285 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 21 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Actually the agility differences are non-existant. A CN9-A with a stock engine has the same turn speed (45 degrees / second) as a Victor with a stock engine. They have the same yaw speed, and the Centurion only has a 20 degree/second twist speed advantage over the Victor (100 deg/sec vs 80).

and the YLW has one of 31.25 per second. And a torso YAW of 120 degree vs the VTRs 90.

So yes, one can always cherry pick where specific instances of one being better than the other. Also you are comparing PITCH, not YAW. Aka, speed aiming up and down. Torso yaw speed (side to side) is 100 to the 80 for the VTR on the CN9-A vs the VTR-9S. And maxed out, fully unlocked and maxxed engine,. the difference in yaw speed is 137 degree per second, vs 96. (if one uses the Dragonslayer, the Yaw speed increases to 100 degrees per second. (max range of 108 degrees) Of course, then the YLW can twist 144 degrees, at 187 dps. And for comparison, the torso pitch is 25 degree at 84 dps vs 20 @ 56 dps. And the DS has a top speed of 89 vs 106 kph) So for mobility and agility, the Medium wins game, set and match.

So your argument is based on highly simplified information, and not actually indicative of the true differences per class.

Let's take my Shadowhawk now. 116 Kph vs 89. 27 kph difference in max speed. Torso yaw (twist) is the same 108 degrees but whereas the VTR is turning at 100 dps, the 2D2 twists at 163 dps. or 163% the speed of twist for the VTR. Both have JJs, so a wash there. Now the Shadow hawk has 30 degrees of pitch at 73 dps, vs 20 @ 56 dps for the DragonSlayer. 150% the pitch angle at nearly 150% the speed.

(Griffin 3m, by comparison, it 156 degrees at 144 dps, and can literally fire directly behind it when fully mastered. And the other "agile" assault? The Highlander has a 108 yaw at a snail like 72 dps)


So the agility difference is minor?

As for tonnage? Let's see, a maxed Engine (400XL) Dragonslayer peaks at 89 kph. At that speed it retains 42.5 tons for armor, weapons and equipment. The Shadowhawk achieves the same speed with a 275 XL, and has 38 tons left after. 4.5 tons difference for your mightily feared "Speed" Victor. (and BTW, only noobs run a VTR that fast, 340-360 are ideal engine ranges for VTRs) And your JJs weigh twice as much. (And the Highlander, 4 times as much). At this point, they have identical 108 degrees of yaw, but the SHD is still traversing at 127 dps vs 100. And still has 30 degrees of pitch vs 20, at a wash for pitch speed. Also, I believe despite model size, the Shadowhawk counts as Medium size for movement on terrain vs Huge for the Victor. Another agility advantage. Both twist and tank damage and protect their XLs like a boss.

The Point? The agility difference IS there, it's significant, and can impact one's piloting and survivability depending on role, terrain, etc. I can and have survived situations in my SHD that I quite literally would have just had to go down fighting in my Victor. And my Victor is better on average at slugging it out. Both are indeed quite useful, and quite different in how they are run.

And the funny thing is, I would agree the Mediums do need some separation still. I'm just trying to point out the ludicrousness that the agility differences are non existent, or so insignificant as to make no difference in how well one might do driving a Victor vs a Shadowhawk. There are the hard cold "maths" for you.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 21 February 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Look...I think you miss the point. Mediums need something. But try to come up with something meaningful other than just screaming buff this, and nerf that. Really?

Just screaming they are broken fix it does nothing.

b/c if mediums get "buffed" all of a sudden then light pilots will probably start screaming that THEY need a buff...and assault pilots will get upset that their mech that they spent 10 million cbills or 5-10K MC on is suddenly less effective.

Some of those medium mechs actually work pretty well in good hands.

You are basically saying "Don't change anything, because someone will whine".

Role warfare would help this a lot, but I don't think any of us really expects a really well fleshed out Role Warfare pillar at this point.

Ontop of that multiple light pilots have expressed that they don't want any role warfare, they just want to kill in their lights.

