285 replies to this topic

[lsp]

Think it's funny people think mediums should be on par with heavys and assaults. New to mechwarrior are you?

[990Dreams]

This has been proposed many times. Be more specific.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 17 February 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[YueFei]

Deathlike, on 17 February 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

It's too late man. Insanity is seeping into the minds of the disgruntled.




LORD DL

ggclothes

KEKEKEKE

Oh LORD!

ggclones

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lsp, on 17 February 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Think it's funny people think mediums should be on par with heavys and assaults. New to mechwarrior are you?

Actually that's the problem, they are on par with heavys and assaults, just in the wrong ways. Mediums are the same size at heavys and assaults. And on top of that, with the way engines, agility and jump jets are in this game...just barely any more maneuverable than an 80 ton assault mech.

I'm fine of Medium's aren't as good at killing. But they should be smaller, faster and more agile.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 17 February 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Artgathan]

YueFei, on 17 February 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

(Shortened, essentially: "bigger maps allow for mobility advantages to shine")

While I agree that this would lead to interesting game play (and I would personally love to see objective-based modes where control over the objectives imparts different advantages), I think this sort of thing has a few issues. For instance, you mentioned a 3000m distance to be covered. For a mech moving at 100 kph, this amounts to nearly two minutes of walking. I don't think many players would enjoy walking for two minutes (and consider that in your typical assault mech this time would be drastically increased).

I agree that we need an environment that allows for the mobility of mediums to shine, but I don't think drastically increasing the size of the maps is the solution. Increasing map size exacerbates existing problems (emphasis on long-range meta, long "time to engagement", low c-bill earnings) while potentially introducing new ones (these maps become hell for Assault mechs).

By contrast, if we boosted the mobility of mediums (tighter/faster turns, faster accel/deceleration) and stuck them into tight urban environment (where it is difficult for heavier mechs to maneuver) we may be able to achieve the same results.

lsp, on 17 February 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Think it's funny people think mediums should be on par with heavys and assaults. New to mechwarrior are you?

From Sarna.com: "Better armed than light 'Mechs, medium 'Mechs can often outmaneuver heavier opponents in combat and bring their weapons to bear with better effect to the point of being superior combatants in single combat, given time and suitable terrain."

It sort of sounds like... Mediums are supposed to be on par with heavies and assaults.

[YueFei]

Artgathan, on 17 February 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

While I agree that this would lead to interesting game play (and I would personally love to see objective-based modes where control over the objectives imparts different advantages), I think this sort of thing has a few issues. For instance, you mentioned a 3000m distance to be covered. For a mech moving at 100 kph, this amounts to nearly two minutes of walking. I don't think many players would enjoy walking for two minutes (and consider that in your typical assault mech this time would be drastically increased).

I agree that we need an environment that allows for the mobility of mediums to shine, but I don't think drastically increasing the size of the maps is the solution. Increasing map size exacerbates existing problems (emphasis on long-range meta, long "time to engagement", low c-bill earnings) while potentially introducing new ones (these maps become hell for Assault mechs).

By contrast, if we boosted the mobility of mediums (tighter/faster turns, faster accel/deceleration) and stuck them into tight urban environment (where it is difficult for heavier mechs to maneuver) we may be able to achieve the same results.

I think a wide variety of missions and maps would satisfy all players. I don't have a problem with marching for 2 minutes, but I can see it being boring for some people. I honestly wouldn't mind that some maps/missions are best achieved with 12 Assault mechs, such clashes are epic in their own way. But it'd be nice to see different missions and maps calling for different team compositions.

Just like in football, they put in different personnel packages for different down-and-distance situations. Sometimes if it's just inches to go, you *do* want to put in your jumbo package and smash through the other team with the brute force of all your 300+ pound guys.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

It sort of sounds like... Mediums are supposed to be on par with heavies and assaults.

Actually, what Sarna is actually saying there is that a Medium mech's movement capabilities are supposed to dwarf that of the slow Heavy and Assaults thus giving them a positive that can, in the right hands, balance out the fact that said medium is losing weight in terms of armor and weaponry. The problem, though, is that isn't the case. My Atlas can twist fast enough to keep a Light/Medium in his front sights given that they're further out than 90m, give or take. So, what little speed bonus that Mediums may have over the slow Heavies and Assaults are rendered pointless when our maps are extremely open and/or small and the opposing mechs are quick enough (note: QUICK, not fast) to keep the target in the attack vector. To add to that, as I said before, most Heavies and fast Assaults are fast enough (note: FAST) to keep up with the Mediums to the point of keeping them within their weapon ranges. They may not be in the optimal range but still within range. Given the fact that most Heavies and Assaults are carrying enough weapons to rival that of a Macross battleship (see the 80's cartoon "Star Blazers") and even the speed bonus isn't worth it.

