285 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MERC Mournblade, on 21 February 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Medium mechs are likely meant for the weapons that sorely need a buff (ie, short range weapons/small weapons). As it stands, the long range weapons are better than the short range weapons up close, which hurts mediums immensely. Ghost heat is a culprit, as well as horrendous cooldowns and heat for light weaponry.

-M

That's a part of it.

But the fact that Assault mech's go 80kph, and have better models (Victor) than most of the mediums is always going to be an issue. And one that PGI continues to make.

Medium's need to be smaller, and there needs to be a more noticiable difference in speed and agility from Mediums to Assaults.

Right now Mediums cannot dictate a battle at all., You either commit fully, or not at all.

It's a mess really.

[Bishop Steiner]

I do enjoy the continued myth of MediuM Mech Inferiority (comparative.... they are in a tight spot, but hardly DOA... IF you actually know how to play). By all means, please buff my rides of choice even more.

When most Assaults move as fast as a Medium, it also means they are armed like one. And no, even the VTR has nowhere near the agility of a HBK or GRF.

Where Mediums lag is in the current poptart heavy Meta as they can't match the armor and raw firepower of the heavier Meta builds. So few people even know how to use their VTRs do anything beside poptarting that the Speed gap is hardly an issue currently. IF brawling and the like were to return to vogue, then indeed it would be worth a look.

My general opinion is the speed caps should be more stringently enforced, and that each weight class gets a noticeable decline in "engine allowance". Thus lets (using totally perfunctory numbers out of laziness) say Light Mechs would be allowed up to 50% increase over base engine size, then Mediums maybe 40%, Heavies 25 % and Assaults maybe 15%.

Now the bigger you are, the more Guns-n-Armor-acentric you become, whereas the Lighter, the more speed biased.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

I do enjoy the continued myth of MediuM Mech Inferiority (comparative.... they are in a tight spot, but hardly DOA... IF you actually know how to play). By all means, please buff my rides of choice even more.

When most Assaults move as fast as a Medium, it also means they are armed like one. And no, even the VTR has nowhere near the agility of a HBK or GRF.

Where Mediums lag is in the current poptart heavy Meta as they can't match the armor and raw firepower of the heavier Meta builds. So few people even know how to use their VTRs do anything beside poptarting that the Speed gap is hardly an issue currently. IF brawling and the like were to return to vogue, then indeed it would be worth a look.

My general opinion is the speed caps should be more stringently enforced, and that each weight class gets a noticeable decline in "engine allowance". Thus lets (using totally perfunctory numbers out of laziness) say Light Mechs would be allowed up to 50% increase over base engine size, then Mediums maybe 40%, Heavies 25 % and Assaults maybe 15%.

Now the bigger you are, the more Guns-n-Armor-acentric you become, whereas the Lighter, the more speed biased.

Sorry...but have to disagree with you on this. And I think you bias your opinion because you like Mediums so much.

You are a good pilot and would be better in a heavy or assault.

And for reference...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...406172e06c79f72

Took me 2 seconds to find that, it's probably not even the best build. But you sure as hell aren't fitting 2 AC/5's, 2 Medium Lasers and a PPC onto a Shadow Hawk, while moving much faster than 80kph and he has pretty much full armor for an 80 ton mech (shaved a bit off his legs).

Your Shadow Hawk build I believe has 4 Streaks, 2 Mlas and an UAC5. And moves a whole what, 15-20 kph faster? And you are the same size as the Victor.

You don't see a problem with that?

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 February 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Sorry...but have to disagree with you on this. And I think you bias your opinion because you like Mediums so much.

You are a good pilot and would be better in a heavy or assault.

And for reference...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...406172e06c79f72

Took me 2 seconds to find that, it's probably not even the best build. But you sure as hell aren't fitting 2 AC/5's, 2 Medium Lasers and a PPC onto a Shadow Hawk, while moving much faster than 80kph and he has pretty much full armor for an 80 ton mech (shaved a bit off his legs).

