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Buff Mediums Now!


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#121 Mechteric

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:13 AM

More speed = no, because then you'd just be running around with the same weapons a light mech has, but much easier to hit than a light.

More armor = no, the rules of max armor based on tonnage works well.


You're right that mediums need help, but I think you're on to the wrong ideas as to why they have problems and the appropriate ways to fix them.


Firstly, SRMs being broken hurts mediums the most, at least the ones that rely heavily on missile mounts (Cent, Treb, Griff, Wolv). Once these weapons can deal good damage reliably again, we should see an upswing of fast brawlers to ruin those snipers' day.

Secondly, most medium mechs are simply too tall. Being too big without the armor to deal with the repercussions means your body parts can be targeted too easily and no amount of speed will help you much there. If they can be shortened by just a head's height or so (the hunchback is a good target height I think), then it should help the issue immensely.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 17 February 2014 - 07:14 AM.


#122 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:15 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 17 February 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

More speed = no, because then you'd just be running around with the same weapons a light mech has, but much easier to hit than a light.

More armor = no, the rules of max armor based on tonnage works well.


You're right that mediums need help, but I think you're on to the wrong ideas as to why they have problems and the appropriate ways to fix them.


Firstly, SRMs being broken hurts mediums the most, at least the ones that rely heavily on missile mounts (Cent, Treb, Griff, Wolv). Once these weapons can deal good damage reliably again, we should see an upswing of fast brawlers to ruin those snipers' day.

Secondly, most medium mechs are simply too tall. Being too big without the armor to deal with the repercussions means your body parts can be targeted too easily and no amount of speed will help you much there. If they can be shortened by just a head's height or so (the hunchback is a good target height I think), then it should help the issue immensely.


They also need to look at agility, not just speed.

The 80kph Victor is just as...if not more agile (due to Jump Jets) than almost every medium that is packing any sort of real weaponry (Sure, you can go faster as a medium, but you have 3 SSRM's and 2 Medium Lasers as your loadout).

Need to get to where Mediums do something better.

#123 Andross Deverow

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:27 AM

View PostByteHacker, on 14 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

As we all know, medium mechs serve no purpose. :)

They are not fast enough to run away from a fight and come out intact and not strong enough to pack a punch.

Medium mechs really need a buff. Especially the Centurions ;)

I propose MOAR speed and MOAR armour and MOAR everything

Posted Image

My suggestion to you is to start running heavy mechs if you feel this way. I do just fine in my mediums you just need to know how to use them properly and stop trying to stand toe to toe with more dangerous adveraries.

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 17 February 2014 - 07:28 AM.


#124 DocBach

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:13 AM

I was hoping this thread would be about dropping medium lasers back to 3 heat to help brawlers since ghost heat and engine caps nerfed the 4P which was why they were nerfed to begin with.

#125 FupDup

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:14 AM

View PostDocBach, on 17 February 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

I was hoping this thread would be about dropping medium lasers back to 3 heat to help brawlers since ghost heat and engine caps nerfed the 4P which was why they were nerfed to begin with.

That would help too. :)

#126 KAT Ayanami

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:18 AM

So, OP got a good game and wants a pat on the back?

Great... if we all start posting pictures of +1000 dmg battles, we will be here forever sorting through crap.

#127 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:33 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 17 February 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:


Yeah but that's now how it would work.

You'd take your big Atlas out, score a ton of points killing all the crappy mediums that people are using to farm, and end up making more than enough c-bill's to keep playing it.

R/R does not work how it was implemented and how the game was supposed to be set up.

Thats weird Nick Cause it worked as intended from my (F)Atlas cockpit. I had a standard 300 engine for survivability, Used CASE on my Ammo, stayed with other Assaults and rarely wandered to close to the front cause LRMs was my only viable weapon.

When R&R died, I upgraded to a much larger XL for more speed, didn't worry much about CASE as I didn't need to pay for repairs. I had a 1.2+ KDR the whole time Running a Mech I would not have afforded had we had R&R.

#128 Mechteric

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:38 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 17 February 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Thats weird Nick Cause it worked as intended from my (F)Atlas cockpit. I had a standard 300 engine for survivability, Used CASE on my Ammo, stayed with other Assaults and rarely wandered to close to the front cause LRMs was my only viable weapon.