In the end though, balancing is not about whining. Balancing is about making logical sense.

Right now it doesn't make sense for Mediums to have model's that are as large as Assaults, not move much faster, and have equal to slightly better agility.

It's just dumb.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm not screaming anything. We all know what needs to happen.

- Engine caps need to be adjusted down
- JJs need to get hammered
- LRMs need better pathing and more dependable spreads (the bigger the launcher, the less efficient they become)
- SRMs need their HSR fixed like last year
- Medium mechs either need their turning speeds buffed or Heavies/Assaults need theirs reduced

The point that I've tried to make to you and that you keep missing is that you seem to think that adjusting the environment is going to mean something and it really won't. If you limit weight, I'll take more Lights to get my Heavies and Assaults in. If you change mission protocols, I'll adjust. But none of those mean anything when it is better to take the equally armed much faster and harder to kill Jenner or the equally fast and more armed/armored Heavy. Why take the AC20 Huncback and a Highlander when I can take an AC20 Cataphract and Victor for the same tonnage? On top of that, there isn't anything that you can really do to save weak mech chassis - sometimes you just get bad apples no matter what.

The only way that Mediums begin to shine is if there is an economy that limits the usage of heavier mechs and/or if maps like Tourmaline are doubled in size and Community Warfare shifts to a combination Conquest and Assault happen or there is a new game format that is an intercept convoy mode or something. But, none of that helps the Medium mech on a map like Forrest Colony that is 2000m x 2000m.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Cherry Picking

You just did the same thing you were whining about.

Why don't you go pull up the most effective Victor build (as it is generally considered to be).

And why not compare it to a Streak Hawk and a Direct Fire Hawk.

Then take a look at all of the comparisons.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

You just did the same thing you were whining about.

Why don't you go pull up the most effective Victor build (as it is generally considered to be).

And why not compare it to a Streak Hawk and a Direct Fire Hawk.

Then take a look at all of the comparisons.

and of course you missed the point (of which cherry picking was actually part of, though also balanced with MULTIPLE examples not just the cherry picked ones) but since you have for the last what, 10 pages of discussion, why am I surprised?

And by all means, would you care to define "the most effective build" of both, so that a noob like myself doesn't mess things up further? After all, "most effective" can only mean 2 PPC and 2 AC5, as that is Meta, and we all know Meta is the only true measure of effectiveness.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 February 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

and of course you missed the point (of which cherry picking was actually part of, though also balanced with MULTIPLE examples not just the cherry picked ones) but since you have for the last what, 10 pages of discussion, why am I surprised?

And by all means, would you care to define "the most effective build" of both, so that a noob like myself doesn't mess things up further? After all, "most effective" can only mean 2 PPC and 2 AC5, as that is Meta, and we all know Meta is the only true measure of effectiveness.

Actually you can have multiple examples and still cherry pick each and every one.

I just like how riled up you are at this point. Just furthering my original view that you can't look at this objectively.

Mediums should not be the size of Assaults. Assaults should not be as close to Medium's as they currently are in Speed/Manuverability/Agility.

End of story.

Stop mucking up the conversation because you love playing Shadow Hawks and can have good games in them.

Go write a novel or something instead.

[Colby Boucher]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that people are so split on the matter is a good thing. Just saying.

That being said, in my opinion, assaults / heavies should get lower engine rating caps. They are just way too fast at the moment. I want to see slow, stompy metal monsters, not Kenyan sprinters.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Colby Boucher, on 21 February 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that the fact that people are so split on the matter is a good thing. Just saying.

That being said, in my opinion, assaults / heavies should get lower engine rating caps. They are just way too fast at the moment. I want to see slow, stompy metal monsters, not Kenyan sprinters.

Now you sound like PGI. Split is not good.

It's not good that a large amount of people think mediums are poorly implemented.

It's not good that ECM "polarizes" people.

Split is not good in these games.

