285 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Also...just because people seem to think I think Mediums suck and are worthless.

I play Mediums almost exclusively.

I enjoy them. I can use them to great effect.

That does not suddenly mean that the mechanics of this game are totally without fault, and that it is the best use of my ability to play a Medium.

Medium mechs are WAY too big, they should ALWAYS be smaller than Assaults.

Medium mechs need a much larger gap between them and Assaults in terms of speed.

Medium mechs need a much larger gap between them and Assaults in terms of agility/manuverability.

And I might go ahead and say each Medium could use a few more hardpoints for options with regards to load out.

[Davers]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 February 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Thats weird Nick Cause it worked as intended from my (F)Atlas cockpit. I had a standard 300 engine for survivability, Used CASE on my Ammo, stayed with other Assaults and rarely wandered to close to the front cause LRMs was my only viable weapon.

When R&R died, I upgraded to a much larger XL for more speed, didn't worry much about CASE as I didn't need to pay for repairs. I had a 1.2+ KDR the whole time Running a Mech I would not have afforded had we had R&R.

Sounds like you ran an LRM boat. Standard 'brawler' Atlases were very cheap to run.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

No, it doesn't. It just means the person is unwilling to adjust. Bishop could be a great assault pilot. He doesn't want to be.

He's limiting himself in the game.

I do it too. It's a conscious decision on my part. I've done the same thing by playing LRM's even when they were their worst. I CHOSE THAT.

It doesn't mean anything that I did well at it.



You just discussed 4 different scenarios involving killing people. Killing is all we have. It is our role in this game.

As for 2 and 4...Light hunting...I disagree. You are making a ton of assumptions to say the Victor loses there. My dual AMS Firestarter basically gives Bishop's Shadow Hawk an AC5 and 2 Medium Lasers to kill me with. And I'll leg him before he kills me. I mean you can bend the scenario and say it's a Shadow Hawk with 2 AC 5's and a LL, but then you might as well be in a Victor. But I'm sure you'll change the scenario to fit your point.

As for point 4...it's not the Victor and Shadow Hawk vying for that role. It's a Shadow Hawk and Jenner/Firestarter. And I'd much rather have 150kph and 6 Medium Lasers in my quick flanking lance.

Honestly Nic, your first comments show you have NO idea what you are talking about. I prefer to drive mediums, but I drive everything from Embers to Victors. Atlases and Highlanders and Stalkers are too bloody slow and no flexible.

You don't get that "smurfy builds" don't equal "better". Because for some people "Better" is having that extra 10-20% twist rate that allows them to shoot behind them while dodging. Better can be affected by acceleration rates, of which the Victor accelerates and turns and twists slower than my Griffin , Hunchback and I am reasonably sure, Shadowhawk.

Every F-16 hotshot is not going to automatically be better in a F-15, or even F-22 because all chassis have different quirks that are more intuitive to different skill sets. The fact that you steadfastly refuse to understand that mechs are more than JUST the sum of their ground speed and hardpoints shows you really and truly don't get that. And THAT is a very real part of why some people are "natural born Light pilots" and such with assaults, whereas some truly talented assault pilots suck with lights, no matter how hard they try. Few people, no matter what you want to believe, are able to be "masters of everything". True mastery, is finding a skillset you are a natural at, then focusing on it so it becomes instinct. Spreading time, practice and effort to 4 classes might make you good at all 4, but you will never excel as a single class as someone who focuses his energy on it will.

Again, you can't easily quantify chassis flexibility in this game, because it has to do with more than your "maths" are equipped for. The maths you want to use are grade school arithmetic, when the total picture takes calculus. What I do in a ShadowHawk, I quite literally cannot do in a Victor. Because they are different. They handle different. Their weapons are placed different. It's the same reason a person can be an amazing porsche driver and only good with a ferrari.

But you want to view things in this odd black and white world which quite simply does not exist.

[Fut]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Also...just because people seem to think I think Mediums suck and are worthless.

I play Mediums almost exclusively.

I enjoy them. I can use them to great effect.

That does not suddenly mean that the mechanics of this game are totally without fault, and that it is the best use of my ability to play a Medium.

Medium mechs are WAY too big, they should ALWAYS be smaller than Assaults.

Medium mechs need a much larger gap between them and Assaults in terms of speed.

Medium mechs need a much larger gap between them and Assaults in terms of agility/manuverability.

And I might go ahead and say each Medium could use a few more hardpoints for options with regards to load out.

Couldn't agree with you more.
I actually only pilot Mediums, I have a blast in them... But I do think they need a bit of work, nothing crazy, just some minor tweaks here and there would be enough to get them in the right spot.

As for more hardpoints though, I don't see that helping. It can already be tough to fill the hardpoints within the weight restrictions of the chassis. I think that giving them all an extra one (or two) module slots would be the best option. It'd allow for more flexibility on the field, playing into the "Jack of all Trades" sort of mentality.

[Davers]

I enjoy playing mediums. Do I think that assaults and heavies have too much agility and weapon arcs? Sometimes .