When R&R died, I upgraded to a much larger XL for more speed, didn't worry much about CASE as I didn't need to pay for repairs. I had a 1.2+ KDR the whole time Running a Mech I would not have afforded had we had R&R.


Doesn't seem like a good argument for R&R, since running an XL on an Atlas is pretty close to the worst thing you can do in this game.

#129 Bagheera

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:46 AM

View Postmeteorol, on 17 February 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

Stop creating a new thread 30 sec after you had a decent match in a non meta mech.



Stop making sense, the internet is no place for that sort of thing.

#130 GoManGo

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:52 AM

This topic is a perfect example of why PGI never understood PC MechWarrior at all. Once mediums were a blast to play in battles of course it was because of private lobby's and league games .Almost all leagues had a standard bidding format like map weather mech tonnages ETC.A lot of times you would not see but 1 assault or 1-2 lights in a12v12 match.

In the old planetary leagues your drops on planet battles were determined by what your factory's on that planet could produce and if you were a small mercenary corporation that meant a lot of mediums and some lights.Not to many lights because they were scouts mostly and the mediums did most of the fighting with a few heavies an a assault if you could afford one.

MWO to me has lost the ability to have fun have some great meta and be diverse and interesting. PGI/IGP are total idiots to build a game that does not represent PC MechWarrior hardly at all.And many new and old players just shake are heads and go WHY?

#131 fandre

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:12 AM

I have played a lot matches with my medium mechs but with the development of MWO I tend more and more to play heavy mechs. IMO they are better than mediums in any way.

So I would realy like to see some buffs for mediums. My favorite ideas are:
- Change the size of mechs. Make mediums smaler and heavier mechs larger.
- Change the agility of mechs. Make mediums the more agile mechs and other lesser, especially assaults.
- Give mediums mechs a permanent c-bill bonus.
- Give the more module slots or modification modules.

Edited by fandre, 17 February 2014 - 09:13 AM.


#132 Trauglodyte

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:54 AM

Here is the thing: Mediums are fine in a vacuum but are not ok in MW:O. MWO broke the system by implementing a jacked up engine formula. Scouts were meant to be the fastest, scout killers slightly behind, strikers behind them, normal mediums, vanguard heavies/assaults, and then the line holders. But, in the game in which we play, every Light can go the same speed (except that they screwed up further by increasing the engine caps for the Locust, Mando, and Spider) and speed isn't so much a benefit anymore. Mediums were always intended to be the filler in the lances. You had one or two prized Heavies/Assaults and a couple of Scout types to go find stuff and then relied on the Mediums to do the heavy lifting. It was that way due to the economy in place in the lore and how expensive it was to operate anything bigger than 60 tons. We don't have that in place so there is nothing in the game that prevents a company from dropping with 12 Atlases, for example. There are only a few House first line units that run like that and they're the prized unit amongst all of them which meant that those units were only unleashed in situations where they could absolutely not lose OR it was the very last straw and the commanders had no alternative. Back to our game, if there is nothing to prevent the game from being nothing but Heavies and Assaults, then there is no place for the Medium mech to operate. And, because of the engine cap issue, if Heavies and the lighter Assaults can reach a top speed within 15-25 kph of the Mediums, then there is no point in taking something lighter. And, finally, bringing up the economy, Joe is absolutely right. If there is no down side to the cost of running that big expensive really brittle (XL concept) Heavy or Assault, there is no need to bring the stalwart Hunchback or Centurion.

So, we need to either:
  • Institute a cost function in the game that financially restricts the running of the Heavies and Assaults
  • Scrap the engine formula, or reduce the formula caps for Heavies and Assaults while limiting the Speed Tweak cap
The concept of the weight limitation on drops isn't really going to do anything. The big units already run:
  • 6 Highlanders w/ 6 Jenner
  • 4 Highlanders, 4 3Ds, and 4 Jenners
  • 4 Highlanders, 2 Victors, 2 Shadowhawks, and 4 Jenners
Implementing a weight limitation simply means that they'll continue to bring the same mechs but alter the numbers of those brought. It doesn't do anything to help the Medium mech, per se. It just provides the illusion that it does by forcing the drop commander to redistribute the weight on the lower end. But, you'll still never see the Centurion, Trebuchet, etc in those drops.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 17 February 2014 - 09:56 AM.


