218 replies to this topic

[chaas]

I mean the Clan 'Mechs have more firepower and comparable armor to the IS lights. They must be a little slower. I'm not sure how much of this sort of thing is based on Clanners being upset over lore or Clanners being upset because they won't have vastly superior 'Mechs compared to the IS.

It's a little silly to feel entitled to an advantage simply because you're Clanners. It doesn't matter if that's how it was in the books and tabletop. This isn't. Check those egos tyvm.

[CyclonerM]

chaas, on 14 February 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

I mean the Clan 'Mechs have more firepower and comparable armor to the IS lights. They must be a little slower. I'm not sure how much of this sort of thing is based on Clanners being upset over lore or Clanners being upset because they won't have vastly superior 'Mechs compared to the IS.

I am fine with slow lights, you know. They are canon.

[IceSerpent]

John McFianna, on 14 February 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Heh no need for extreme defensive.. im eyeing for one of the small packages.. but wanted to see what people honestly thought of the Kit Fox & Adder.

Well, you can compare them to Stormcrow (55t, same exact speed) and draw your own conclusions. I guess it will boil down to hitboxes, but we don't know anything about that part yet.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

To me the problem is not with a certain mech chassis or the speed at which it can travel. The problem is deeper. Since CW will revolve around territorial gains to further one's economic goals, the fact that both factions will be "equal" and balanced will mean that the Clans will hit a brick wall upon arrival. It means that they won't be able to penetrate the Inner Sphere to anywhere near the extent they did in reality. The only way that could happen is if PGI gives them the worlds in an "arbitrary" manner or that the pilots on the clan side will be significantly better than their IS counterparts. That's why, to me, the clans are possibly DOA - they won't be able to expand into the IS since they'll be facing similar opposition.

In lore, they clans penetrated deep into the IS and started to encounter stiffer opposition as time went on because of two factors. One being the IS adapting to the new tactics and two, they also started to adopt and adapt clan tech. Sure, by Tukkayid both factions weren't exactly matched up equally, but the IS started to mount a far more serious challenge to the clans.

I realize that PGI doesn't want an arms-race and I see why, but an arms-race can only happen when two factions are equally matched. Here, they aren't, sure they have the same damage potential, but one has thousands of planets to back it up with production and infrastructure whereas the clans have none. That's why my ideal proposition would be simply start giving the IS access to "adpoted or adapted" technology as time goes on and the clans conquer more turf. Sure, the first few weeks would be rough for the IS, but if they implement a chance to drop CLAN tech from every clanner you kill, it would make it more bearable. I understand that they don't want to make present mechs obsolete, but they have to realize that they DO become obsolete in their present iterations. That's why by 3060, only 10 yeas after the invasion, the IS is already hard at work not only adapting clan tech but also coming out with it's own equivalent technologies.

In short, unless PGI interferes or the clans have a large advantage in terms of pilot skills, there will be a stalemate at the very point of initial contact with the clans. Furthermore, if the IS were to present a common front (which is not impossible) then they could conceivably squeeze out the clans by simply swarming them. Let's face it, the initial invasion will be spearheaded by the guys who actually spent real money to get the clan mechs. This also means that heavy mechs could conceivably be rarer on the initial invasion since, well, $240 is rather steep. So worst case scenario, the clans are stuck with far lighter forces, being heavily outnumbered, against an enemy that's not only far larger, more organized but also has the backing of the entier IS. That's how utterly destroy the clans within a few short days of the initial invasion.

[Tesunie]

Lysander Voidrunner, on 14 February 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

To me the problem is not with a certain mech chassis or the speed at which it can travel. The problem is deeper. Since CW will revolve around territorial gains to further one's economic goals, the fact that both factions will be "equal" and balanced will mean that the Clans will hit a brick wall upon arrival. It means that they won't be able to penetrate the Inner Sphere to anywhere near the extent they did in reality. The only way that could happen is if PGI gives them the worlds in an "arbitrary" manner or that the pilots on the clan side will be significantly better than their IS counterparts. That's why, to me, the clans are possibly DOA - they won't be able to expand into the IS since they'll be facing similar opposition.