Quote

Bishop Steiner, Deathlike, and YuiFei

GGmoan

Edited by Trauglodyte, 17 February 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[fandre]

Trauglodyte, on 17 February 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

• Institute a cost function in the game that financially restricts the running of the Heavies and Assaults

It could be based on a mech/variant usage statistis which modifies c-bill earnings per match. More often used mechs have lesser c-bill income than often used mechs. Statistics should be realtime and shown in diagramms ... like in stock markets

This would not buff mediums but it would make more mechs interesting to use. IMO this could also be applied to weapon usage.

[SirSlaughter]

I don't care of your buffs.

At 400.000+XP each my centurions deserve 6 bonus jumpjet at 0 tons cost. What are you waiting for? Start the scripting job

Edited by SirSlaughter, 18 February 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Black Ivan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 February 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

Actually that's the problem, they are on par with heavys and assaults, just in the wrong ways. Mediums are the same size at heavys and assaults. And on top of that, with the way engines, agility and jump jets are in this game...just barely any more maneuverable than an 80 ton assault mech.

I'm fine of Medium's aren't as good at killing. But they should be smaller, faster and more agile.

Excatly my thoughts. Mediums have ar hit signature comparable to a heavy Mech and are easier to kill.
Matching games by max weights would help bringing medium Mechs more into games as well.

[Lykaon]

Seems to me this is an excellent example of what a medium mech can accomplish when it's ignored by the enemy.

I have had games like this myself,the enemy doesn't pay enough attention to my Wolverine and I manage to tear them up.


This does not change the truth of the issues medium mechs face.

1) They are as large as heavy and some assault mechs yet lack the armor or speed to compensate for having larger profiles.

2) In many cases lack the tonnage and hardpoint layouts to compete in the meta.

3) the current meta is all about flinging 30-40 point pin point alphas around.Most mediums can not absorb that damage without being severley compromised.Many mediums can be destroyed in as few as 2 hits due to the use of XL engines to produce nearly survivable speeds.

[Rebas Kradd]

Trauglodyte, on 17 February 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

My Atlas can twist fast enough to keep a Light/Medium in his front sights given that they're further out than 90m, give or take. So, what little speed bonus that Mediums may have over the slow Heavies and Assaults are rendered pointless...

I know this was only a specific instance of a bigger problem, but what engine are you using in your Atlas? Because if it's the 325+ that most respectable Atlas pilots are running, you've sacrificed a lot of firepower and thus there HAS been a tradeoff.

I agree with your general point, though...I don't run mediums unless I can break 90 kph with them.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 18 February 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 17 February 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

While I agree that this would lead to interesting game play (and I would personally love to see objective-based modes where control over the objectives imparts different advantages), I think this sort of thing has a few issues. For instance, you mentioned a 3000m distance to be covered. For a mech moving at 100 kph, this amounts to nearly two minutes of walking. I don't think many players would enjoy walking for two minutes (and consider that in your typical assault mech this time would be drastically increased).

I agree that we need an environment that allows for the mobility of mediums to shine, but I don't think drastically increasing the size of the maps is the solution. Increasing map size exacerbates existing problems (emphasis on long-range meta, long "time to engagement", low c-bill earnings) while potentially introducing new ones (these maps become hell for Assault mechs).

By contrast, if we boosted the mobility of mediums (tighter/faster turns, faster accel/deceleration) and stuck them into tight urban environment (where it is difficult for heavier mechs to maneuver) we may be able to achieve the same results.



From Sarna.com: "Better armed than light 'Mechs, medium 'Mechs can often outmaneuver heavier opponents in combat and bring their weapons to bear with better effect to the point of being superior combatants in single combat, given time and suitable terrain."

It sort of sounds like... Mediums are supposed to be on par with heavies and assaults.

Given time and suitable terrain. That is a pretty big qualifier. Kinda like saying that in the right cercumstances a Volvo is better than an Abrams!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 February 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Rebas Kradd, on 18 February 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I know this was only a specific instance of a bigger problem, but what engine are you using in your Atlas? Because if it's the 325+ that most respectable Atlas pilots are running, you've sacrificed a lot of firepower and thus there HAS been a tradeoff.

I agree with your general point, though...I don't run mediums unless I can break 90 kph with them.

350STD w/ Endo 2 Er Lrg Lasers, AC20, 2 LRM5s, and an SRM6. I had to take the upsized engine, from the 300 or even 320 that I was looking at using, just to fit in the double heat sinks. ES and AC20s don't leave a lot of room to be desired.