#133 Red Line Pilot

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:52 AM

Game needs customizable rules to set restrictions to the mechs allowed in a match, it will solve everything!

Host your own game and configure weight, weapon distribution, map, heat parameters, chassis restrictions, game modes, configurable weapon definitions, custom maps, etc etc etc

I've spend more on this game then any other, yet it gives about 20% of the features i get in any other......

What am even doing here :S

#134 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:54 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 17 February 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:


Doesn't seem like a good argument for R&R, since running an XL on an Atlas is pretty close to the worst thing you can do in this game.

Some players could afford to play it other couldn't. I would be in the couldn't, so I wouldn't. I would work a different style of play as I did in the past. If I want to play an Atlas I better be ready for the weaknesses as well as the strengths. One weakness, It is expensive to run one!

#135 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 01:17 PM

hey look...... I posted 1000 pts in a Medium lets use that to epeen.....

I've seen a Locust break 1000 damage. What does that prove again, exactly?

GG, close.

#136 Trauglodyte

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

Bishop, did you really just GG close? Don't be that guy!

#137 FupDup

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:23 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 17 February 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

Bishop, did you really just GG close? Don't be that guy!

LORD BISHOP

ggclose

#138 YueFei

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

Bigger maps, multiple objectives. Medium mechs may not have a tactical speed advantage, but they do have a strategic speed advantage. In a 300 meter foot race between an AC/20 HBK and an AC/20 Cataphract, both running big STD engines, the HBK wins by only ~1 second or so. That's not likely to be significant (nevermind the fact that the Cataphract can have jump jets and can climb things that the HBK can't, that's a game mechanic issue since the intro of Slope Climbing Mechanics, not an issue of balance between weight classes). But make that a 3000 meter foot race, and the HBK arrives 12 seconds faster, enough to rip off 3 shots before a Cataphract could arrive in the same situation.

Like a running back who has just enough speed to make it to the edge faster than the opposing Linebackers, before turning up field to gain yards, Medium mechs don't necessarily need to be as fast as Light mechs.

But there has to be something actually *useful* out there on the map somewhere.

Realistically, the infrastructure that is required to support an army, covers a much larger area of land than that army can defend all of. If they tried, they'd spread themselves so thin that the enemy would be able to concentrate on one area at a time and punch through each one. The Allies in WW2 took the trouble to create inflatable balloons "dressed up" to look like Tanks, to fool the enemy into thinking they were going to attack at a completely different place.

They should put more than just these cheesy oil rigs on the map. Put a comm tower that acts as the C3I link between all *defending* mechs (assume attackers have orbital supremacy). If that comm tower is destroyed, you lose contact with any friendly mech that is not in your LOS *and* within a certain range (say, 1km). Of course you can still chat and talk using 3rd party programs, but you lose information sharing and target info sharing. Allow attackers C3I at all times with satellite links (offsetting the advantage that defenders have with base turrets). Put in an actual artillery battery that can be attacked and destroyed to deny the enemy the use of artillery strikes. Put in an airfield from which aircraft are sortied to drop air strikes. I mean, this is all back-of-the-napkin kind of brainstorming. Put things on the map that actually *matter* and affect the flow of the battle. Spread them around the map in a plausible manner, and now suddenly things open up and there are multiple choices to be made about what objectives you'll attack and defend, and with what types of mechs and how many mechs. It starts to feel more like a Battlefield and less like a Solaris Arena.

Edited by YueFei, 17 February 2014 - 03:29 PM.


#139 Trauglodyte

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:32 PM

Great! Now it's spreading! Everyone get a penicillin shot.

#140 Deathlike

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:33 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 17 February 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

Great! Now it's spreading! Everyone get a penicillin shot.


It's too late man. Insanity is seeping into the minds of the disgruntled.


View PostFupDup, on 17 February 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

LORD BISHOP

ggclose


LORD DL

ggclothes





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