218 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

depending on my stay during the fiasco implementation. people are saying DOA because they're thinking in terms of what they're used to dominating, fast alpha strikers.

so i'm looking forward to either being a behind the lines sniper which has been proven viable by ravens and locusts defied their DOA with some 600+ damage performances with this tactic.

then there's my own thoughts on SSRMS. would packing those mean that any smart alec trying to run rings around would get continuosly pummeled whilst the other pilot has to aim at speed? it's pure theory and needs testing for possible builds and pilot reactions but i wouldn't rule it out. Kitfoxes and adders arn't exactly DOA but their roles are damn limited.

JohanssenJr, on 14 February 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

No one here is taking into account that the clan lights will have the survivability of a standard engine IS light mech.

since when did a clan xl survive both ST's been taken out?

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 February 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Koniving]

GalaxyBluestar, on 14 February 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

since when did a clan xl survive both ST's been taken out?

Stock rules, that and Vblog#2.
You must destroy 3 slots of an engine to destroy an XL engine. Each side torso of a Clan mech's XL engine has only 2. One side torso gone = 2 slots out of 3 destroyed.

[Craig Steele]

Clan lights will have their place, but the current omnis available will not be the hit run raiders the Jenner and spider are.

Pilots will need to change their game to get the most out of the current Omni lights.

Hunter killer will be a very plausiable mission for Clan lights, protecting the back field from raiders for example. They will be quite durable with Clan XL and Case everywhere so in a one vs one light battle they will certainly have an edge even if weapons are comparable. And they will pack a big punch too.

[Vanguard319]

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Stock rules, that and Vblog#2.
You must destroy 3 slots of an engine to destroy an XL engine. Each side torso of a Clan mech's XL engine has only 2. One side torso gone = 2 slots out of 3 destroyed.

True, Clan XL are not as survivable as a standard, as a standard can keep going with both torsos gone, but they are more survivable than an IS XL. Add the slighly better protection per ton of clan FF armor, and Clan lights can take more of a beating than their IS counterparts.

[ConanTheGamer]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 February 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Fortunately, nothing is stopping you from kicking out jump jets, extra ERMLas, or whatever to install additional DHS. The PRIME starts at 18 DHS (14 base, 4 additional for the configuration). Dropping out 2 ERMLas puts you at two neat groups of 5, and potentially room for 2 more DHS, bringing you up to 20 DHS. Still going to roast, but with each ERMLas spitting 7 damage out at ~600 meters, that is still a 70 point strike between the two arms, and just barely enough heat sinks to cool off between salvos. Fire, pull back, cool, return.

Yes those are something that can make it a SOMEWHAT viable mech. But the problem is the ghost heat. Unless PGI doesn't use ghost heat for the clan mech's. PGI has played with the meta so much that if you add something completely new (lets say Clan Mechs) it could screw everything else up. That (and the c-bill cut they did a while back) is the main that pisses me off about the game now.

[Pariah Devalis]

ConanTheGamer, on 14 February 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Yes those are something that can make it a SOMEWHAT viable mech. But the problem is the ghost heat. Unless PGI doesn't use ghost heat for the clan mech's. PGI has played with the meta so much that if you add something completely new (lets say Clan Mechs) it could screw everything else up. That (and the c-bill cut they did a while back) is the main that pisses me off about the game now.

"Somewhat" is selling it short. Left arm. Wait half a second. Right arm. Ghost heat avoided. Really, not a significant issue with practice. Meanwhile, the meta needs to be shaken up now and then, so that is not a bad thing.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I eat meta builds for breakfast.

[Craig Steele]

BLOOD WOLF, on 14 February 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

I eat meta builds for breakfast.

What do you do for 2nd breakfast? Elevenses ? Luncheon? Afternoon Tea? Dinner? Supper? You know about them right?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Craig Steele, on 14 February 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

What do you do for 2nd breakfast? Elevenses ? Luncheon? Afternoon Tea? Dinner? Supper? You know about them right?

do i taste lord of the rings?

[Silence Jin Mang]

Plus ghost heat doesn't hurt those who know how to manage heat. I for one exploit it all the damn time, if I find someone who is managing their weapons poorly and overheating, I`m killing him while he`s down. Simple as that, ghost heat is a skill balance not a mechanical one. It makes it so if you run those high alpha builds you better know how to manage their heat.

[Craig Steele]

BLOOD WOLF, on 14 February 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

do i taste lord of the rings?

One Meta to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them............

[BLOOD WOLF]

Craig Steele, on 14 February 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

One Meta to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them............

XD

[GalaxyBluestar]

Koniving, on 14 February 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Stock rules, that and Vblog#2.
You must destroy 3 slots of an engine to destroy an XL engine. Each side torso of a Clan mech's XL engine has only 2. One side torso gone = 2 slots out of 3 destroyed.

no you misunderstood me. i'm questioning the statement that a clan light is survivable as an IS std engine. a std engine has all it's slots in the center torso so only the CT has to be destoryed for death. an clan xl as you rightly point out need 3 slots destroyed so it's either both ST's for death or the CT. so that mean the IS std engine can survive with both ST's gone unlike a clan xl. have i misread this bit?

JohanssenJr, on 14 February 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

No one here is taking into account that the clan lights {with clan xls} will have the survivability of a standard engine IS light mech.

they won't, they can't zombie, no clan mech can. that's what i was saying. we're both in agreement.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 February 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[Craig Steele]

GalaxyBluestar, on 14 February 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

no you misunderstood me. i'm questioning the statement that a clan light is survivable as an IS std engine. a std engine has all it's slots in the center torso so only the CT has to be destoryed for death. an clan xl as you rightly point out need 3 slots destroyed so it's either both ST's for death or the CT. so that mean the IS std engine can survive with both ST's gone unlike a clan xl. have i misread this bit?

