158 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

IceSerpent, on 13 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

I am with Joseph on this one. We definitely don't need SRMs to converge on a single location under any circumstances. They do need a fairly large damage buff though (on a side note, LBX needs a similar buff).

agreed. Makes no sense that auto homing missiles weigh exactly as much as dumb fire one, yet do more damage too?

[Koniving]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

id rather have my direct fire any day of the week since I can actually aim it.

I only got one issue with aiming SRMs. Hit detection.

Though make streaks as a compromise between closed beta and now and I'll shut up and be content. Least far as SRMs and streaks go.

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

agreed. Makes no sense that auto homing missiles weigh exactly as much as dumb fire one, yet do more damage too?

Agreed on weight. Either all 2.0 or all 2.5. But I do miss the old SRMs. Rather than a pinpoint converge, more of a spiral that gains and loosens in tightness? But now we're just talking patterns.

Also: LB-10x does incredible damage. It's also so tightly spread that I'm getting 9/10 to hit at 500 meters and pack it with an AC/5 and you have a slaughter weapon. I use it all the time and it actually sickens me how I'm usually outperforming meta rigs with it.

Seriously. After seeing the first score time skip to 7:35. Check out the score after. What sucks is between then and now, there was an LB-10 buff. And it's even better (and I say it sucks is because it's pushing more and more to upfront damage instead of away from it for all weapons for longer time to kills).

Edited by Koniving, 15 February 2014 - 03:44 PM.

[Varent]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

agreed. Makes no sense that auto homing missiles weigh exactly as much as dumb fire one, yet do more damage too?

streaks - 2.5 damage, homing, weigh more, cant aim.

srm - 2 damage, dumb fire, can aim.


both have strengths and weaknesses.

Koniving, on 15 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

I only got one issue with aiming SRMs. Hit detection.

Though make streaks as a compromise between closed beta and now and I'll shut up and be content. Least far as SRMs and streaks go.

Oh I agree... but that is not anything to do with the weapon itself. The weapon itself is great, once they fix hit detection it will be awesome.

[Zyllos]

Almond Brown, on 13 February 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

When did Lasers become Pin point damage dealers?

I don't think you know what pin point means.

It doesn't matter if the weapon fires for 1 second or instantly, it has nothing to do with pin point. Anytime weapons deal damage, how many of the weapons hit the same location your aiming at? This is what makes it pin point.

Thus, every single weapon in the game (baring missiles) are pin point. Fire any number of lasers, and each tick of damage are all in the same location. Same goes for ballistic weapons, fire them at the same time and they all hit the same location.

What makes ballistics much more dangerous than lasers is because it's front-loaded damage vs. damage over time. But they are both pin point accurate.

[Bishop Steiner]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

streaks - 2.5 damage, homing, weigh more, cant aim.

srm - 2 damage, dumb fire, can aim.


both have strengths and weaknesses.



Oh I agree... but that is not anything to do with the weapon itself. The weapon itself is great, once they fix hit detection it will be awesome.

Launcher weighs more, not the ammo. And if you think you can "aim" SRMs past 100 meters, I want your space magic...... because you might pick what quadrant they will loosely group around, but we ain't talking pinpoint damage here. And let's face it, the only time SRMs really beat SSRMs currently is when you get a PBR shot on a nice dumb fat assault mech. And even then, the SSRMs in my GRF or SHD allow to hit the dumb thing while I am flying over it.

Not really a legit tradeoff.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 15 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

I only got one issue with aiming SRMs. Hit detection.

Though make streaks as a compromise between closed beta and now and I'll shut up and be content. Least far as SRMs and streaks go.



Agreed on weight. Either all 2.0 or all 2.5. But I do miss the old SRMs. Rather than a pinpoint converge, more of a spiral that gains and loosens in tightness? But now we're just talking patterns.

Also: LB-10x does incredible damage. It's also so tightly spread that I'm getting 9/10 to hit at 500 meters and pack it with an AC/5 and you have a slaughter weapon. I use it all the time and it actually sickens me how I'm usually outperforming meta rigs with it.

Seriously. After seeing the first score time skip to 7:35. Check out the score after. What sucks is between then and now, there was an LB-10 buff. And it's even better (and I say it sucks is because it's pushing more and more to upfront damage instead of away from it for all weapons for longer time to kills).

IMO, SRMs should be about 3.0, and without the stupid splash mechanic that got SRMaggedon rolling in the first place. Bloody things are ammo hogs, useless past 250 meters, spread more than a kardashian's legs and run pretty bloody hot, actually. Or if they are only 2.5, roll SSRMs back to 2.0 or 2.2. Should give up some damage to compensate for the morning package.

People point out the weight of the launcher, but the Clan Launcher weighs as much as IS dumbfire launchers.

Of course, not saying 3.0 is perfect as a hot jock in a clan Arctic Wolf could lay out some pain. But at least with SRMs you have to WORK for it. I use them a lot, as my fave Orion is a ON1-VA with an ac10 and 4x ASRM4. I can do some good things in it, but I have to work for every bloody point.

