12 replies to this topic

[Kazma]

Everyone know these things are being overused and often do ridiulous damage and destroys parts of an enemy mech, for example the HEAD.
Or in my case (Jenner @152Kp/H) I got my leg cut off from an arty I didn't see, plus ended up with a red side and center torso. Or a 100% armor Atlas getting killed with one shot because it hit a ammo rack. (sad but funny^^)

How about just
spreading the damage on all parts of a 'Mech.
This way there at least won't be any more headshots or other luckshots possible.
I'd also reduce the damage to 30 per shell but maybe thats asking too much.

Edited by Kazma, 12 February 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Kazma, on 12 February 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

Everyone know these things are being overused and often do ridiulous damage and destroys parts of an enemy mech, for example the HEAD.
Or in my case (Jenner @152Kp/H) I got my leg cut off from an arty I didn't see, plus ended up with a red side and center torso. Or a 100% armor Atlas getting killed with one shot because it hit a ammo rack. (sad but funny^^)

How about just
spreading the damage on all parts of a 'Mech.
This way there at least won't be any more headshots or other luckshots possible.
I'd also reduce the damage to 30 per shell but maybe thats asking too much.

How about moving your mech?

[Kazma]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

How about moving your mech?

I am, but most others aren't and it still happens that mechs aren't fast enough or the arty is placed out of your sight and you don't notice it early enough, but thats not the problem here.
I'm talking about the possible luckshots (heat,legs and other parts being destroyed)

[Craig Steele]

Kazma, on 12 February 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

I am, but most others aren't and it still happens that mechs aren't fast enough or the arty is placed out of your sight and you don't notice it early enough, but thats not the problem here.
I'm talking about the possible luckshots (heat,legs and other parts being destroyed)

Its fine as is imo.

In game its limited to a small number of times being a consumable (and you have to be incredibly unlucky to be the target every time)

Its easily avoidable, just keep moving. Wanna stop in that perfect position for your pop tart attack, roll the dice and take your chances.

The chances of dying to a head shot are less than the chances of dying to the one shot meta and the people I hear screaming about this the most are the one shot meta players who are upset they can get hit behind cover they have been sitting at for 5 minutes waiting for a target.

There is just as much skill in pressing "fire' once as there is in pressing "artillery' once, but the pop tart can re use it all day so he has the advantage anyway.

All you need to do is keep moving and artillery is all but useless. If you stand still, it's not artillery's fault.

[Corvus Antaka]

The primary gripe is that it's easier to get headshots with arty/air than with aiming. headshot is supposed to be a difficult manuever, PGI has continually shrunk head hitboxes, and now with these arty/air headshots its created a silly situation.

[Craig Steele]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 February 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

The primary gripe is that it's easier to get headshots with arty/air than with aiming. headshot is supposed to be a difficult manuever, PGI has continually shrunk head hitboxes, and now with these arty/air headshots its created a silly situation.

Well yes, which is kinda the other way of looking at my point.

If all those meta players were taking out a mech by hitting the head, well I could see the point in discussing Artillery.

But they're not, they are taking the cheaper shot by coring a CT and dead is still dead.

As soon as this pop tart one shot garbage is gone, then maybe there is an argument for this.

[Rando Slim]

I really dont get it it. Ive never been "one-shotted" in a 12 man drop. And I pilot Mediums in those situations. Yea I have been killed in like 3-5 seconds when 2 or 3 Meta landers snipe me but literally getting one shotted is mathematically almost impossible. Arty strike however, can blow my leg off or my weapon arm in one shot or certainly 2 shells as im trying to escape and I might as well be dead at that point. Heck I have been one shotted by arty. Move you say? Well that certainly works but sometimes I HAVE to stand still to actually hit what little shred of exposed enemy mech I can see because they just turtle up and send out lights to drop arty. Arty/Air strike is ENTIRELY too powerful, 25 or 30 points per shell would be PLENTY of damage still. Teams that can supposedly "one-shot" STILL pack arty anyway, so instead of just one game breaking mechanic there are essentially two. The whole keep moving suggestion is true, however sometimes people are.....you know......"good" at placing the arty where you dont see it until its too late, or you are zoomed in trying to hit whatever peeked out to drop it so you dont see it. Thats the whole point or no one would bother with it, to put it slightly behind the enemy so they dont see it. I just cant wrap my head around how two terribly unbalanced things is better than just one. I HATE arty strike the whole game in 12 mans is essentially who lands more arty strikes its bullshit, its ******* AC/40 s from the sky for cripes sake! How is that fair or enjoyable? It crits whatever it hits in one shell, it does the work for you, reducing the skill needed to kill things. I played a match on canyon network where my team literally never saw anybody to fight, they just used about 10 ******* artys and cleaned up with a bunch of Jenner Fs. This game is about MECH combat, not real warfare simulation through air superiority. Jeebus next theyre gonna have a module that introduces the ******* Sattelite Orbital Laser (SOL) from Akira.