But to get through two side torso's means getting through more armour than a IS CT.

So yeah, Clan mechs have better durability overall as getting to critical components sufficient to take it out requires more firepower application.

[aniviron]

I'm not going to call them DOA, but here's the thing:

Lights are easy to kill. They just don't have enough armor. IS lights get exactly as much armor as clan lights. But lights are designed for a game in which you can have two Kitfoxes if your opponent brings a Timberwolf, thanks to battle value balancing. In MWO, the Kitfox is expected to have equal value to the Timberwolf, because the game revolves around being equal player counts.

No matter how you slice it, one AC20 gets your CT in the red, even with less than 10 rear CT armor. 2 opens you up. Then it just takes a tap and you're a smoking ruin. The reason that nobody plays slow lights in this game is the simple fact that the slower you are, the easier it is to hit you with an AC20 or 2PPC or whatever ballistics the big boys are bringing. There are a few people here who say that they can get 37 kills a round in their 80kph Jenners, and while I'm very happy for them, the people I play with look at lights that slow the same way a lion looks at a gazelle. You're just not fast enough to avoid taking fire.

There has been a lot of speculation here that it won't matter that the clan lights are slow thanks to their incredible firepower/size ratio. There are two things to consider about this: first, extra firepower is a double-edged sword. If lights wind up having to face opponents that have cSSRM6 launchers, well, that's it, there's never going to be any more lights. SSRM2s are already far too good against lights, and SSRM6s at clan weights are going to be game over for any lights that have to face that. The other thing I see a lot of is theorycrafting, people talking about how the clan ER PPC does 15 damage, etc. Well, we already know that St. Inouye plans to balance clan equipment with IS equipment, and if he does what he says he intends to, clan lights will have exactly 0 advantage in terms of firepower.

So we'll see what happens. If Paul delivers on his promises and balances clan/IS weapons, the Kitfox and Adder are going to be unusable at mid-high levels of play. If the clans still reign supreme, however, then yes, these first two mechs will have a place in the game, doubly so if the clans get stricter tonnage limits than the IS.

[Tesunie]

aniviron, on 14 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

... that nobody plays slow lights in this game ...

... if he does what he says he intends to, clan lights will have exactly 0 advantage in terms of firepower.

What? I'm nobody now? I is sad.

Actually, even if they balance out each system, there is the fact that clan weapons tend to weigh less, so a clan mech should (in theory, as we don't know yet as they haven't released anything solid yet) be able to simply take more weapons compared to an IS light mech. Not unless they make all clan tech weigh as much as IS tech does, which I think would be kinda pointless and would invalidate making clan tech for clan mechs only (as well as any advantage to take a clan omni mech that has hard set pieces of gear).

(Note: Yes, after some paraphrasing, for humor!)

Edited by Tesunie, 14 February 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[wanderer]

aniviron, on 14 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

SSRM2s are already far too good against lights, and SSRM6s at clan weights are going to be game over for any lights that have to face that. The other thing I see a lot of is theorycrafting, people talking about how the clan ER PPC does 15 damage, etc. Well, we already know that St. Inouye plans to balance clan equipment with IS equipment, and if he does what he says he intends to, clan lights will have exactly 0 advantage in terms of firepower.

Clan Streak-6's weigh in at the same tonnage as standard IS SRM-6's...and of course, hardpoint restrictions. Still, a few Streak mounts WILL keep lights without AMS cover or ECM at bay.

What I expect from PGI is they're busy figuring out how to geld Clan machines to reach their magical 1:1 balance with Inner Sphere 'Mechs. If they do, "butchery" would be a kind term and the homogenization of the game will be complete- and mixing the flavors like that will result in the most unappetizing mess in the history of the Mechwarrior franchise. Mark my words.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Yeah, I feel offended by the whole slow lights thing not happening. I`m sorry, but if I can run an ac20 raven and rack up a 4.0 KDA, and only be going 89, with speed tweak, I think its all about the skill. Speed would be nice, but honestly, its how you balance lights. Otherwise everyone would pilot a fast as hell cannon light mech.

[Craig Steele]

wanderer, on 14 February 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Clan Streak-6's weigh in at the same tonnage as standard IS SRM-6's...and of course, hardpoint restrictions. Still, a few Streak mounts WILL keep lights without AMS cover or ECM at bay.

What I expect from PGI is they're busy figuring out how to geld Clan machines to reach their magical 1:1 balance with Inner Sphere 'Mechs. If they do, "butchery" would be a kind term and the homogenization of the game will be complete- and mixing the flavors like that will result in the most unappetizing mess in the history of the Mechwarrior franchise. Mark my words.

You're being generous I suspect .

More likely they're trying to work out how much to charge for the limited edition silver plated SLDF mechs that go on sale at Easter for release in November.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Craig Steele, on 14 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

But to get through two side torso's means getting through more armour than a IS CT.

So yeah, Clan mechs have better durability overall as getting to critical components sufficient to take it out requires more firepower application.

by that principal it's the mech sporting the thinist CT hitbox and most armour points that's more durable. hence the shadowhawk is the king of mediums.

if we're talking about tanking the whole torso armour distribution an IS std can do it better than a clan XL.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 February 2014 - 11:23 PM.