In lore, they clans penetrated deep into the IS and started to encounter stiffer opposition as time went on because of two factors. One being the IS adapting to the new tactics and two, they also started to adopt and adapt clan tech. Sure, by Tukkayid both factions weren't exactly matched up equally, but the IS started to mount a far more serious challenge to the clans.

I realize that PGI doesn't want an arms-race and I see why, but an arms-race can only happen when two factions are equally matched. Here, they aren't, sure they have the same damage potential, but one has thousands of planets to back it up with production and infrastructure whereas the clans have none. That's why my ideal proposition would be simply start giving the IS access to "adpoted or adapted" technology as time goes on and the clans conquer more turf. Sure, the first few weeks would be rough for the IS, but if they implement a chance to drop CLAN tech from every clanner you kill, it would make it more bearable. I understand that they don't want to make present mechs obsolete, but they have to realize that they DO become obsolete in their present iterations. That's why by 3060, only 10 yeas after the invasion, the IS is already hard at work not only adapting clan tech but also coming out with it's own equivalent technologies.

In short, unless PGI interferes or the clans have a large advantage in terms of pilot skills, there will be a stalemate at the very point of initial contact with the clans. Furthermore, if the IS were to present a common front (which is not impossible) then they could conceivably squeeze out the clans by simply swarming them. Let's face it, the initial invasion will be spearheaded by the guys who actually spent real money to get the clan mechs. This also means that heavy mechs could conceivably be rarer on the initial invasion since, well, $240 is rather steep. So worst case scenario, the clans are stuck with far lighter forces, being heavily outnumbered, against an enemy that's not only far larger, more organized but also has the backing of the entier IS. That's how utterly destroy the clans within a few short days of the initial invasion.

Though I understand what you say, let me just bring up one thing:
- If this is implemented, what keeps everyone from not just joining a clan, and playing the Clan tech that is killing them? Then, the IS starts to become a ghost town, with far less opposition to the clans. As the IS continues to lose more and more, more and more people will "change" to the winning side, making it even worse and worse.

People in video games have a tendency to "join the better team" with no regard to lore or backstory. If one side has "what they want", they will join that team. When all they see changing is their bird going from purple to green, they aren't going to care.

Personally, I'm a die hard and don't mind being an underdog, but even I would have my limits of "having my butt kicked and joining with what works". For example, I play Warhammer 40k. I played Tau as my first army, and did well with them. Then, they updated the Space Marines and other Codexes. Suddenly, I couldn't win anymore. I tried to stick through with it, but eventually ended up "can't beat them, join them" and started to play Space Marines as well, as I couldn't "play" with my Tau any longer. (Of course, when 6th edition came out, I dropped my Marines and brought out the Tau again, and then finally got a new codex...)

[Thorn Hallis]

Who knows, maybe PGI will balance the slower speeds with superior agility (turn/twist/acceleration rate).

[Crockdaddy]

Maps with better cover / terrain (read this as trees which do more than just obstruct vision) large rocks etc would help lights immensely. Commandos would benefit from more terrain. Imaging in a city being closed in by a few heavy mechs or tall mediums ... the commando runs under a bridge or between buildings that the bigger mechs cannot follow.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Though I understand what you say, let me just bring up one thing:
- If this is implemented, what keeps everyone from not just joining a clan, and playing the Clan tech that is killing them? Then, the IS starts to become a ghost town, with far less opposition to the clans. As the IS continues to lose more and more, more and more people will "change" to the winning side, making it even worse and worse.

People in video games have a tendency to "join the better team" with no regard to lore or backstory. If one side has "what they want", they will join that team. When all they see changing is their bird going from purple to green, they aren't going to care.

Personally, I'm a die hard and don't mind being an underdog, but even I would have my limits of "having my butt kicked and joining with what works". For example, I play Warhammer 40k. I played Tau as my first army, and did well with them. Then, they updated the Space Marines and other Codexes. Suddenly, I couldn't win anymore. I tried to stick through with it, but eventually ended up "can't beat them, join them" and started to play Space Marines as well, as I couldn't "play" with my Tau any longer. (Of course, when 6th edition came out, I dropped my Marines and brought out the Tau again, and then finally got a new codex...)