I propose to make it so that if you want AC/40s from the sky you gotta work for it. Make it so that you have to have a UAV over the enemy to be able to activate the arty/airstrike and then it can only be fired at a point within a coordinate using the battlemap. This will allow the UAV more of a use, and it means you can shoot the UAV down to prevent arty from coming in. And the lights still have something to do but now cant just function as a ******* arty/airstrike mule, and actually have to expose themselves or risk getting intercepted to get that UAV up, a fair price to pay losing a light in exchange for heavenly barrage of AC 40s.. I think this makes the game more strategically interesting and allows a way to defend against arty if you take out the UAV quickly and without some arbitrary limit like only allowing 3-4 per team as some propose. Either that, or make it so theres an arty strike cockpit warning similar to lrms.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 13 February 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Scrotacus 42, on 13 February 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I really dont get it it. Ive never been "one-shotted" (1) in a 12 man drop. And I pilot Mediums in those situations. Yea I have been killed in like 3-5 seconds when 2 or 3 Meta landers snipe me but literally getting one shotted is mathematically almost impossible. Arty strike however, can blow my leg off in one shot or certainly 2 shells as im trying to escape and I might as well be dead at that point. Heck I have been one shotted by arty. Move you say? Well that certainly works but sometimes I HAVE to stand still to actually hit (2) what little shred of exposed enemy mech I can see because they just turtle up and send out lights to drop arty. Arty/Air strike is ENTIRELY too powerful, 25 or 30 points per shell would be PLENTY of damage still. Teams that can supposedly "one-shot" STILL pack arty anyway, so instead of just one game breaking mechanic there are essentially two. The whole keep moving suggestion is true, however sometimes people are.....you know......"good" at placing the arty (3) where you dont see it until its too late, or you are zoomed in trying to hit whatever peeked out to drop it so you dont see it. Thats the whole point or no one would bother with it, to put it slightly behind the enemy so they dont see it. I just cant wrap my head around how two terribly unbalanced things is better than just one. I HATE arty strike the whole game in 12 mans is essentially who lands more arty strikes its bullshit, its ******* AC/40 s from the sky for cripes sake! How is that fair or enjoyable? I played a match on canyon network where my team literally never saw anybody to fight, they just used about 10 ******* artys and cleaned up with a bunch of Jenner Fs. This game is about MECH combat (4), not real warfare simulation through air superiority. Jeebus next theyre gonna have a module that introduces the ******* Sattelite Orbital Laser (SOL) from Akira.

I propose to make it so that if you want AC/40s from the sky you gotta work for it. Make it so that you have to have a UAV over the enemy to be able to activate the arty/airstrike and then it can only be fired at a point within a coordinate using the battlemap. This will allow the UAV more of a use, and it means you can shoot the UAV down to prevent arty from coming in. And the lights still have something to do but now cant just function as a ******* arty/airstrike mule. I think this makes the game more strategically interesting and allows a way to defend against arty if you take out the UAV quickly and without some arbitrary limit like only allowing 3-4 per team as some propose.

(1) I have, even with max armour, and there are lots of other posters who express similar on different threads.

(2) Pilot issue, not a mechanic. Don't change the mechanics to suit an individual pilot.

(3) Yes, there are some skilled snipers to. Can't take that away from either side though.

(4) Yes, so if we can do away with the sniping meta and get on with "Mech Combat" we can do away with artillery. But as long as there are pop tarters one shotting torso's, then artillery has a place.

[Rando Slim]

@Craig: (and I mean no offense and Im not trying to pick a fight, please understand that)

1): Fine, ok. Im sure it will happen to me eventually.

