26 replies to this topic

[Kymlaar]

I want to start by saying that I certainly don't feel that jump jets are unused or useless. I do feel that their current implementation can be very useful and powerful, but I feel that it's not what I'm looking for in jump jets.

I would like to see jump jets able to allow for horizontal maneuvering in mid-air, as well as an increase in forward velocity. As they are now they do provide a slight boost forward, but the amount is so minimal that I doubt that between that and the slowdown when you land you'll gain any more ground on someone you're chasing than you would have by simply running.

To look at the tabletop (I know, this isn't tabletop, but humor me) someone with jumpjets (even a very fast mech) could often move many more hexes than they could have simply by moving straight, and in any direction. This implies to me that Jump Jets are SUPPOSED to provide rapid movement.

To take it away from tabletop and to the gameplay aspect of it, I feel that jumpjets would be far more fun and versatile to play with if you could use them for serious boosts in speed, and for strafing. Being able to strafe with them would also allow you to use them to much better effect in combat than I usually see them being used. If you look at previous mechwarrior games, the current jumpjet mechanic appears exceedingly weak and boring.

Perhaps all it would need is allowing multiple jump jets to increase your jump speed by an increasing amount with each, not primarily fuel. I'm not sure, but I do know that I'd like to see them adjusted from their current implementation.

Thoughts?

Edited by Kymlaar, 13 February 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[BlackBeltJones]

Its called Hawken

[Kymlaar]

Sterling M Archer, on 13 February 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

The crystal ball says there is heat in your future.
I think a flaming is about to occur.

Make jump jets better? I see the backlash coming already.

Possibly. I don't see jump jets being that useful except to lights currently. Usually when people jump in heavier mechs currently my friends and I say something like, "Pull!" and enjoy shooting at the giant floating target. Sure they can get you interesting places, but for actual defensive use I feel that they're marginally useful to anything beyond a light.

Let me also add that I would like the first JJ to not be the most effective anymore. I would rather see an increasing effect from increasing numbers of jump jets, thus making you spend extra slots/weight to get the advantages of JJs.

Edited by Kymlaar, 13 February 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[Coralld]

Sterling M Archer, on 13 February 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

The crystal ball says there is heat in your future.
I think a flaming is about to occur.

Make jump jets better? I see the backlash coming already.

Get your torches here, torches and pitchforks half off.

Edited by Coralld, 13 February 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[FactorlanP]

I don't recall jump jet speed being faster than run speed in table top...

[General Taskeen]

The point is MWO jumpjets are nothing like the more maneuverable BattleTech jumpjets.

You could take a Mech standing still and have it jump in any direction (side to side, diagonal, forward and backwards) at its top speed. That doesn't happen in MWO, the only thing they do is hover a bit from a stand still and you can't jump directionally.

[TehSBGX]

Personally, I think JJs are fine as is. As some one uses them in brawls, and as some one on the receiving end of Jump sninpers.... JJs are plenty powerful OP.

[hercules1981]

I honestly think KYMLAAR is saying that jj in mwo should be like they where in mw2 if I remember correctly. U basically didn't even have to run in that game at all the jj where so fast in any direction which would be cool if this game wasn't a PvsP game but as it is a PvsP game that just can't be. As most have been saying, jj need a rework to have one jj barley do anything and progress noticeably with each jet added

[Lukoi Banacek]

Kymlaar, on 13 February 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Possibly. I don't see jump jets being that useful except to lights currently. Usually when people jump in heavier mechs currently my friends and I say something like, "Pull!" and enjoy shooting at the giant floating target. Sure they can get you interesting places, but for actual defensive use I feel that they're marginally useful to anything beyond a light.

You and I clearly are not playing the same game.

[Amsro]

Sterling M Archer, on 13 February 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

The crystal ball says there is heat in your future.
I think a flaming is about to occur.

Make jump jets better? I see the backlash coming already.

Backlash to what? JJ suck in this game, its the weak JJ that plays into the PopTart Meta.

If the JJ actually launched you JumpSniping would be MORE difficult. Its comical how bad they are.

Why do you think most everyone only takes one JJ? Because they are mostly useless.

[Charons Little Helper]

Sorry OP - but jumpjets are about to take a hit from the nerf bat - not be buffed.

And frankly - they deserve it.

[Amsro]

Sterling M Archer, on 14 February 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

"Improve Jump Jet Maneuverability" That's what. Just the statement alone is enough to ignite a debate.
You say people only equip 1 JJ..?? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE, and I have no idea where you get that info.

True Story, 1 JJ is the bulk of the current JJ use, extra (4 +) JJ are VERY situational and more suited to lights and a few mediums.

JJ should be much more effective at lift and thrust. You should be able to dodge with max JJ (vertical launch).

Highander with 3 JJ should be a 90 meter jump distance. In game 3 JJ on a Highlander nets you a paltry 16.7 meters, for 6 tons that is a joke.

If you want people to take more JJ and LOSE firepower/heatsinks you need to make JJ useful. Currently the only uses are Pop-Tarting and Jump Twisting. Lighter mechs can sometimes get to high places.

any JJ beyond 1 at this point isn't as good as the first 1. But your right, saying NoOOooooOOpe is a much better discussion! Instead why is it JJ are broken?