[Trauglodyte]

I run Cicadas, Hunchbacks, Centurions, and Shadowhawks. The Shawk is my least favorite and I'm the worst in it, by far. I just think that the big issue is that players are running them and then looking around wondering why they're paying full price but only getting half the meal. The Medium vs Light arguement is really kind of non-existant because Lights are faster but don't pack the same punch or carry the same armor. That's fine. But, its when you look at Heavies and Victor/Battlemaster Assaults and you go, "Hrm, they're keeping pace with me, hitting me harder, and laughing at what I send back. Something is amiss!" You could argue that it is a bit like coveting your neighbor's trophy wife but, at the end of the day, everyone just wants some good trim (bad pun but you get it). And, honestly, most of this is really based on the Hunchback and Centurion vs. the Heavies and Assaults. Sure, the Mediums are quite large though none of them are as offensive as the poor Quickdraw which IS bigger than the damned Orion. But, there is an issue when you can't out run, out range, out gun, or out armor mechs bigger than you.

I'm still a firm believer that if SRMs and LRMs were better, the concept of Mediums being "bad" might be less of an issue. But, we're langering in the world of instant damage in pinpoint locations. Missiles and beam weapons pale in comparison.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 21 February 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

I run Cicadas, Hunchbacks, Centurions, and Shadowhawks. The Shawk is my least favorite and I'm the worst in it, by far. I just think that the big issue is that players are running them and then looking around wondering why they're paying full price but only getting half the meal. The Medium vs Light arguement is really kind of non-existant because Lights are faster but don't pack the same punch or carry the same armor. That's fine. But, its when you look at Heavies and Victor/Battlemaster Assaults and you go, "Hrm, they're keeping pace with me, hitting me harder, and laughing at what I send back. Something is amiss!" You could argue that it is a bit like coveting your neighbor's trophy wife but, at the end of the day, everyone just wants some good trim (bad pun but you get it). And, honestly, most of this is really based on the Hunchback and Centurion vs. the Heavies and Assaults. Sure, the Mediums are quite large though none of them are as offensive as the poor Quickdraw which IS bigger than the damned Orion. But, there is an issue when you can't out run, out range, out gun, or out armor mechs bigger than you.

Honestly I think scaling across the board is terribad.

I just don't think PGI is really going to rescale everything. So I focus on Mediums as being the most in need.

[TheSteelRhino]

so..I will definitely say this.

Mediums aren't actually the problem.

Highlanders that can actually get off the ground with 1 jumpjet are ridiculous. Same for victors, and cataphracts, etc. There should be a minimum number required to even get off the ground.

When you consider the fact that each class weights more than the preceeding class of JJ that should tell us that more thrust is needed the more the mass. Nobody ever said that 1 class 4 JJ equals 4x class 1.

LRMS....I would be careful here otherwise you get LRM-ageddon again. Honestly, I think they are fine

SRMS...broken..hit detection issues need to be fixed and then check to see if dmg should be adjusted.

FIX the problems get drop weights and , CW in ..and then reevaluate. But this isin't "buffing" mediums. THAT is where the problem is..somebody says buff mediums, and the real issue has nothing to do with medium weight chassis's or armour values. Or doing something special JUST for the mediums. That fixes NOTHING.

Dig deeper and find the underlying issue as to WHY you think they need something.

Again. Quite a few folks use them effectively.

[Bishop Steiner]

Well, fine, I will go by what I find effective form MY piloting style, in the current Meta, then.

My preferred VTR-9S (would prefer triple ASRM4s, but with current SRM hit detection still dodgy....... SSRMs it is) vs my preferred SHD-2D2

Top speed? 75.7 vs 90.7 (15 kph speed advantage)
Max Firepower? 53 pt alpha vs 35 (18 pt damage deficit, though real world, 13 pts, if I double tap UAC)
Sustained DPS? 4.87 vs 4.85 (because well, heat and AC20 is a tad slow, RoF) (.2 dps deficit)
Heat Endurance? 36% vs 42% (6% superior heat endurance)
Armor? 448 vs 352 (significant deficit of 96 pts, though in actual practice only 10 pts more per side torso)
Yaw? 108 degrees, 87 dps vs 127 dps ( 40 dps faster, or close to 150%)
Pitch? 20 degrees vs 30, @ 49 dps vs 57 (10% more pitch, 8 dps faster)
Jump? 21.3 vs 15 meters (deficit, 6.3 meters distance)

Etc. Offhand don't remember where to get acceleration, jump burst numbers.