Your Shadow Hawk build I believe has 4 Streaks, 2 Mlas and an UAC5. And moves a whole what, 15-20 kph faster? And you are the same size as the Victor.

You don't see a problem with that?

Nope, I don't. Because I have a superior twist and turn rate, better speed. I drive all mechs. I laugh at the strawman argument "If you do good in X, you would be better in Z", because it misses so many of the nuances that are involved. I know simple things like FoV screw up some very good players from doing well in the Shadowhawk, yet it bothers me not a whit, and I am at best, high average as a player.

I score better individual stats in some heavier chassis, but those stats seldom come close to telling the real story. My 15-20 kph better mobility is often the tide turner in my ability to touch and affect the entire battleline. I have scored more damage in my Ilya and BLR-1D overall, but have turned more fights into wins in my SHD-2D2 and 2H. Harder to quantify without actually being in the match, but for me, far more satisfying. (Especially since usually get my kill on, too)

Am i biased? Certainly, so the question should be, if I am such a "good pilot" WHY am I so Medium Biased? My favorite designs in the game aren't the Mediums, so it isn't wanting to validate my TT faves (Warhammer and VTR are my faves form that). It's because where too often my Lights have lacked the firepower to turn the tide, or my Heavies and Assaults the mobility, the JJ capable Mediums have usually given me the flexibility to respond to virtually any situation. And the Shad's superior hitbox design more than compensates for it's height, especially when you account the extra 15-20 kph which has time and again allowed me to extract from situations where even my beloved Victor would have been destroyed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Nope, I don't. Because I have a superior twist and turn rate, better speed. I drive all mechs. I laugh at the strawman argument "If you do good in X, you would be better in Z", because it misses so many of the nuances that are involved. I know simple things like FoV screw up some very good players from doing well in the Shadowhawk, yet it bothers me not a whit, and I am at best, high average as a player.

I score better individual stats in some heavier chassis, but those stats seldom come close to telling the real story. My 15-20 kph better mobility is often the tide turner in my ability to touch and affect the entire battleline. I have scored more damage in my Ilya and BLR-1D overall, but have turned more fights into wins in my SHD-2D2 and 2H. Harder to quantify without actually being in the match, but for me, far more satisfying. (Especially since usually get my kill on, too)

Am i biased? Certainly, so the question should be, if I am such a "good pilot" WHY am I so Medium Biased? My favorite designs in the game aren't the Mediums, so it isn't wanting to validate my TT faves (Warhammer and VTR are my faves form that). It's because where too often my Lights have lacked the firepower to turn the tide, or my Heavies and Assaults the mobility, the JJ capable Mediums have usually given me the flexibility to respond to virtually any situation. And the Shad's superior hitbox design more than compensates for it's height, especially when you account the extra 15-20 kph which has time and again allowed me to extract from situations where even my beloved Victor would have been destroyed.

I see you really do all of your talking from your "feelings" on things, so this isn't going to go anywhere.

The fact that you feel your AC/5 + 2 MLAS + 4 Streaks is doing so much more than a Jenner with 6 Mlas tells me that.

Oh well, I'm not going to try and change your mind, since you feel so strong in your Mediums.

But this concept that your 15-20kph some how saves you is not true at all, do the math on it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

I see you really do all of your talking from your "feelings" on things, so this isn't going to go anywhere.

The fact that you feel your AC/5 + 2 MLAS + 4 Streaks is doing so much more than a Jenner with 6 Mlas tells me that.

Oh well, I'm not going to try and change your mind, since you feel so strong in your Mediums.

But this concept that your 15-20kph some how saves you is not true at all, do the math on it.

believe what you will. No point reasoning with people who refuse to do ALL the maths. Hardpoints, armor, damage, dps, alpha, heat endurance, speed, jump, twist rates, etc, all combine in myriad ways. But Please insist that only asic addition matters. There is nothing "emotional" about this.