2): No thats not a pilot issue, thats a strategic issue created by the meta, at least IMO. Im not saying do nothing about the meta either. Again two broken things is worse than one. I can deal with getting pop-tarted, that takes at least some skill. I cant deal with getting arty to death that takes no skill and makes me want to drown kittens. I can shoot back at poptarters and trade blows with them when they jump. I cant kill an arty mule Jenner F in the 0.5 seconds it peeks over a ridge and drops arty and blows off my dakka arm or whatever.

3): I dont see the relevance of cherry-picking this excerpt. The question is "is arty too strong", the clear answer to that is yes. Its function would be served just fine at 25 or 30 damage per shell instead of 40. I havent seen anyone argue otherwise. The presence of skilled snipers doesnt precipitate introducing another broken mechanic that doesnt effectively counter snipers because gee THE SNIPERS ALSO GET TO USE THE OTHER BROKEN MECHANIC. Twin ER large wielding Raven 3Ls use them all the time, hell EVERYONE packs them all the time, theres no reason not to. And why is that? MAybe because it is clearly a component of the most dominant and only worthwhile strategy (aka meta)?. The fact that team composition hasnt changed hardly at all since making arty this strong proves this. If anything it has cemented it as now you need to be in a meta mech to survive arty.

4): Im glad we at least agree here in part. Again, despite my vehemence, I didnt say "get rid of arty", I agree it has a place, but its just too damn strong. End Of Story. Prove to me that 30 damage per shell would ruin arty or change its function. I like the idea of arty as an alternative to lrms to force a team to move. I get that. If your good, maybe you can even force them into an area you can shoot them, bravo! But to be able to just take out 20-30 percent of the armor of multiple mechs at once with a perfect spot, and with little to no risk or skill involved, and to be able to do that 24 times per match is a little steep I think and obviously Im not alone.

And finally, I wonder what people think of my idea about requiring UAV over the enemy to activate arty via a coordinate on the battlemap.
\
And to the OP: yes I would be ok with your idea of spreading the damage if nothing else is willing to be done about it. It would improve the situation a little. Im sorry if you feel Im hijacking your thread, not trying to. Like you, I feel very strongly about this topic.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 13 February 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Scrotacus 42, on 13 February 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

@Craig: (and I mean no offense and Im not trying to pick a fight, please understand that)

1): Fine, ok. Im sure it will happen to me eventually.

2): No thats not a pilot issue, thats a strategic issue created by the meta, at least IMO. Im not saying do nothing about the meta either. Again two broken things is worse than one. I can deal with getting pop-tarted, that takes at least some skill. I cant deal with getting arty to death that takes no skill and makes me want to drown kittens. I can shoot back at poptarters and trade blows with them when they jump. I cant kill an arty mule Jenner F in the 0.5 seconds it peeks over a ridge and drops arty and blows off my dakka arm or whatever.

3): I dont see the relevance of cherry-picking this excerpt. The question is "is arty too strong", the clear answer to that is yes. Its function would be served just fine at 25 or 30 damage per shell instead of 40. I havent seen anyone argue otherwise. The presence of skilled snipers doesnt precipitate introducing another broken mechanic that doesnt effectively counter snipers because gee THE SNIPERS ALSO GET TO USE THE OTHER BROKEN MECHANIC. Twin ER large wielding Raven 3Ls use them all the time, hell EVERYONE packs them all the time, theres no reason not to. And why is that? MAybe because it is clearly a component of the most dominant and only worthwhile strategy (aka meta)?. The fact that team composition hasnt changed hardly at all since making arty this strong proves this. If anything it has cemented it as now you need to be in a meta mech to survive arty.

4): Im glad we at least agree here in part. Again, despite my vehemence, I didnt say "get rid of arty", I agree it has a place, but its just too damn strong. End Of Story. Prove to me that 30 damage per shell would ruin arty or change its function. I like the idea of arty as an alternative to lrms to force a team to move. I get that. If your good, maybe you can even force them into an area you can shoot them, bravo! But to be able to just take out 20-30 percent of the armor of multiple mechs at once with a perfect spot, and with little to no risk or skill involved, and to be able to do that 24 times per match is a little steep I think and obviously Im not alone.

And finally, I wonder what people think of my idea about requiring UAV over the enemy to activate arty via a coordinate on the battlemap.
\
And to the OP: yes I would be ok with your idea of spreading the damage if nothing else is willing to be done about it. It would improve the situation a little. Im sorry if you feel Im hijacking your thread, not trying to. Like you, I feel very strongly about this topic.

Yep, no anger here, just dialogue.