Charons Little Helper, on 14 February 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Sorry OP - but jumpjets are about to take a hit from the nerf bat - not be buffed.

And frankly - they deserve it.

False, JJ have already been hit with the Nerf bat, not long after that the Poptart Meta showed up. Give JJ something better to do then Poptart.

[Coralld]

In TT, JJs only net you a 6m high jump, that's hardly enough to even jump over a Jenner if you are just mounting a single one, which is why mechs mounted more then one, usually 4 or more. However, in MWO, a single JJ is easily 3 times that which makes adding any more JJs pointless because all others JJ after the first is significantly less. Something is very wrong here. Also, JJs in TT produced a fair amount of heat where as in MWO there is almost zero.

And that's just the basic rule set, don't even get me started on advanced movement rules in TT where you can actually jump shoot but get hit with an accuracy penalty the whole ride through.

Edited by Coralld, 14 February 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Amsro, on 14 February 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

False, JJ have already been hit with the Nerf bat, not long after that the Poptart Meta showed up. Give JJ something better to do then Poptart.

They have recently announced that Jumpjets are going to be nerfed soon.

You can disagree with me on the need for it - but it's still coming whether you want it to be or not.

[LauLiao]

Kymlaar, on 13 February 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

To look at the tabletop (I know, this isn't tabletop, but humor me) someone with jumpjets (even a very fast mech) could often move many more hexes than they could have simply by moving straight, and in any direction. This implies to me that Jump Jets are SUPPOSED to provide rapid movement.

Absolutely NOT true at all. By rule, jump jets movement was limited to the same as walking movement. Thus, in straight line moment it's actually faster to NOT use jump jets. Their advantage was ONLY that you could bypass difficult terrain that would otherwise slow you down. But you were still absolutely limited by your max walk speed.

[Amsro]

Charons Little Helper, on 14 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

They have recently announced that Jumpjets are going to be nerfed soon.

You can disagree with me on the need for it - but it's still coming whether you want it to be or not.

JJ are being looked into, nerf is not confirmed. The idea is a nerf to Highlander and Victor poptarts, we'll see what they do with the JJ.

[Amsro]

Coralld, on 14 February 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

In TT, JJs only net you a 6m high jump, that's hardly enough to even jump over a Jenner if you are just mounting a single one, which is why mechs mounted more then one, usually 4 or more. However, in MWO, a single JJ is easily 3 times that which makes adding any more JJs pointless because all others JJ after the first is significantly less. Something is very wrong here. Also, JJs in TT produced a fair amount of heat where as in MWO there is almost zero.

And that's just the basic rule set, don't even get me started on advanced movement rules in TT where you can actually jump shoot but get hit with an accuracy penalty the whole ride through.

I can dig the height argument! I agree 1 JJ is too good vertically, but the speed/thrust should be increased as well as the distance traveled should be increased.

[Sandpit]

They could buff the manueverability while adjusting heat to nerf the poptarts a bit

[Osric Lancaster]

LauLiao, on 14 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

By rule, jump jets movement was limited to the same as walking movement. Thus, in straight line moment it's actually faster to NOT use jump jets. Their advantage was ONLY that you could bypass difficult terrain that would otherwise slow you down. But you were still absolutely limited by your max walk speed.

While technically true, adhering to the strictest interpretation of battletech rules ends up looking pretty silly in practice a lot of times in a stompy robot simulator. Tabletop is a simplification, you can't convert it directly. Case and point; if we are go entirely by what's allowed in the tabletop game, you would not be able to walk backwards over terrain elevation changes. Now, you have to admit that would be a bit silly, right? Similarly, a multi ton mass launched into the sky on a pillar of fire does not lose momentum as quickly as the 'Mechs in MWO. Besides, in TT you could also take a 'Mech at a dead run and then use jumpjets to drop it over a chunk of terrain in a completely different / opposite direction next turn. Sure that's in a 10 second window, but also a game with a considerably higher time to kill. Now, if you want WSAD to allow directional jump jet controls on airborne 'Mechs and then set a hard limits on their velocity, I'm all for that. Jumpjets as they are now though aren't what I'd call. . . overpowered. Consider this - most 'Mechs in MWO can run up a hill (that they actually can run up at their top speed) faster than they can jump up it. In TT, walking up terrain elevations of 1 cost 1 mp. So say you have a 3/5/3 'Mech going up a 3 hex ramp. Running up that ramp would take 6 move points. That means you could jump up that ramp in one 10 second turn, where as running up it would take over ten seconds.

For everyone that thinks jumpjets are overpowered, let me pose a challenge. -
Explain, in writing, concisely what makes jump-firing or poptarting so powerful that it needs rebalancing.
. . .

Got it? Good.

1 - Does your explanation mention pinpoint damage?
--> That is a convergence issue.
2 - Does your explanation mention projectile travel speed or lock time?
a - Will that explanation also apply to fast hill humping 'Mechs like the blackjack?
--> That goes both ways. Fit TAG for missiles, get hit-scan weapons and move when you're being shot at.
Get a spotter, get closer or get cover.
b - What? It has to do with the magical ability of Jumpjet pixies to make people really good shots?
. . . I don't understand. Please explain.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 14 February 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Colonel Fubar]

Coralld, on 13 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Get your torches here, torches and pitchforks half off.

LMAO!