My "Maths" are based a hell of a lot more than KDr and Damage.

If anyone is being "emotional" it's your refusal to grasp that "different strokes for different folks" is a reality.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 February 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Voivode]

B1zmark, on 15 February 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

SRM's aren't broken - they just aren't OP anymore. Neither are lasers bad. Mistaking weapon being balanced for being bad is 2 entirely seperate things. looking at raw stats, here is the top 10 weapons in order of DPS/Ton
SMALL LASER
MACHINE GUN
SRM 2
MEDIUM LASER
SML PULSE LASER
SRM 4
SRM 6
STREAK SRM 2
LRM 5



Here is the top 10 Alpha/Ton
SMALL LASER
MEDIUM LASER
SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6
SML PULSE LASER
STREAK SRM 2
MED PULSE LASER
SRM 6 + ARTEMIS
LRM 5


AC/20's, UAC5's, PPC etc. all rank extremely low in terms of efficiency-per-ton but are dominant currently due to their utility and play style.

It's worthwhile noting that buffing and nerfing weapons arbitrarily should only be done as a last resort when something is massively wrong (like SRM's splashing) and instead the play style causing weapons to be effective should be addressed instead.

All irrelevant data. The problem with SRMs isn't that they don't do enough damage or their DPS is low. It's that often your missiles disappear into the netcode never to be seen again. It's pretty frustrating to lob twenty SRMs into the cherry red cored center torso of an opponent and none of them register.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

F*** these boards. Had a nice long post with lots of numbers get messed up.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

believe what you will. No point reasoning with people who refuse to do ALL the maths. Hardpoints, armor, damage, dps, alpha, heat endurance, speed, jump, twist rates, etc, all combine in myriad ways. But Please insist that only asic addition matters. There is nothing "emotional" about this.

My "Maths" are based a hell of a lot more than KDr and Damage.

If anyone is being "emotional" it's your refusal to grasp that "different strokes for different folks" is a reality.

You are being totally emotional, the inference of different strokes for different folks is also emotional.

It has no grounding in logic. I get it you "like" mediums. The fact that you even brought up KDR as if it means anything boggles my mind.

I had a post with information from Smurfy's showing you the very small differences between a Shadow Hawk and Victor in manuverability. But these crappy boards ate it.

You play better in mediums because you know they are prone to dying quickly, thus leading you to a much more patient cautious approach, which if you applied to a Victor, you would do better.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 February 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ah, and now you are a battlemech psychologist. Enlightening, Dr. Freud.

Or maybe I play in them because I actually do better. But then you obviously know me better than me. Brilliant!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

ah, and now you are a battlemech psychologist. Enlightening, Dr. Freud.

Or maybe I play in them because I actually do better. But then you obviously know me better than me. Brilliant!

Sigh...that's just proving my point.

I'm NOT debating whether you play better in mediums. I've even explained WHY you play better in mediums.

But it doesn't change the fact that assaults are better.

[Fut]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

You play better in mediums because you know they are prone to dying quickly, thus leading you to a much more patient cautious approach, which if you applied to a Victor, you would do better.

Although I do firmly believe that the difference in agility between Mediums and the heavier Mechs needs to be looked at, I think you've hit on something very true here.

I think that a lot of the problems people have in Mediums is that they try to pilot them the same way they do other weight classes, and that simply does not work with the Meds.
There would most likely be a lot less whining on the boards, if people took a deep breath, and played a "calm game" while in Mediums.

Edited by Fut, 21 February 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[Voivode]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Sigh...that's just proving my point.

I'm NOT debating whether you play better in mediums. I've even explained WHY you play better in mediums.

But it doesn't change the fact that assaults are better.

Assaults are heavier, not better. For certain roles, assaults are definitely better, yes. But to say that assaults are better than mediums just in general? No. They are different.

