285 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

It's usually a confluence of things. That's primarily why the Awesome is not taken serious compared to the Victor.

You could also argue the Awesome isnt taken seriously because of the Victor. I saw plenty of Awesomes being used before the Victor came out.

The same argument could be made for mediums. The Shadowhawk outclasses the lot of them. So not only are mediums worse than heavies but one medium is better than all the other mediums too.

Edited by Khobai, 20 February 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Khobai, on 20 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

You could also argue the Awesome isnt taken seriously because of the Victor. I saw plenty of Awesomes being used before the Victor came out.

The same argument could be made for mediums. The Shadowhawk outclasses the lot of them. So not only are mediums worse than heavies but one medium is better than all the other mediums too.

I've only ever seen Awesome's in heavy use when LRM's were in some kind of overpowered state.

The reason they aren't used isn't that Victor's are good, it's because they are so damn easy to hit.

Shadow Hawks are used because they are the only Medium that can even begin to compete.

The same way Centurions were back when they could be stick figures.

It's not that Shadow Hawks or the old Centurions were good...they are just the best Medium and people like me want to play Mediums.

[Bagheera]

-8r's were everywhere in closed beta, but that was because of broken arm splash, ability to mount an oversized engine and knockdown.

Just a little nostalgia for fun. The AWS was FoTM for a hot minute.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bagheera, on 20 February 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

-8r's were everywhere in closed beta, but that was because of broken arm splash, ability to mount an oversized engine and knockdown.

Just a little nostalgia for fun. The AWS was FoTM for a hot minute.

I wasn't really counting closed Beta. But yeah there was that too.

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I've only ever seen Awesome's in heavy use when LRM's were in some kind of overpowered state.

The reason they aren't used isn't that Victor's are good, it's because they are so damn easy to hit.

Shadow Hawks are used because they are the only Medium that can even begin to compete.

The same way Centurions were back when they could be stick figures.

It's not that Shadow Hawks or the old Centurions were good...they are just the best Medium and people like me want to play Mediums.

The funny thing about the Awesome is that it isn't really that big of a target. Compare it's height to that of the Victor and it doesn't even come up to the bottom of the V's cockpit. And the Victor is wider from arm to arm than the Awesome. The problem just happens to be that the Awesome is too much this:

http://www.imdb.com/...mi_mi_all_sf_8#

The Awesome's love handles alone jiggle when you walk. Now, that alone is a problem but not anything to worry about. Both the V and the Awesome 9M cap out at a 385 engine or 86.8 kph with Speed Tweak. Both have low slung arms and the Victor gets the worst of that due to all of its non-missile weapons are in the arms. BUT, the Awesome gets crazy screwed with the lack of JJs which means that those nice 4 torso hard points can't be utilized without exposing over half of the mech (which we've established is crazy easy to hit). The best Victor (DS) can use an entire side to shield off damage while the Awesome only gets an off arm. If that wasn't enough, the Awesome is screwed by having only energy hard points which we all know suffer immensely from heat.

SO, it is a combination of the Victor being so much better (hard points, JJs, smaller torsos) and the Awesome being too mediocre (bad hard points and heat limited). And, a lot of the maps just cater to jump sniping due to cover placement and long firing lines.

By the way, if you want to see something kind of comical, take an LRM 20 mech into the training grounds and fire at the Awesome until dead. Note the % of health remaining (if you're quick enough) and how many missiles you fired to kill. Then, go to the Atlas and repeat the same process. You'll be amazed at the number of missiles that ladn on the Awesome vs. the Atlas. It is really sad.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 20 February 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 20 February 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

The funny thing about the Awesome is that it isn't really that big of a target. Compare it's height to that of the Victor and it doesn't even come up to the bottom of the V's cockpit. And the Victor is wider from arm to arm than the Awesome. The problem just happens to be that the Awesome is too much this:

http://www.imdb.com/...mi_mi_all_sf_8#

The Awesome's love handles alone jiggle when you walk. Now, that alone is a problem but not anything to worry about. Both the V and the Awesome 9M cap out at a 385 engine or 86.8 kph with Speed Tweak. Both have low slung arms and the Victor gets the worst of that due to all of its non-missile weapons are in the arms. BUT, the Awesome gets crazy screwed with the lack of JJs which means that those nice 4 torso hard points can't be utilized without exposing over half of the mech (which we've established is crazy easy to hit). The best Victor (DS) can use an entire side to shield off damage while the Awesome only gets an off arm. If that wasn't enough, the Awesome is screwed by having only energy hard points which we all know suffer immensely from heat.

SO, it is a combination of the Victor being so much better (hard points, JJs, smaller torsos) and the Awesome being too mediocre (bad hard points and heat limited). And, a lot of the maps just cater to jump sniping due to cover placement and long firing lines.

It's a lot of reasons. But it is just so damn easy with Advanced Zoom and an AC/PPC to core an Awesome. I LOVE seeing them on the opposing team.