[Varent]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Launcher weighs more, not the ammo. And if you think you can "aim" SRMs past 100 meters, I want your space magic...... because you might pick what quadrant they will loosely group around, but we ain't talking pinpoint damage here. And let's face it, the only time SRMs really beat SSRMs currently is when you get a PBR shot on a nice dumb fat assault mech. And even then, the SSRMs in my GRF or SHD allow to hit the dumb thing while I am flying over it.

Not really a legit tradeoff.

you can hit a section, In this game thats all you need. you dont need to be 'pinpoint' you need to land your growing within ga torso section wich is easily doable. I regularly fight with them around 200 ish meters and land the fast majority of them where I want them as long as I have artemis.

Thats great that you can hit all your missles with streaks. While they spread over the arms legs and torso. I would say its a very legitimate tradeoff.

[IceSerpent]

Koniving, on 15 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Lasers are balanced. Notice it takes a long time to kill things.

Kon, I have to disagree with you on that - even if you pretend that all other weapons don't exist, pulse lasers are considerably worse than regular ones.

Mcgral18, on 15 February 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

The meta will always be whatever kills fastest.

It doesn't have to be, you can balance the game in a way where weapons that spread damage cripple the opponent faster (i.e. via destroying weapons), but weapons that don't spread damage potentially give you a quicker kill if you place all your shots where it hurts. It can be done by simply adjusting damage values, don't even need to touch anything else.

Quote

What we really need is balance changes more often, to try and balance things out and switch things up. Not nerfing heat on the LPL, then leaving it alone for months. SRMs are a big victim of this. They didn't even want to buff them to 2.0, let alone back to 2.5 without splash.

That I can definitely agree with. On top of that I'd say that we don't need weird mechanics like ghost heat or gauss charge - just keep it simple, everything can be balanced by just playing with damage and recycle time values, and I literally mean everything.

[Koniving]

IceSerpent, on 16 February 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Kon, I have to disagree with you on that - even if you pretend that all other weapons don't exist, pulse lasers are considerably worse than regular ones.

Pulse lasers are superior to regular ones. I routinely use them.

They are not meant to be fired all at once. In fact in general none of the guns are meant to be fired at once. Although it was reasonably common for autocannons as many of them fired like machine guns or assault rifles.

But, to balance lasers in line with any other weapon in MWO the following changes need to be made.

• One, remove whatever the residual heat mechanic is (where you can have 1 ML and 10 SHS and despite having superior cooling to the heat you generate, still be able to reach 50 heat with a fully mastered mech and shut down).
  
• Two, cut regular laser beam time in half. 0.5 for LL, ER LL, and ML (but shift cooldown rates, LL and ER LL to 3.5 seconds and ML to 3 seconds) and SL to 0.3 second beam time with 2.15 or 2.00 for its new cooldown.
  
• Three, cut pulse laser time by 0.2. LPL, MPL becomes 0.4 second beam times. Probably do not change the cooldown time so that their heat isn't so bad. For the SPL shift it to simply half of what it was, which now beams for 0.25 seconds. Keep original cooldown time.

Honestly though, LL and LPL does extra damage and runs colder than has ever occurred before. MLs do the same damage and run hotter.

In MW3, at 8 damage and 8 heat the large laser you could safely fire 3 at once for 80% heat dealing 24 damage.
With MWO's LL heat and damage but MW3's heat thresholds you could do 4 LL for 36 damage for 93.33% heat.
In MWO's current rising threshold system without any unlocks (or ghost heat) and 10 Single heat sinks you can fire 5 LL for 87.5% threshold. Not counting the fact that your lasers cool while firing.
In MWO's current rising threshold system without any cooling applied and 10 DHS you can fire that same 5 LL for 70% heat or 6 LL for 88% heat.

So if anything, lasers are obscenely overpowered for what they're supposed to be, in a system where everything is obscenely overpowered. Just cut the beam time down and you're all set. Reducing ML's residual heat b.s. for constantly firing them would also help as it's just a different kind of ghost heat (and it only affects flamers and medium lasers).

Edited by Koniving, 16 February 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lasers are supposed to be the mainstay weapon on mechs. They are meant to be supported by ACs and Missiles. Would a Black Knight or Flashman stand up to an Orion well?

[Osric Lancaster]

Cram an srm4 into the narc arm of a 4l and it becomes a lot more useful. It turns the srm from a predictive nightmare to something you can aim and adjust on the fly like a slow moving, burst shot AC/2. If I have multiple srm systems on a 'Mech I chain fire them for the same reason. Actually, comparing SRMs to ac/2s is an interesting exercise.

Koniving, on 16 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Pulse lasers are superior to regular ones. I routinely use them.

They are not meant to be fired all at once. In fact in general none of the guns are meant to be fired at once.