2, It is a pilot issue. If you have trouble shooting accuratly while moving (as you said was the case) then that is an issue for you (or any) pilot to practice. The game has several mechanics to make that hard (undulating terrain for example) so the skill is not one that can be taken for granted. I'm no pro at it myself, I know its hard. But mech combat is about maneuvering in the BT world so any meta game (like pop tarting) that involves standing still needs an effective counter. It takes just as much 'skill' to one shot a torso as it does to plant an arty round.

3. I disagree strongly. If it was weaker, it would pose no threat to the pop tarter. He won't move, he'll just laugh it off and keep doing his thing. The point of it being an effective counter is that it does pose a threat. So the sniper who wants to camp must take a risk to execute his strategy. There is nothing wrong with that. But to nerf artillery is to remove an effective counter. Arguably given the limited use of artillery and it's effective mainly against stationary targets, pop tarting still has a significant advantage.

Yes both sides get to use it, but consider this extreme example. 12 poptarts with artillery vs 12 fast medium with artillery. The Pop tarts use of artillery will be reasonably ineffective due to the speed of the enemy, they keep moving. If the poptarts stand still to utilise their meta, they risk destruction. Do you see what I'm getting at. The fact that everyone can use it doesn't mean it's OP unless everyone is a good artillery target. If you're moving you're not.

4. I think I demonstrated above that nerfing artillery will empower the sniper / poptarting meta further. I get how those who are propenents of this meta will scream loudly to nerf artillery and it would be a real shame if PGI do because quite simply, it's an effective counter to a meta that is detrimental to the gameplay. For players attempting to conduct a fast moving high skilled mech combat game artillery is of no consequence. So basically, nerf artillery and you are empowering the poptart meta. I'm not saying snipers have no place, I am saying they should have greater risks for such an OP one shot game play style.

Artillery will only hurt you if you stand still.

[Rando Slim]

Ok cool I get what your saying I mean yes arty is ineffective mostly when you constantly move we all know that.. I guess we will agree to disagree on the strength of arty. I personally, will not "shrug off" 30 point shells as opposed to 40, thats still a LOT of damage. When it was only 15 points of damage yea it was laughable but at 30 i think thats plenty, I mean c'mon thats a twin gauss-rifle, your telling me that doesnt hurt? But at 30 at least it means if Im caught off gaurd by it and Im not a poptarter Im not completely ****** because someone perfectly placed one 3 feet behind me and now my arm or leg is gone. At 40 points Im crit already in my CT, so then Im set up for an even easier kill than normal at the hands of the metalanders if they flush me out, and they really didnt have to lift a finger, the arty did the work for them. At 30 points I might be able to survive fighting an actual mech for at least long enough to fire back, but if I get hit by 2 or 3 artys yea Im done. Look if each team can drop 12-24 of these things the cumulative effect of getting hit by twin gauss rifles from the sky as opposed to jagerbombs fom the sky is still definitely significant over the course of a whole match. I also still disagree that it takes equivalent skill to one shot a side torso on the move or when a guy is in midair and to drop a well placed arty, but maybe thats just my lack of skill. I mean and its not like poptarters literally dont move either, even on the poptart friendly maps they leave enough space to where if they get hit by arty its only gonna be one MAYBE two of them and thats why its not THAT effective of a counter.

And trust me, I do MOVE I play a lrm shadowhawk or treb or PPC cicada in 12 mans, but I still get hit by them occasionally when people put them in the right spots. My whole unit we try to stay above 70kph and call out arty and keep moving but it still doesnt always help when you encounter wave after wave of them your gonna get hit eventually and poptarters wait for you when you move. And even ONE shell can leg you after youve been nicked up a little. Like I get what you are saying I just think its been long enough that if it were that effective of a counter it would have shifted the meta a little bit, the fact were here having this discussion means that it really hasnt.

I guess its a difference of perspective. You look at it as a way to penalize people for abusing the meta. And I look at it as kind of a "cutting off your nose to spite your face" scenario where its an unbalanced overreaction that penalizes everyone because of the abuse of the meta. Anywho, thanks for explaining your side of it, o7.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 14 February 2014 - 01:26 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Scrotacus 42, on 14 February 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

its been long enough that if it were that effective of a counter it would have shifted the meta a little bit, the fact were here having this discussion means that it really hasnt.

Buff it then? 50 dmg????

[Sephlock]

Craig Steele, on 14 February 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

Buff it then? 50 dmg????

YES!