Andre drop.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 February 2014 - 09:27 PM.

[Yiazmat]

Post of Great Justice.

Best game I've had in months. look forward to playing more of the same Bishop.

Cheers!

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

FYI the image is displaying one of those "upgrade to Photobucket Plus" images for me. Too many view I guess.

Can you give us a summary of the final score in plain text?

That aside, it's always impressive when a serious tonnage deficit (or a multiple-player deficit in the case of failed-to-join or early-disconnect matches) is overcome by sheer grit, skill, and luck.

[Yiazmat]

it's a 12-7 spread. nobody in our team did less than 200 dmg and several of them did less than 50. pretty mean beating, all told.

oh and to be perfectly honest, our whole lance was singling out solo mechs and legging the crap out of them. 12 med las' and 12 mg's on 3 embers and a streak Hunter 2D2 shawk on someone's legs leads to ridiculous armor chewing.

[Yiazmat]

oh try right clicking on it to "view image". photo bucket is kinda trashy.

[Sephlock]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 February 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Or put another way they outmassed us by a full lance of 4 Stalkers!!!) And we dropped on Alpine, where the firepower differential and ranged weapon difference is HUGE, as is the lack of cover

Don't think of it as a full lance of 4 stalkers, think of it as a full lance of 4 Awesomes + 1 locust.

[Bishop Steiner]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 11 February 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

FYI the image is displaying one of those "upgrade to Photobucket Plus" images for me. Too many view I guess.

Can you give us a summary of the final score in plain text?

That aside, it's always impressive when a serious tonnage deficit (or a multiple-player deficit in the case of failed-to-join or early-disconnect matches) is overcome by sheer grit, skill, and luck.

hey Levi, reloaded from other other Photobucket account. I probably exceeded my monthly bandwidth or some junk on my main. It seems weird when that happens...some months I post a butt load, and no issue, other months, I post little, and BANG... bandwidth. *shrugs*

Also to Yiaz's point..... I was actually split from them.... they ended up on the south end of the OpFor, I was Isolated to the North. Our guys were making probes up the north side and on the south side mostly hiding, until we kinda took control of the situation, I started jumping the backsides of anything that was even remotely shielded from their main body (I believe Twig was on the north front too, I forget), Yaz and Noonan did similar work on the other end. Soon we had a numeric advantage and started to push til we met in the middles. The last 2-3 enemy mechs looked like lambs being fed to piranha.

If you notice the damage totals...not too impressive for smoking that heavy a unit, but Yiaz said it, we didn't fight their strength, we exploited their weakness, and tore open backs and legs. It was pretty textbook example of using terrain, mobility and initiative to dismember a "superior" force. I think we got an invite to teach a lecture at the NAIS, hosted by General Andy Redburn, to compare our tactics to those he deployed on the St Andre drop.

reposted image from my backup acct.


I think we took to heart the words of Shakespeare..... "Cry Havoc!!!! And let slip the Dogs of War!!!"

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 February 2014 - 09:35 PM.

[Bagheera]

Your topic title is OP, I demand nerfs to topic titles.

[Lord Perversor]

Sephlock, on 11 February 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Don't think of it as a full lance of 4 stalkers, think of it as a full lance of 4 Awesomes + 1 locust.

Even more terrific that's a whole heavy lurm artillery + spotter!!

On an unrelated note the more skewed match i once witnessed was a team full of assault with a CTF and Cat as light mechs...
The opposing team had 1 Assault 1x Heavy and all meds and a couple of lights.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Perversor, on 11 February 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

Even more terrific that's a whole heavy lurm artillery + spotter!!

On an unrelated note the more skewed match i once witnessed was a team full of assault with a CTF and Cat as light mechs...
The opposing team had 1 Assault 1x Heavy and all meds and a couple of lights.

That actually might have been another factor that saved our bacon. a couple more LRMboats and some spotting work, and we would likely have gotten smoked. It's one of the times that LRM coordination actually is more useful than the current poptart meta, as LRMs reach OVER cover.