Victor has a significant edge in Alpha and Armor, though the Armor advantage is semi illusory, being spread over entire mech, and of course being leg and CT dominated.

Shadowhawk still is significantly faster and more agile.

Most other details are close enough to be a wash.

Point? For a more deliberate, slugger, the VTR will indeed be a better mech. For a person who plays a more mobile, flanking and escort role, the Shadowhawk wins. Different roles, different approaches, to the same goal, kill the other team.
Shocker, that.

[Trauglodyte]

Scaling is an issue but I think that it is just a small part of the problem. If PPCs and ACs weren't so dominant, would size really matter that much when the weapons attacking you are so spread? If JJs weren't so nuts, combined with the above, would Victors and Highlanders be so dominant?

In my mind, I think what is really missing is the decision factor. I've been a Cicada driver since I had the money to buy one in Beta. But, I've been asking myself every day since I started up in June '12: Why keep driving the bug when I could do better in the Jenner? I've got more armor, the same weapons, the same speed, and near the same agility. But, my bug is bigger and slightly easier to hit and I'm crippled by the lack of JJs. There is no, "I know what I'm losing but I'm gaining X factor" in the decision other than "I just like the way the Cicada looks". That is what is really missing here.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Actually you can have multiple examples and still cherry pick each and every one.

I just like how riled up you are at this point. Just furthering my original view that you can't look at this objectively.

Mediums should not be the size of Assaults. Assaults should not be as close to Medium's as they currently are in Speed/Manuverability/Agility.

End of story.

Stop mucking up the conversation because you love playing Shadow Hawks and can have good games in them.

Go write a novel or something instead.

Lol, now who is emotionally riled? Name calling, demeaning comments? Dismissive? Look in the mirror, son. Long and short of multiple pages of QQ, "My mech's too tall!". Because I just used your precious maths to show the rest of your argument is bogus.

You are the one who decided to make it personal, and spend pages ranting and attacking, because I don't happen to share your black and white world view. You ignore the fact that I actually have 4 times the drops in Jagermechs that I do in Shadowhawks. And almost twice the amount in Victors. (and.... let's see..... almost catching up in my Ember, about equal in Orions and Battlemasters). So thank you for conceding you in fact you have no argument with your childish attempt to dismiss me.

A pity really, since we both want to see improvements between Mediums and Assaults, I just happen to prefer to base my arguments in actual facts and not strawman arguments, because I find unbiased facts a better way to get results than sensationalism.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Scaling is an issue but I think that it is just a small part of the problem. If PPCs and ACs weren't so dominant, would size really matter that much when the weapons attacking you are so spread? If JJs weren't so nuts, combined with the above, would Victors and Highlanders be so dominant?

In my mind, I think what is really missing is the decision factor. I've been a Cicada driver since I had the money to buy one in Beta. But, I've been asking myself every day since I started up in June '12: Why keep driving the bug when I could do better in the Jenner? I've got more armor, the same weapons, the same speed, and near the same agility. But, my bug is bigger and slightly easier to hit and I'm crippled by the lack of JJs. There is no, "I know what I'm losing but I'm gaining X factor" in the decision other than "I just like the way the Cicada looks". That is what is really missing here.

You hit the biggest factor on the head, which is indeed, JJs. Hell, when the ShadowHawk was dropped, everyone cried it was DOA because of it's size. Within a few weeks, the QQ changed to "It must have borked hit registry because I can't kill it easy". When the reality was, it has huge arms, and smallish side torsos, and a good twist speed, and thus is phenomenally easy to spread damage with. Clearly it being too tall (which it is, but that is a different argument, one I was on the forefront of, but finally acknowledged they aren't going to do scaling passes, as it is VERY code intensive).