Koniving you're normally pretty level headed, but this is a pretty dumb thing to say. Why do you think PGI never applied ghost heat to small or medium pulse lasers? The only advantage they have is their shorter beam duration. It means they can focus damage better on a point. If you're chain firing them, you are defeating the entire point of pulse lasers.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 16 February 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[dwwolf]

I wouldnt mind a 2 tier system of guiding SRMs with a toggle, Dumb fire like we have now for shoot n scoot or SACLOS guidance for the missile formation with limited guidance say 20-30 degrees total over the 270 meters. SACLOS means you have to keep the reticle on target for them to guide correctly.

[Artgathan]

What if we gave SRMs a "fly by wire" mechanic? Have them slowly converge on the point where the users reticule is pointing, but if there's too much movement they spread more.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lasers are supposed to be the mainstay weapon on mechs. They are meant to be supported by ACs and Missiles. Would a Black Knight or Flashman stand up to an Orion well?

That's incorrect. Lasers are meant to be roughly supportive of most other weapons. Look at the major and main loadouts of some of the core mechs. The lasers are always supportive and setup into secondary rolls.

[Osric Lancaster]

Varent, on 16 February 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

That's incorrect. Lasers are meant to be roughly supportive of most other weapons. Look at the major and main loadouts of some of the core mechs. The lasers are always supportive and setup into secondary rolls.

That's also incorrect. The correct answer is 'depends'. It depends on your role on the battlefield. Take a look at the Flashman. Entirely laser based, extremely effective and a SLDF sweetheart.

[stjobe]

Varent, on 16 February 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Joseph Mallan, on 16 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lasers are supposed to be the mainstay weapon on mechs. They are meant to be supported by ACs and Missiles. Would a Black Knight or Flashman stand up to an Orion well?

That's incorrect. Lasers are meant to be roughly supportive of most other weapons. Look at the major and main loadouts of some of the core mechs. The lasers are always supportive and setup into secondary rolls.

You're both over-generalizing.

A LL can be a main weapon as well as an AC/10, AC/20, or Gauss can. If it is, MLs and SLs are backup weapons.

But on a light, for example, a ML might well be a main weapon, with MGs or SLs as backup weapons.

Almost all weapons can be main weapons; off the top of my head the only one I cannot say for certain have been used as a main weapon is the SL.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 16 February 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

You're both over-generalizing.

A LL can be a main weapon as well as an AC/10, AC/20, or Gauss can. If it is, MLs and SLs are backup weapons.

But on a light, for example, a ML might well be a main weapon, with MGs or SLs as backup weapons.

Almost all weapons can be main weapons; off the top of my head the only one I cannot say for certain have been used as a main weapon is the SL.

Look at many of the core mechs, hell look at some of the first few mechs released in mwo. Hunchback, Atlas, Catapult. ac20, lrm, ac/srm/. They aren't built around lasers. Ignore light mechs since they only have the weight to mount lasers effectively.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Zyllos, on 15 February 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I don't think you know what pin point means.

It doesn't matter if the weapon fires for 1 second or instantly, it has nothing to do with pin point. Anytime weapons deal damage, how many of the weapons hit the same location your aiming at? This is what makes it pin point.

Thus, every single weapon in the game (baring missiles) are pin point. Fire any number of lasers, and each tick of damage are all in the same location. Same goes for ballistic weapons, fire them at the same time and they all hit the same location.

What makes ballistics much more dangerous than lasers is because it's front-loaded damage vs. damage over time. But they are both pin point accurate.

When someone says pinpoint, I think all the damage from the weapon hits one section. When you say all weapons fired will hit the same spot, I think convergence.

Not saying you are wrong, just using the words to mean something other than I do. Though you are wrong when you say the words mean this, and not that.

[Osric Lancaster]

stjobe, on 16 February 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Almost all weapons can be main weapons; off the top of my head the only one I cannot say for certain have been used as a main weapon is the SL.

Unless you count "running into things" as it's main weapon, then...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger

Varent, on 16 February 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Look at many of the core mechs, hell look at some of the first few mechs released in mwo. Hunchback. . .

What is the 4p ?

Zyllos, on 15 February 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Fire any number of lasers, and each tick of damage are all in the same location.

True, but not true for each successive cumulative tic. If you're firing on someone who's not completely stationary / moving in step with you / torso twisting / jumping then you're still spreading that damage. How many individual medium lasers would you need to stack together before you get even one damage a tic?

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 16 February 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[stjobe]

Varent, on 16 February 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Look at many of the core mechs, hell look at some of the first few mechs released in mwo. Hunchback, Atlas, Catapult. ac20, lrm, ac/srm/. They aren't built around lasers. Ignore light mechs since they only have the weight to mount lasers effectively.

Ah, No True Scotsman. Gotcha.

Phoenix Hawk. Ostroc. Ostsol. Thunderbolt. Grasshopper. Zeus. Stalker. All had LLs as main armament.

And if you count the PPC ones: Vindicator. Griffin. Warhammer. Marauder - hell, I needn't go on, do I?

Osric Lancaster, on 16 February 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Unless you count "running into things" as it's main weapon, then...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger

Doh! How could I forget?