Very good point, however, the initial invasion WILL be done by people that spent money on clan mechs, which are outrageously expensive, in real world money terms. That in itself will limit the number of people. Then there is the fact that clan mechs themselves will be far more expensive in game than the mechs we have now. That's yet an other barrier to entry. Finally, it'll take about a month for people to get the ability to get clan mechs for c-bills, if not longer. By that time, PGI could include some sort of equalization process with a weapon salvage mechanic.

[Tesunie]

Lysander Voidrunner, on 14 February 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Very good point, however, the initial invasion WILL be done by people that spent money on clan mechs, which are outrageously expensive, in real world money terms. That in itself will limit the number of people. Then there is the fact that clan mechs themselves will be far more expensive in game than the mechs we have now. That's yet an other barrier to entry. Finally, it'll take about a month for people to get the ability to get clan mechs for c-bills, if not longer. By that time, PGI could include some sort of equalization process with a weapon salvage mechanic.

Not if people start saving for those mechs now...

And then, what do you do with people who join the Clans as soon as possible, but didn't (couldn't) buy into the clan pack? Are they suppose to just sit around and wish they could join? Not join that clan and earn loyalty for the IS they aren't interested in? What?

There are a lot of things to consider before one jumps to any decision or changes like this. All I'm really saying.

[CyclonerM]

Lysander Voidrunner, on 14 February 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Very good point, however, the initial invasion WILL be done by people that spent money on clan mechs, which are outrageously expensive, in real world money terms. That in itself will limit the number of people. Then there is the fact that clan mechs themselves will be far more expensive in game than the mechs we have now. That's yet an other barrier to entry. Finally, it'll take about a month for people to get the ability to get clan mechs for c-bills, if not longer. By that time, PGI could include some sort of equalization process with a weapon salvage mechanic.

What i do not get is this: Clan warriors do not (have to) buy their OmniMech. Of course in MWO we will have to buy them but we should buy them at reduced price at least. We can produce them while Spheroids have to salvage them so i udnerstand they are more expensive. After all, the Clan Omnies prices are in c-bills.

Edited by CyclonerM, 14 February 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Silence Jin Mang]

@Competitive argument
Meta is the "best", but it really is not. Unpredictability is the best. I`ve won against competition winning teams with a typical set up for my team, but an "obsolete" set of mechs actually won us the match. I unfortunately couldn't find the video of us taking on an EU comp team, but them in full meta builds with us with only three meta builds beat them. We had two DDC and one raven, my core to most of my 8-12 man builds, and three lo-wang`s with 1 hunchback, followed up by a Gauss kitty. We completely stomped them with a 8-1 just in the fact we had that unpredictability and the fact it countered the meta. Meta is great up until you add unpredictability and pilot skill. A pug in an AC20 Jager can dominate, but give a skilled player the same mech, and he`ll only do slightly better. Honestly meta makes it so the unskilled can do well, they are game breaking exploits, and I don't mean to slight pro`s but watching them play, take them out of the meta and they preform averagely. I think to judge something on a meta level is to only show what a game breaking advantage shows. I can beat almost any mech in a Lo-wang, and I`m willing to prove it, I`ve cut through three very skilled players then a tie with a fourth in 1v1`s in the same game, I believe that meta makes players, and therefore they dont develop the skill to use anything and make it work. Pariah makes a good point with League being a great example, the teams that vary their champions win, where as the teams that stick to pure meta lose. Meta is good in theory and the very beginning, but after a few matches, counters are developed and exploited. So, I think the low speed clan lights will make a new niche for themselves, I don't think they will be DOA, and I don't think comp teams will use them until a truly skilled comp team makes them work.

@The CW front
I think the lack of customization in engine lvls and armor type/structure type/heatsink type will drive people away from them. Less customization means less popularity. People like their ability to choose. I also don't see comp teams moving out proven designs to test out the potential flop of Clan mechs. I think the Clan mechs will be less common than we think they will.