Now I will give you that assaults are EASIER than mediums.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Fut, on 21 February 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Although I do firmly believe that the difference in agility between Mediums and the heavier Mechs needs to be looked at, I think you've hit on something very true here.

I think that a lot of the problems people have in Mediums is that they try to pilot them the same way they do other weight classes, and that simply does not work with the Meds.
There would most likely be a lot less whining on the boards, if people took a deep breath, and played a "calm game" while in Mediums.

Which I totally advocate and do.

But the thing is, playing patient and calm is literally the best play style period.

You HAVE to do it in Mediums to succeed. You can be reckless in any other class and due to size/hardpoints/speed/armor come out on top.

But if you can play patient and calm in an assault mech? You are a total beast.

Voivode, on 21 February 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Assaults are heavier, not better. For certain roles, assaults are definitely better, yes. But to say that assaults are better than mediums just in general? No. They are different.

Now I will give you that assaults are EASIER than mediums.

What roles? There is one role, kill each other. There is no other role.

[C E Dwyer]

TehSBGX, on 14 February 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

*inserts comment about S-hawks being Meta*

Points out its a Centurion-A not a S'Hawk (goes off to 'remember' which one the A is

[C E Dwyer]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Sigh...that's just proving my point.

I'm NOT debating whether you play better in mediums. I've even explained WHY you play better in mediums.

But it doesn't change the fact that assaults are better.

Define better.

There is a big gulf between theory and practice.

In theory anyone that does well in a medium should do better in a heavy or an assault.

But if in practice a person does better in a medium, doesn't that by default make the medium a better mech.


Its like in theory all Mechwarrior matches should be close games, but how many are in practice

[Voivode]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

What roles? There is one role, kill each other. There is no other role.

Killing the other team is a goal, not a role. Your role is the method you take to ensuring your team does just that.

For example, the role of poptart sniper. Take a Victor and a Shadowhawk and place them opposite each other and say "1,2,3 poptartgo!". Victor wins.

Flip it to conquest game mode, the enemy has many light mechs that are both capping and swarming. Moving from pop tarting to chasing down and killing those lights. Take a Victor and a Shadowhawk and place them opposite each other and say "1,2,3 lightkillgo!". Victor loses.

Being the spearhead of a coordinated push? Assault wins.

A quick flanking lance with the right combo of speed and firepower to make it worth it? Medium wins.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Cathy, on 21 February 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Define better.

There is a big gulf between theory and practice.

In theory anyone that does well in a medium should do better in a heavy or an assault.

But if in practice a person does better in a medium, doesn't that by default make the medium a better mech.


Its like in theory all Mechwarrior matches should be close games, but how many are in practice

No, it doesn't. It just means the person is unwilling to adjust. Bishop could be a great assault pilot. He doesn't want to be.

He's limiting himself in the game.

I do it too. It's a conscious decision on my part. I've done the same thing by playing LRM's even when they were their worst. I CHOSE THAT.

It doesn't mean anything that I did well at it.

Voivode, on 21 February 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Killing the other team is a goal, not a role. Your role is the method you take to ensuring your team does just that.

For example, the role of poptart sniper. Take a Victor and a Shadowhawk and place them opposite each other and say "1,2,3 poptartgo!". Victor wins.

Flip it to conquest game mode, the enemy has many light mechs that are both capping and swarming. Moving from pop tarting to chasing down and killing those lights. Take a Victor and a Shadowhawk and place them opposite each other and say "1,2,3 lightkillgo!". Victor loses.

Being the spearhead of a coordinated push? Assault wins.

A quick flanking lance with the right combo of speed and firepower to make it worth it? Medium wins.

You just discussed 4 different scenarios involving killing people. Killing is all we have. It is our role in this game.