[Yiazmat]

ah that's right, we drew the attention of their two light-hunter cent's and a Victor, then we scattered to the wind any they continued chasing you into oblivion. by the time they realized they're not able to catch a 135kph light they were so out of position they couldn't help their friends. then came back in from 3 sides to drop the 35 ton hammers :-D

[627]

wolfpack is OP

seriously, swarming enemies with same looking mechs is as funny as deadly. Problem with it is, it only works on solo mechs or smaller groups.

If you have so many assaults you should always stay together and form a phalanx or two. As swarming is the best tactic for lights so is standing-next-to-eachother for assaults. Still, big kudos

[SgtKinCaiD]

As already stated in another thread, tonnage balance is only a small part of the problem concerning MM and stomps : when the loosing team has 3+ heavies/assault who can't break the 10 points marks, it's not a problem of tonnage. And a light player with a 2000 ELO score is a force to be reckoned with.

In this case, the loosing team has : a STK-3F who was probably AFK, a CN9-YLW and a VTR-DS who were barely awake, a CPLT-A1 and a AS7-D-DC who were useless. So basicaly it was a 12 vs 7 match, no wonder you win despite the 345 tons difference : the loosing team had 380 tons of dead meat.

Edited by SgtKinCaiD, 12 February 2014 - 02:19 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

627, on 12 February 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

wolfpack is OP

seriously, swarming enemies with same looking mechs is as funny as deadly. Problem with it is, it only works on solo mechs or smaller groups.

If you have so many assaults you should always stay together and form a phalanx or two. As swarming is the best tactic for lights so is standing-next-to-eachother for assaults. Still, big kudos

Yeah, though we also were taking to those slopes and ridgebacks like a love child of Mujahidin and Mountain Goats and hitting them in their back even when they were together. But it would have been an even longer, uglier fight if we hadn't harassed em into some stupid moves. That's the beauty of (Simulated) combat (there is nothing beautiful about the real thing).... a huge chunk has nothing to do with better toys, or even who is the better twitch shooter.... but who can get inside who's head. I've seen plenty of guys I respect who are dang good at this game get goaded into doing something that was not a good idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

SgtKinCaiD, on 12 February 2014 - 02:16 AM, said:

As already stated in another thread, tonnage balance is only a small part of the problem concerning MM and stomps : when the loosing team has 3+ heavies/assault who can't break the 10 points marks, it's not a problem of tonnage. And a light player with a 2000 ELO score is a force to be reckoned with.

In this case, the loosing team has : a STK-3F who was probably AFK, a CN9-YLW and a VTR-DS who were barely awake, a CPLT-A1 and a AS7-D-DC who were useless. So basicaly it was a 12 vs 7 match, no wonder you win despite the 345 tons difference : the loosing team had 380 tons of dead meat.

Actually, the Stalker was my first Kill, he was not AFK, but he was trying to blast my teammates at 800 meters out with LRMs. He was taking splash hits on the front, so I went for his legs specifically so as not to alert him to a rear threat. LRMs generally are next to useless on Lights at that range, and he died not from being afk, but from having crappy situational awareness.

Since you weren't there, you can try to read into what you like, but as with the Stalker, you would be wrong. As for the YLW, Yiaz and Nonan neutered him early on, and trying to chase after a full speed lIght and do more than glancing damage with 2 mediums is generally an exercise in futility. The D-DC...well, can't say much for his skill one way or the other, the Atlas does draw an inordinate amount of bad players, but few Atlases with any player do much damage when wolfpacked by 4 lights, they simply cannot twist fast enough to respond effectively. And wolfpack him we did. If I recall the Catapult correctly, Yiaz and I teamed up on him took an ear off, then I finished the job. Stayed inside LRM range, and his SRM6s are not exactly the best weapon against Lights, between their crap hit detection and the fact that it takes a dang good gunner in the first place to consistently hit moving lights with SRMs.

Simple fact is I was driving a light, my targets didn't score much damage because if they had, I would have been dead. I find very few players in this game who respond effectively to organized chaos, and that is exactly what wwe unleashed.

Try to devalue it all you like, but it ain't gonna work.