[ConanTheGamer]

The one I'm concerned about is the Nova. With 12 ER-medium lasers the mech is going to run so hot that it will be unusable on any map, much less the hot maps(Terra Therma, Caustic Valley, etc.).

[Pariah Devalis]

ConanTheGamer, on 14 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

The one I'm concerned about is the Nova. With 12 ER-medium lasers the mech is going to run so hot that it will be unusable on any map, much less the hot maps(Terra Therma, Caustic Valley, etc.).

Fortunately, nothing is stopping you from kicking out jump jets, extra ERMLas, or whatever to install additional DHS. The PRIME starts at 18 DHS (14 base, 4 additional for the configuration). Dropping out 2 ERMLas puts you at two neat groups of 5, and potentially room for 2 more DHS, bringing you up to 20 DHS. Still going to roast, but with each ERMLas spitting 7 damage out at ~600 meters, that is still a 70 point strike between the two arms, and just barely enough heat sinks to cool off between salvos. Fire, pull back, cool, return.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 February 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Tesunie]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 February 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Fortunately, nothing is stopping you from kicking out jump jets, extra ERMLas, or whatever to install additional DHS. The PRIME starts at 18 DHS (14 base, 4 additional for the configuration). Dropping out 2 ERMLas puts you at two neat groups of 5, and potentially room for 2 more DHS, bringing you up to 20 DHS. Still going to roast, but with each ERMLas spitting 7 damage out at ~600 meters, that is still a 70 point strike between the two arms, and just barely enough heat sinks to cool off between salvos. Fire, pull back, cool, return.

Stagger fire will be key for the Nova. But then again, we are debating stock versions. If that is the case, the stock version of almost any mech in the game roasts well here...

[Kanajashi]

I swear that every time I read a post by Koniving I come away feeling that he should be on the balance team

[shameless]

Stock Daishis Insane reach Insane firepower, they get more lethal as you close. And run hot enough that you could cook eggs on top of their arm pods...

[Vanguard319]

Speed is nice, but it isn't the be-all end-all for light mechs. The Kit Fox and Adder can both mount some crazy heavy weapons in some of their configurations. An Adder Prime doesn't need speed when it's all but guaranteed to cripple your spider with one shot. You can argue that Clan lights have thin armor, but that armor is still more effective than Inner Sphere FF, (PGI also mentioned that you would be able to adjust armor in their last Vlog.) also that Clan XL engine makes the mech more survivable than an IS light with the same engine type.

I'm guessing they went with these mechs because they want data on the effectiveness of light clan mechs before they unleash the 200+ kph demonic spiders that are Fire Moths.

Edited by Vanguard319, 14 February 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[ShadowDraconis]

CoffiNail, on 13 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

I do pretty damn well in a 97 kph Jenner with 2 LPL and a flamer... so, no. light mechs are not DOA.

Agreed, as a newer pilot lights are the bane of my existence. ; )

P.s. I currently pilot assaults.

[wanderer]

Let's remember that a Kit Fox can mount a Streak-6, stock.

That's quite the "get the heck away from me" choice for a light. Honestly, the two Clan lights work well together- same mobility, one can work really well as an energy sniper, the other one being quite capable of strapping in an LB-2X/Ultra-2 for long work and the Streak for anti-scout cover. Not fast enough to outrun IS lights, but outguns them. Scout hunters are gonna find it a workout. Stormcrows are basically extra-large Adders, and pack the same speed profile.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

No one here is taking into account that the clan lights will have the survivability of a standard engine IS light mech, with the speed and weapons of an XL IS medium. The Clan mechs, even the lights, are going to ******** the IS mechs. The clans are far from DOA in any fashion.

The Adder is basically this JR7-F, but instead of an easily blowable XL, it has a clan XL which for all intents and purposes is as survivable as an IS standard.

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Spoiler

Five words. Armor equality needs to go.

"Why not base max armor on stock?"

Let's face it. Mechs are NOT built equally. Wait, hear me out. There's a solution here.

Those that suck at weapons, speed, or both, have superior armor at Stock.

In a game where min-maxing is everything, having identical armor for all mechs of the same weight limits essentially obsoletes more than 75% of the mechs available in favor of those with superior speed, firepower or both.