[Ryan Steel]

Did Bishop just say ggclose?


Also, if you want to buff mediums, I won't say no. My precious...

LORD STEEL
ggclose

***Edit: everyone is saying ggclose. hahahaha.....HAHAHA....HUUUUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE

Edited by Ryan Steel, 18 February 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

[Ryan Steel]

[Murzao]

Mediums are fine. The problem in this game is that there is no reason not to zergball it. There are no tactics required, no base defense, no battle lines, no scouting of enemy for fear of being flanked or capped. Back with original base capture speed I could win the game solo just by capping when the enemy cowered in a corner and sent back 2 light mechs which I killed easily.

The more spread out the mechs are the better mediums do....as they are the best 1v1 mechs. But nowadays it's just zerg vs zerg..so mediums require long range weapons to even be useful as one cannot charge 6-8 mechs solely with gimpy SRMs.

[Ryan Steel]

Honestly though, what Trauglodyte is saying is exactly what Adrian Steel's position was. In the right hands, a medium should be able to out-maneuver a heavy or an assault. The examples of the best medium pilots in the game doing just this is a poor example. If you took the same pilots and made them face each other as heavies/assaults vs mediums in this game, the agile heavies and assaults would be able to match their maneuvering, at least more or less, and their heavier weapon and armor loadouts would outright trump them.

I love my HBK and do well with it but the key to my success is being very careful about not biting more than I can chew. It's very tempting for me to do so, and in some rare occasions I fall into this trap, and with the speed of Assaults and Heavies in this game I can't quickly fix my error and run fast enough to escape. One small miscalculation and I'm toast.

For instance, the other day on Frozen City playing solo and starting on the high side I decided to rush through the cave and attempt a backstab. It was a risk/reward decision and I was putting my chips down on my pugs to push up. On my radar I could see my pugs had made that attempt, so I exited the cave in anticipation of making my move. For some reason, they quickly pulled back and by the time I realized this it was too late. The Victor and triple UAC Ilya that I pissed off by alphaing them in the back quickly turned around and chased me. With 98 kph I was unable to bug out fast enough to cover. These mechs were having no trouble keeping up to me. I basically got ********* by the triple UACs and that PPC Victor.

My mistake, but that miscaculation should probably have been correctable with a damage penalty for my stupidity, of course. But I simply had no chance in hell of getting away. It is what it is, and I can learn from this error and whatnot, but I have to note that I don't pay that type of price with any other mech class for making a careless error. It definitely doesn't encourage the use of the class for weaker pilots.

Edited by Ryan Steel, 18 February 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ryan Steel, on 18 February 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Honestly though, what Trauglodyte is saying is exactly what Adrian Steel's position was. In the right hands, a medium should be able to out-maneuver a heavy or an assault. The examples of the best medium pilots in the game doing just this is a poor example. If you took the same pilots and made them face each other as heavies/assaults vs mediums in this game, the agile heavies and assaults would be able to match their maneuvering, at least more or less, and their heavier weapon and armor loadouts would outright trump them.

I love my HBK and do well with it but the key to my success is being very careful about not biting more than I can chew. It's very tempting for me to do so, and in some rare occasions I fall into this trap, and with the speed of Assaults and Heavies in this game I can't quickly fix my error and run fast enough to escape. One small miscalculation and I'm toast.

For instance, the other day on Frozen City playing solo and starting on the high side I decided to rush through the cave and attempt a backstab. It was a risk/reward decision and I was putting my chips down on my pugs to push up. On my radar I could see my pugs had made that attempt, so I exited the cave in anticipation of making my move. For some reason, they quickly pulled back and by the time I realized this it was too late. The Victor and triple UAC Ilya that I pissed off by alphaing them in the back quickly turned around and chased me. With 98 kph I was unable to bug out fast enough to cover. These mechs were having no trouble keeping up to me. I basically got ********* by the triple UACs and that PPC Victor.

My mistake, but that miscaculation should probably have been correctable with a damage penalty for my stupidity, of course. But I simply had no chance in hell of getting away. It is what it is, and I can learn from this error and whatnot, but I have to note that I don't pay that type of price with any other mech class for making a careless error. It definitely doesn't encourage the use of the class for weaker pilots.

This is my EXACT experience in mediums.

I almost have to stop myself from moving for the first 30 seconds of the match, so that I have a chance to assess and then put myself in the best position to prosper.

But sometimes I just can't help myself, and even at 90kph, pretty much every Heavy and Assault can keep up with me, and track my movements.

Oh and I'm as tall as they are, so not like there is any good natural cover.

It's very frustrating.