On the other hand, JJs across the board are broken. If the impulse was biased toward the back end of , vs the front end of the number of JJs, then we would see a significant difference. But since most mechs can slap on 1 JJ and get 75% of the benefit of maximum, we see an imbalance. Force mechs to take at least 2, and have the thrust scale geometrically for the more you mount, to reward actually loading full loads. On a VTR that would be 4-6 tons, whereas on the Highlander, a very significant 6-10 tons of mass used.

There are great suggestions about tweaking thrust rates, aerial speed and twist rates, descent shake, CoF while jumping, etc. Those are realistic things we can see adjusted which actually would further differentiate classes, as opposed to complaining about the scaling, which is not going to be changed.

(I have also always been an advocate of mediums being more module friendly. Perhaps many of the module benefits should have weight class quirks).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Lol, now who is emotionally riled? Name calling, demeaning comments? Dismissive? Look in the mirror, son. Long and short of multiple pages of QQ, "My mech's too tall!". Because I just used your precious maths to show the rest of your argument is bogus.

You are the one who decided to make it personal, and spend pages ranting and attacking, because I don't happen to share your black and white world view. You ignore the fact that I actually have 4 times the drops in Jagermechs that I do in Shadowhawks. And almost twice the amount in Victors. (and.... let's see..... almost catching up in my Ember, about equal in Orions and Battlemasters). So thank you for conceding you in fact you have no argument with your childish attempt to dismiss me.

A pity really, since we both want to see improvements between Mediums and Assaults, I just happen to prefer to base my arguments in actual facts and not strawman arguments, because I find unbiased facts a better way to get results than sensationalism.

You showed me how I was wrong with the above math? You have to be joking.

You didn't extrapolate the data at all.

You drew conclusions without explaining them.

The important questions are things like "The Victor is 15kph slower, assuming both the Victor and Shadow Hawk were disengaging from battle, how much faster could the Shadow Hawk get away?".

You compare the alpha's while using Streaks...which is another annoying comparison. Streaks are totally random and you can't use them that way. And honestly, I think I probably would've went with the 2 PPC/AC/20 instead of the version you linked. But even so 2 Large Lasers/AC20 vs a UAC5 (which can Jam in addition to double tapping) and 2 MLas.

Pretty signifigant difference there.

You also don't bothering to explain how the Shadow Hawks Pitch and Yaw matter...here is the thing they really don't too much. Both mechs have no issues tracking light mechs. So there is no advantage here really. Aside from maybe slightly better defensive twisting.
And i'm not even sure what a "Mobile, flanking and escort" role is? And why couldn't a Victor escort just as well? What are you escorting exactly?

I mean come on man.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

wow, have to explain that yaw rate also specifically affects the ability to twist damage. Or that being faster, better at terrain scaling, and quicker turning might make you a better flanker, and because the point of escorts is to fight off the Lights from the big fatties, a better escort, too (especially as extra speed allows you to move anywhere along the front faster)

Anything else you need your hand held on, or spelled out with real big letters and small words?

time to hit mute on you, I suppose. No point trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 February 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

wow, have to explain that yaw rate also specifically affects the ability to twist damage. Or that being faster, better at terrain scaling, and quicker turning might make you a better flanker, and because hte point of escorts is to fight off the Lights from the big fatties, a better escort, too (especially as extra speed allows you to move anywhere along the front faster)

Anything else you need your hand held on, or spelled out with real big letters and small words?

Sigh, And once again missing the point. You can't tell me how MUCH it affects the ability to twist damage. Or HOW much faster the Shadow Hawk would get from point a to point B. Or WHY an equally skilled pilot in a Victor would be worse at killing lights.

You just keep saying the same things "Shadow Hawks are faster and more agile and thus better at all this stuff".