If we're sacrificing tabletop rules as PGI did by imposing engine limits (inner sphere) higher or lower than is available to all variants of any mech in a weight class, as well as slapping hardpoints on them, and yet keeping the "you can't change Clan mech engines period" rule, then the number one rule that needs to go is the armor equality.

Consider this: Most of the under performing variants and mechs all start with superior armor to those that are superior in speed, firepower, or both. It's their one redeeming value. A value that currently every mech of the same weight class can do.

So what was the point? What's a solution? Well unlike Tabletop, the book lore does not agree with armor equality. In fact some books have quotes and references saying that for reasons other than money, mechs of the same weight class just can't have the same armor.

Spoiler

(As an example), "A Jagermech just can't compete toe to toe with a Catapult K2 in open ground. It's armor is just too thick and even with a full crew and months to do it we can never match it's armor." "What are our options then?" "Terrain and a prayer."

Tabletop you can make that Jager wear the same armor. MWO you can. But the book lore says you can't for various reasons some realistic some completely made up. Well damn. Let's use that!

First, to credit JustWannaPlay, this idea is basically to use in his words: "They base the engine limits and hardpoints on stock. Why not armor? Use stock to decide armor." I just gave it a number and began pitching it.

The ideas:
Stock armor + 100 = new max. (It's a random, even, simple number. Can be any number so long as it's an even one.)
Or stock armor + a set # of tons additional armor = new max.

In either case we're essentially taking our finger to the equalizer on the stereo and raising all the sliders up by a set, even amount from their Stock values. This is literally stock armor + x amount, so the mech variant's original intention in armor is preserved and literally defines it's new maximum armor. If it's described as having paper thin armor, it will have paper thin armor. If it's described as being a walking damage sponge, it will become a walking damage sponge.

Let's compare some light mechs! (Sorry if this only uses Inner Sphere mechs but the idea is to apply it to the Clan mechs as well).

Fast mechs, Locusts, Jenner D, Cicadas, etc. Many of them have 128 armor.
Redeeming notes:

Spoiler

Before you freak out...
Redeeming values to note: Structure is not changed. 20 ton mechs have 69 structure, 35 ton mechs have 119, Cicadas have 137. Even with identical armor Jenners will outlive Locusts, Cicadas will outlive Jenners in damage.

Cicadas only get 4 engine ratings above their current stock, but a Jenner gets more than 12 ratings, Cicadas need more speed as they are by stock faster than Jenners which makes up for the size. Their large size also allows them to still be hit even if well above 170 kph.

Modest lights. 2 of the Firestarters (2 at 176 armor and 2 at 208 armor), Raven 3-L (161) have decent armor.

SLOW lights, Raven 2x (208), 4x (234), and the Adder (Puma) have real armor. In fact the Raven 2x has armor comparable to 1 Shadowhawk. A 35 ton mech with equal armor to a 55 ton mech. Scary, isn't it? And the 4X? More.

Some mechs combine real armor, speed, and heat problems (Jenner F, 234).

That's just the stock values. The ideas of course are stock + 100 or stock + # tons of armor.

For each mech and variant, take the STOCK armor and add 100 or a set tonnage of armor to that as each new maximum limit. Bam. USEFUL slow light mechs as light brawlers. Some can compete on equal or superior footing to certain medium mechs in terms of armor.

But what will this do across the board?

Awesome versus Victor. Victor has superior firepower, speed, and manueverability. What did the Awesome have? Superior armor. Drastically superior armor. The 9M can't equip its stock armor. If it could, it would have over 500 points of armor.

Dragons. The Dragons have superior armor to two of the three 65 ton chassis mechs. But can they use it? Nope. The 1-C can't even equip its stock armor. Meanwhile the Quickdraws has about half its armor (even though at least one of them gains more from this than they currently can use) but make up for it in being able to carry more and lighter or simply better weaponry and being able to jump.

The Thunderbolt has armor comparable to a Stalker. The 9SE can't equip its stock armor.

Urbanmech versus Spider.