[Trauglodyte]

I get happy about it too. Then, I remember how much I love my Awesome and how my kdr has nose dived since the PPC/GR kicked in. You can't take one out and do anything well. And, if you do, you spend a great deal of time hiding to cool down. You can run a 9M with a 325 engine, 1 ER PPC, 2 LPLs, and 3 Md Lasers with 17 DHSs but you suck nuts at range and doing too much spread damage up close all while being a majorly easy target to hit at any range. You can slap in a 375XL with 3 PPCs and 3 Md Lasers w/ 20 DHSs but then you're extremly easy to core on any torso, you're still running too hot, and you still suck up close meaning that you have to work 10x as hard to get a firing lane where you're not going to get pummeled by poptarts. And, you don't have the luxury of hill humping like the Stalker.

My poor Awesome is the ultimate collection of bad. circumstances.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 20 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

I get happy about it too. Then, I remember how much I love my Awesome and how my kdr has nose dived since the PPC/GR kicked in. You can't take one out and do anything well. And, if you do, you spend a great deal of time hiding to cool down. You can run a 9M with a 325 engine, 1 ER PPC, 2 LPLs, and 3 Md Lasers with 17 DHSs but you suck nuts at range and doing too much spread damage up close all while being a majorly easy target to hit at any range. You can slap in a 375XL with 3 PPCs and 3 Md Lasers w/ 20 DHSs but then you're extremly easy to core on any torso, you're still running too hot, and you still suck up close meaning that you have to work 10x as hard to get a firing lane where you're not going to get pummeled by poptarts. And, you don't have the luxury of hill humping like the Stalker.

My poor Awesome is the ultimate collection of bad. circumstances.

I've been that way too, spending so much time in Medium mech's. I think I'm a better more patient player for it. But I still have times where it gets very, very frustrating.

[Trauglodyte]

Yup. Loving my 65 ton Hunchback Jager, though. And I tried to un-meta my Victor only to fail in doing so. I had it in my mind that I could toss in a standard engine, keep the AC20 and Md Lasers, and add in an LRM rack for range. Know what happened? LRMs turned out to be dead weight and I sucked balls in the brawl. So, back I went to PPCs and the AC20 w/ a STD engine. I'm half happy cause I like the big cannon but I hate that I'm still a semi-poptarter.

[FactorlanP]

Bagheera, on 20 February 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Just a little nostalgia for fun. The AWS was FoTM for a hot minute.

I remember that. The Goons enjoyed packing enormous engines into them so they were fast and packing something like a hundred and fifty medium pulse lasers.

Then they would squaaaawk and death ball roll to the cap zone.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 20 February 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yup. Loving my 65 ton Hunchback Jager, though. And I tried to un-meta my Victor only to fail in doing so. I had it in my mind that I could toss in a standard engine, keep the AC20 and Md Lasers, and add in an LRM rack for range. Know what happened? LRMs turned out to be dead weight and I sucked balls in the brawl. So, back I went to PPCs and the AC20 w/ a STD engine. I'm half happy cause I like the big cannon but I hate that I'm still a semi-poptarter.

Single LRM launchers are in my opinion the single worst investment of tonnage you can make in this entire game.

They eat ammo like crazy. They don't act like any other weapon in the game. They have a massive dead zone.

On top of that, if it's a 15 or 20, you need Artemis.

If you don't mount TAG, you are screwed if ECM comes into play.

You have to use Advanced Decay if you want a chance of it hitting.

Oh and of course, one AMS vs. a single LRM launcher basically means you aren't doing anything.

God it's stupidly frustrating how they've set this up.

[Trauglodyte]

But normal SRMs aren't much of an option because you've got to chain fire them to ensure a great HSR chance. At that point, you've got no long range support which puts you at risk while pushing the line. And, most people don't really brawl so you'd pretty much be on your own which is a death sentence, either because of your opponents or piss poor puggers shooting you in the butt. Streaks are too random and require BAP to use due to ECM.

Frustrating indeed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 20 February 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

But normal SRMs aren't much of an option because you've got to chain fire them to ensure a great HSR chance. At that point, you've got no long range support which puts you at risk while pushing the line. And, most people don't really brawl so you'd pretty much be on your own which is a death sentence, either because of your opponents or piss poor puggers shooting you in the butt. Streaks are too random and require BAP to use due to ECM.

Frustrating indeed.

This is why, regardless of Victor's use of hyperbole, his premise that having a top tier light with Dual AMS is bad for the game is correct.

Missiles are already bad.

You can't use single LRM's. The 15's and 20's spread damage too much. And 5's and 10's get drilled by AMS.

SRM's have the obvious HSR problem.

And Streaks have a super niche role, which is in actuality a crutch for people who are on bad computers/not good shots.

Missiles are terrible in this game. And we keep adding things that make them worse.

Adding a secondary item like NARC, that requires a pretty good investment to use properly and only helps LRM's is NOT a fix.

I hate it immensely that PGI seems disinclined to care.

[meteorol]

Khobai, on 20 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

You could also argue the Awesome isnt taken seriously because of the Victor. I saw plenty of Awesomes being used before the Victor came out.