When in actuality the differences in agility/mobility between the Shadow Hawk and Victor are barely noticiable when playing in game.

And IF you were in a situation where speed/manuvering was that important, you'd be in a Light anyway.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

wow, have to explain that yaw rate also specifically affects the ability to twist damage.

And by the way, I specifically addressed this in the post.

Did you bother to read it? Or are you just too mad for that now?

See below for reference.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

You also don't bothering to explain how the Shadow Hawks Pitch and Yaw matter...here is the thing they really don't too much.

Both mechs have no issues tracking light mechs. So there is no advantage here really. Aside from maybe slightly better defensive twisting.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 February 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Sigh, And once again missing the point. You can't tell me how MUCH it affects the ability to twist damage. Or HOW much faster the Shadow Hawk would get from point a to point B. Or WHY an equally skilled pilot in a Victor would be worse at killing lights.

You just keep saying the same things "Shadow Hawks are faster and more agile and thus better at all this stuff".

When in actuality the differences in agility/mobility between the Shadow Hawk and Victor are barely noticiable when playing in game.

And IF you were in a situation where speed/manuvering was that important, you'd be in a Light anyway.

50% faster at twisting. 15 kph faster at moving. You do the math. And where is your math, proving the ingame difference is barely noticeable? I would like your mathematically defined proofs.

(And already explained the difference in my preference for Mediums over Lights.... significant enough increase in armor and firepower to make a difference when one DOES get there. But you overlooked that like you have everything else you can't takeout of context to try to prove your own point.)

A Stalker overextends. A Victor or Jagermech might not have the speed to overtake it before it can retreat. A Jenner or Spider might not have the firepower or armor to solo it before help arrives. On the other hand, my well designed Medium, being faster than the Assaults of my own team, can arrive in time to engage, and deal enough damage to cripple or destroy it, while having the speed (lacking in most heavies and assaults) and armor (lacking in Lights) to then disengage and return to friendly lines before OpFor reinforcements can destroy me. Feel free to add in Victor, Highlander or Atlas. As I have gleefully ambushed and soloed them all.

No,I don't have the exact math for that, anymore than you do for your claim of "insignificant differences" in speed and mobility. I just have the hundreds of solo Assault Mech kills to tell me that I can. And in the end, that is all I, or my Clan, really need.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

50% faster at twisting. 15 kph faster at moving. You do the math. And where is your math, proving the ingame difference is barely noticeable? I would like your mathematically defined proofs.

(And already explained the difference in my preference for Mediums over Lights.... significant enough increase in armor and firepower to make a difference when one DOES get there. But you overlooked that like you have everything else you can't takeout of context to try to prove your own point.)

A Stalker overextends. A Victor or Jagermech might not have the speed to overtake it before it can retreat. A Jenner or Spider might not have the firepower or armor to solo it before help arrives. On the other hand, my well designed Medium, being faster than the Assaults of my own team, can arrive in time to engage, and deal enough damage to cripple or destroy it, while having the speed (lacking in most heavies and assaults) and armor (lacking in Lights) to then disengage and return to friendly lines before OpFor reinforcements can destroy me. Feel free to add in Victor, Highlander or Atlas. As I have gleefully ambushed and soloed them all.

No,I don't have the exact math for that, anymore than you do for your claim of "insignificant differences" in speed and mobility. I just have the hundreds of solo Assault Mech kills to tell me that I can. And in the end, that is all I, or my Clan, really need.

See but the burden of proof is on you not me. I'm saying what most people think in this game. Scaling is bad and the agility/speed difference between Mediums and Assaults is out of whack.

You are the one who came in and started spouting off about how getting upgrades to mediums is just a bonus because they are already so awesome.

All you do is sit and exclaim about how amazing you are in mediums and how many assault mechs you've killed (which is a totally silly thing to say, I'm sure people in locusts have killed assaults).

Mediums are not in a good place, they need help. You coming in and pretending it's not a big deal does not help that at all. Why don't you go post some fan fic or something about ************ while you solo an Atlas or something instead?