[SgtKinCaiD]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Try to devalue it all you like, but it ain't gonna work.

Sorry it was not my first intention. It's just that, contrary to the numerous threads on the subject, the problem of the MM and stomps is not due to tonnage mismatch. And i'm sick to hear from PGI that the MM is working as intended and that tonnage limit coming in april will magicaly resolve stomps. It will not.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Actually, the Stalker was my first Kill, he was not AFK, but he was trying to blast my teammates at 800 meters out with LRMs. He was taking splash hits on the front, so I went for his legs specifically so as not to alert him to a rear threat. LRMs generally are next to useless on Lights at that range, and he died not from being afk, but from having crappy situational awareness.

Since you weren't there, you can try to read into what you like, but as with the Stalker, you would be wrong. As for the YLW, Yiaz and Nonan neutered him early on, and trying to chase after a full speed lIght and do more than glancing damage with 2 mediums is generally an exercise in futility. The D-DC...well, can't say much for his skill one way or the other, the Atlas does draw an inordinate amount of bad players, but few Atlases with any player do much damage when wolfpacked by 4 lights, they simply cannot twist fast enough to respond effectively. And wolfpack him we did. If I recall the Catapult correctly, Yiaz and I teamed up on him took an ear off, then I finished the job. Stayed inside LRM range, and his SRM6s are not exactly the best weapon against Lights, between their crap hit detection and the fact that it takes a dang good gunner in the first place to consistently hit moving lights with SRMs.

Simple fact is I was driving a light, my targets didn't score much damage because if they had, I would have been dead. I find very few players in this game who respond effectively to organized chaos, and that is exactly what wwe unleashed.

See, you nailed it : those players you mentionned, guess what ? They are new/bad players. Why are they facing regular veterans ? Why don't they have their own match with people of their level so that they can enjoin the game and not be crushed in match where they don't belong ? Because they are here to compensate for the rest of the team : to level down their team.
And talking about the rest of the loosing team, even though it was a one sided match, they still managed to get 5 kills with relatively low damage count and i can fairely bet that the ones who got the kills were the last to die. How can I say that ? Because i've experienced this situation countless times since the introduction of ELO ratings.

Edited by SgtKinCaiD, 12 February 2014 - 03:06 AM.

[The Silent Protagonist]

Mmmhmmm, it pains my Lyran soul to say it, but tonnage is not everything. Tonnage AND high calibre rounds? Yes. However that is not always used due to people not comprehending the advantages of more AC/20. Case in point? I'm rolling my HBK-4G(F) - AC/20 and three MLs. I ended up face to face with an atlas, myself on about 60% armor evenly spread, him on about 80% evenly spread. He thought he could pew-pew me to oblivion but I kept moving and kept twisting to spread that damage whilst all the time being able to place my AC/20 round on his centre torso. I lost my left torso which was borderline red armour at the start of my story, he got cored in an embarrassing failure of assault-fu. As Bishop said, mech-fu is the king, tonnage can be a dead weight if you don't know how to use it. As has been said multiple times in this thread, superior knowledge and tactics is the key, tonnage is just a nice bonus and MM needs to account for that. How? Don't ask me, I'm a Lyran. I just fire vast sums of coin out of an AC/20 to kill my foes.

[SgtKinCaiD]

We feel the same Lt XKalibur : a high ELO player is even deadlier lesser the tonnage. While in a heavy/assault, you can still make mistakes because your armor can take it, in a light no. And the lack of firepower is compensate by elusiveness and situation awareness.

Edited by SgtKinCaiD, 12 February 2014 - 05:53 AM.

[warner2]

It isn't popular belief that the assault is a replacement for good mech-fu.

What made you think it was?

Only really bad players in Atlases think they are going to do well because they weigh 100 tons. Speaking of which, there was such a player on the opposite team, along with a (C) Stalker that did 0 damage and some dude in an A1 that did 5.

This is just another example of the lottery that is PUG matches.

[SgtKinCaiD]

warner2, on 12 February 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

This is just another example of the lottery that is PUG matches.

It's not a lottery : the MM selected those players on purpose.