The same argument could be made for mediums. The Shadowhawk outclasses the lot of them. So not only are mediums worse than heavies but one medium is better than all the other mediums too.

I would say the Victor was just the last nail in the Awesomes coffin. Or maybe it was the Battlemaster. The amount of awesomes on the battlefield got lower with every assault released. Just look at the Battlemaster. It does what the awesome does, but just... better. 5 Tons heavier, higher engine ratings, flat out more hardpoints, the balistic arm. The same bulky, barn wide frame.
The Battlemaster is pretty much a straight upgrade to the awesome. (atleast if you don't take twistrange and so on into consideration)

The amonut of Awesomes already took a huge hit with the stalker release. Also an energy and missile based mech, but alot higher weapons and better hitboxes.

Edited by meteorol, 20 February 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Nic, I'd argue/say that the only weapons in regular use today are the Md Laser, Lrg Laser, PPC, and AC2s, 5s, 20s, and the UAC. LRMs have their place but are too slow and too easy to avoid or emaciate. SRMs are too slow and don't track. AC10s got nerfed again for no reason and weigh too much for what amounts to a PPC. Pulse Lasers are just straight up bad. And Small Lasers, MGs, and Flamers aren't worth the investment for what you get compared to how close you have to get to use them. And yes, I purposely didn't mention the LB.

When you've got 7 weapons from which to choose, the best chassis are going to get boiled down really quick like. The stupid power of the JJs just makes it that much worse. It is why we have the mechs that we have at the top.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 20 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Nic, I'd argue/say that the only weapons in regular use today are the Md Laser, Lrg Laser, PPC, and AC2s, 5s, 20s, and the UAC. LRMs have their place but are too slow and too easy to avoid or emaciate. SRMs are too slow and don't track. AC10s got nerfed again for no reason and weigh too much for what amounts to a PPC. Pulse Lasers are just straight up bad. And Small Lasers, MGs, and Flamers aren't worth the investment for what you get compared to how close you have to get to use them. And yes, I purposely didn't mention the LB.

When you've got 7 weapons from which to choose, the best chassis are going to get boiled down really quick like. The stupid power of the JJs just makes it that much worse. It is why we have the mechs that we have at the top.

Pretty much. I mean I see other things. But when it comes down to being truly effective, it's about 7 weapons.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 20 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

You could also argue the Awesome isnt taken seriously because of the Victor. I saw plenty of Awesomes being used before the Victor came out.

The same argument could be made for mediums. The Shadowhawk outclasses the lot of them. So not only are mediums worse than heavies but one medium is better than all the other mediums too.

TBH, the Stalker surpassed the Awesome long ago. For a mech that weighs 5 tons more, hill humps great like noone's business (high weapon mounts matter), and lacks arm articulation and has a poorer torso twist than the Awesome, the Victor is simply a reminder of what you could do better at this position and 5 more tons gets you a better "Awesome". So... it's a sad state of affairs really.

meteorol, on 20 February 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

I would say the Victor was just the last nail in the Awesomes coffin. Or maybe it was the Battlemaster. The amount of awesomes on the battlefield got lower with every assault released. Just look at the Battlemaster. It does what the awesome does, but just... better. 5 Tons heavier, higher engine ratings, flat out more hardpoints, the balistic arm. The same bulky, barn wide frame.
The Battlemaster is pretty much a straight upgrade to the awesome. (atleast if you don't take twistrange and so on into consideration)

I'm not a Battlemaster fan, so I'll leave it at that.

Quote

The amonut of Awesomes already took a huge hit with the stalker release. Also an energy and missile based mech, but alot higher weapons and better hitboxes.

TBH, the Awesome's role was surpassed long ago. Even the module slot reduction hasn't really kept the Stalker's prowess over the Awesome in check. I'm sure the Awesome is a better brawler because of arm articulation and torso twist, but we're not in a brawling favored environment at the moment.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 20 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

You could also argue the Awesome isnt taken seriously because of the Victor. I saw plenty of Awesomes being used before the Victor came out.

The same argument could be made for mediums. The Shadowhawk outclasses the lot of them. So not only are mediums worse than heavies but one medium is better than all the other mediums too.

But you'd be wrong. Cause the Awesome has never been taken seriously. even before Open Beta and the Victor.

[Krueppy]

Guess has already been said before here, but you need to play the medium right. Then they work just fine. I love my Cicada, Shadow and Kintaro and I am pretty successful with them. Don't really see the need for a buff. Kintaro 18 as ssrm ***** (yea yeah, come on flame me ) and shadow with ac6 as kind of a sniper. It's great. Learn how to use the strength of your mechs. If you go in a brawl with them you don't stand a minute. But that is not your job anyway. Follow the big ones and protect them.
Saying it again, learn to play your medium smart and he'll do a good job for you.

[MERC Mournblade]

Medium mechs are likely meant for the weapons that sorely need a buff (ie, short range weapons/small weapons). As it stands, the long range weapons are better than the short range weapons up close, which hurts mediums immensely. Ghost heat is a culprit, as well as horrendous cooldowns and heat for light weaponry.

-M