As for 2 and 4...Light hunting...I disagree. You are making a ton of assumptions to say the Victor loses there. My dual AMS Firestarter basically gives Bishop's Shadow Hawk an AC5 and 2 Medium Lasers to kill me with. And I'll leg him before he kills me. I mean you can bend the scenario and say it's a Shadow Hawk with 2 AC 5's and a LL, but then you might as well be in a Victor. But I'm sure you'll change the scenario to fit your point.

As for point 4...it's not the Victor and Shadow Hawk vying for that role. It's a Shadow Hawk and Jenner/Firestarter. And I'd much rather have 150kph and 6 Medium Lasers in my quick flanking lance.

[Murzao]

@Nic You don't have to be patient to succeed in Mediums. Mediums have the best evasion tanking ability so you always send them in first and not your Atlas who'd get facepummeled in 5 seconds. Just in a game yesterday I saw 3 assault teammates attempt to surge over a hill, then slow and stop. I went in on the flank and drew fire of the entire enemy team and got in behind them and a building...because the enemy were all shooting/missing me our assault pugs rolled the enemy side (which contained one premade for sure). When you want to cap the enemy base you send in a medium, when you want to surge your zerg but want the ability to retreat, you send in a medium.

Also, numbers do not tell the whole story. Like Abrahams 'PPCs heat should be reduced to 6 to make them heat equal according to his always right maths' over a year ago...I laughed at that hardcore it was so wrong....but they reduced heat to just 8 and we have had over a year of PPCfest even when they're back to 10 heat. Most of the hard metrics don't tell a definitive story (like kdr that is easily misrepresentative of skill) let alone the soft numbers.

Also, SRMs are fine when used right....I use them all the time they are on every one of my builds that have missile slots. They would be perfect with the old spiral pattern though instead of the current buckshot. But they're still useable.

[Obelus]

I imagine the devs do have some numbers on how mediums are doing versus the other weight classes. My guess is it's probably the least successful weight class but by how much I don't know. It may not be statistically significant.

I know I've never been happy with mediums. Not fast enough, tough enough, or hard hitting enough. They seem to sit in a sort of awkward middle area where they don't excel at anything. They can be good light killers but honestly I'd rather do that job in a light.

I'm not sure what the fix is or even that it should be fixed. Should mediums be as good as Assaults? Part of me doesn't think so.

Edited by Obelus, 21 February 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Murzao, on 21 February 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

@Nic You don't have to be patient to succeed in Mediums. Mediums have the best evasion tanking ability so you always send them in first and not your Atlas who'd get facepummeled in 5 seconds. Just in a game yesterday I saw 3 assault teammates attempt to surge over a hill, then slow and stop. I went in on the flank and drew fire of the entire enemy team and got in behind them and a building...because the enemy were all shooting/missing me our assault pugs rolled the enemy side (which contained one premade for sure). When you want to cap the enemy base you send in a medium, when you want to surge your zerg but want the ability to retreat, you send in a medium.

Also, numbers do not tell the whole story. Like Abrahams 'PPCs heat should be reduced to 6 to make them heat equal according to his always right maths' over a year ago...I laughed at that hardcore it was so wrong....but they reduced heat to just 8 and we have had over a year of PPCfest even when they're back to 10 heat. Most of the hard metrics don't tell a definitive story (like kdr that is easily misrepresentative of skill) let alone the soft numbers.

Also, SRMs are fine when used right....I use them all the time they are on every one of my builds that have missile slots. They would be perfect with the old spiral pattern though instead of the current buckshot. But they're still useable.

Sorry, so you made an entire team turn to attack your Medium mech, which let your 3 Assault mechs push over the ridge, and thus Mediums are fine?

First things first...the team who turned were dumb. Just plain flat out dumb. They KNEW the Assaults were there, why would you turn?

And you could've done that same exact thing in a light mech, with less risk to yourself.

But in the end their team is still rediculous for doing that.

And to go on and say SRM's are fine....Good lord.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 February 2014 - 09:48 AM.