• The Urbanmech has 192 points of armor stock.
  
• The Spider has 112 stock.
  
  • Both are 30 ton mechs.
• The urban mech's top speed with how PGI does engine limits at it's largest possible engine cap is 62 kph With Speed Tweak.
  
  • Can it compare to a Spider in the current system with both having 210 armor max?
    
    • No.
• Stock, the Urbamech has 80 points of armor above the Spider to make up for the lack of speed.
  
  • After the change, the Spider gains 2 points of armor (current max 210, new max with stock 100 is 212) and the Urbanmech stays 80 points of armor ahead.
    
    • Both at stock and both at maximum, the difference in armor between 30 ton spider and 30 ton Urbanmech is 80 points of armor.
      
    • Can it compete now despite being slower than dirt? Yes. It's chances are about as fair as in Battletech.

It just keeps going across the board. Stock's intention is 100% preserved. The Battletech feel is brought forth. The mechs get more flavor and diversity. The slow lights can actually have a purpose. Win-win-win!


The difference between the two similar ideas? Examples?

Spoiler

Note that with both concepts, the time to kill on Strong, Powerful mechs generally goes ~down~ and time to kill on weaker mechs generally goes ~up~.

For the most part this is just to complete the meddling that PGI has done, as all Ravens, all Jenners, etc. in the 35 ton class can use the same engines by tabletop rules. With limits on them and weapon hardpoints slapped on we get partial identifying characteristics. But lost is the most important defining part about each mech and variant: It's unique armor identity.

My idea, inspired by JustWannaPlay (Why not base armor on stock for each mech?) and WayBadMojo (A Jager should never be able to carry this much armor. This isn't a Jager, it's a miniature Atlas.)

Stock + 100.
Using 2 variants of a Shadowhawk and a Kintaro as an example.
Current max armor for 55 ton mechs. 370 armor.
Current structure (maintained, NOT CHANGED) = 185 structure.

• SHD-2D2: Stock armor: 208. + 100 new max 308. (Armor of a Raven 2X!)
  
• SHD-5M: Stock armor 336. + 100 new max 436. (Armor of a Centurion AL; best Centurion armor).
  
• KTO-18: Stock armor 352. + 100 new max 452. (Trumps all Shadowhawks in armor.)
  
• Golden Boy: Stock armor 368. + 100 new max 468. (Makes up for lack of speed with high max armor.)

The same mechs again, with the + set tons concept by Buckminister which is to allow Ferro to be worth something. We'll use 3 tons as the universal higher armor limit.

Note: 1 ton Standard Armor = 32 points.
1 ton Ferro armor = 36 points. (Yes, the intention is to break another stupid rule for balance's sake.)
Using 3 tons again. + 96 standard, + 108 (+ stock armor tons * 4).

• SHD-2D2: Stock armor: 208. + 3 tons standard = new standard max 304. (Armor of a Raven 2X!)
  
  • Stock armor 208 + 3 tons when set to Ferro = (6.5 tons + 3 tons * 36 per ton) = 342 Ferro Max.
• SHD-5M: Stock armor 336. + 3 tons standard = new standard max 304. (Armor of a Centurion AL; best Centurion armor).
  
  • 10.5 tons armor + 3 tons armor set to ferro = 378 Ferro Max.
• KTO-18: Stock armor 352. + 96 new max 448. (Trumps all Shadowhawks in armor.)
  
  • 11 tons of armor + 3 tons set at ferro = 504 Ferro Max.
• Golden Boy: Stock armor 368. + 96 new max 464. (Makes up for lack of speed with high max armor.)
  
  • 11.5 tons of armor + 3 tons set at ferro = 522 Ferro Max.

Ultimately the idea of adding this is to diversify the playing field for more than "Firepower," "Speed," "Firepower and Speed," or Gimped.

It'll now be firepower, speed, armor, firepower and armor, firepower and speed, speed and armor, or a jack in the middle.

(Sorry for all the edits and quotes you probably got.)
(Last edit I swear. Done.)

I fully agree with this. Too much cookie cutter in this game currently.


As a final note. There's the right way, the wrong way, and then the PGI way.