Increasing speed (aka larger engines) just means lighter weapons. Buffing weapons (like the SRM) will backfire as heavies and assaults can carry just as many as a medium can, and with more armor.

I would like to see mediums get the most module and consumable slots. That way they would be the most 'versatile' of the mechs. Need a UAV? Need a turret dropped somewhere? How about an arty strike? A little something for every occasion. A jack of all trades one may say.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Davers, on 21 February 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

I enjoy playing mediums. Do I think that assaults and heavies have too much agility and weapon arcs? Sometimes .

Increasing speed (aka larger engines) just means lighter weapons. Buffing weapons (like the SRM) will backfire as heavies and assaults can carry just as many as a medium can, and with more armor.

I would like to see mediums get the most module and consumable slots. That way they would be the most 'versatile' of the mechs. Need a UAV? Need a turret dropped somewhere? How about an arty strike? A little something for every occasion. A jack of all trades one may say.

I'm not really advocating that medium mechs put bigger engines in. That's not the way to go.

I think via the quirk system, they need to beef up the agility and manuverability of mediums, while at the same time nerfing heavies and assaults.

They also need to remove speed tweak from heavies and assaults. It is REALLY bad for this game.

The only reason I advocate for more hardpoints, isn't to necessarily load more weapons, but to give the ability to make more deicisons on which weapons and where they go.

I'd also be good with more module slots, but i'm still waiting to see how PGI changes that system, since it's getting a complete overhaul.

[Davers]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I'm not really advocating that medium mechs put bigger engines in. That's not the way to go.

I think via the quirk system, they need to beef up the agility and manuverability of mediums, while at the same time nerfing heavies and assaults.

They also need to remove speed tweak from heavies and assaults. It is REALLY bad for this game.

The only reason I advocate for more hardpoints, isn't to necessarily load more weapons, but to give the ability to make more deicisons on which weapons and where they go.

I'd also be good with more module slots, but i'm still waiting to see how PGI changes that system, since it's getting a complete overhaul.

Well, assaults are next up for a 'quirk pass '. We will have to wait and see what happens with that.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Davers, on 21 February 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Well, assaults are next up for a 'quirk pass '. We will have to wait and see what happens with that.

Yeah, but the "quirk" pass on mediums was by far one of the most disapointing things I've ever seen. So I'm not holding my breath.

[Davers]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yeah, but the "quirk" pass on mediums was by far one of the most disapointing things I've ever seen. So I'm not holding my breath.

Well, mediums haven't been given the best mechs for the most part to begin with. Asymmetrical designs that are easily disarmed (Hunchback and Centurion), a fat light (Cicada) without arm weapons, etc. I swear the BJ was the Hunchback I always wanted!

[Trauglodyte]

In regards to speeds of Mediums vs. Assaults, you have to remember that, and this is in TT, Hunchies and Centurions cruised at the same speed as the Awesome 9M, Victor, and Battlemaster. The Banshee and Cyclops also went the same speeds. So, there is a lot of history of Assaults moving as fast as Mediums. The thing is, though, that the Mediums that I listed were heavy weapon Mediums and, as such, were saddled with a slow speed due to what they were carrying. The AC20 that the Hunchy 4G carries makes up 28% of its total weight where as it is only 17.5% of the total weight of Victor 9S.

Straight line speed isn't such a big deal. Where the issue really starts to shine is the agility given to Heavies and Assaults meaning that they can turn and slalom just as well given the same speeds. And, it gets worse thanks to the OP nature of jump jets. So, when you see that Victor on the other side cruising along at 65-80kph, you know that he's got more firepower than the Medium, more armor than the Medium, the same speed as the standard slow Mediums (poor guys), and the same agility plus some as the Mediums. As I've said before and as Bishop said, the max engine curve is absolutely borked and makes Assaults stupid fast (85kph on a Victor is just stupid, XL or not). Only the Charger should be moving like that and it got hosed with its weapon load out.

For poops and giggles, I did some messing around on Smurfy's:

Centurion/Hunchback:

• weight spent on max armor and ES (13.06 tons or 26%)
  
• weight spent on max engine and ES (16.72 tons or 33%); 98 kph w/ Speed Tweak
  
• weight spent on max armor, engine, and ES (27.06 tons or 54%)
  
• 22.94 tons (46%) remain after max

Shadowhawk:

• weight spent on max armor and ES (14.56 tons or 26%)
  
• weight spent on max engine and ES (26.5 tons or 48%); 116.6 kph w/ Speed Tweak
  
• weight spent on max armor, engine, and ES (38.06 tons or 69%)
  
• 16.94 tons (31%) remain after max

Victor

• weight spent on max armor and ES (19.44tons or 24%)
  
• weight spent on max engine and ES (33 tons or 41%); 85.8 kph w/ Speed Tweak
  
• weight spent on max armor, engine, and ES (48.44 tons or 61%)
  
• 31.56 tons (39%) remain after max

The big thing that bothers me here is the fact that, even though both the Cent/Hunch moved as fast as the Victor in TT, with max engines in MW:O, the Victor only ends up moving 12% slower. But, it ends up having +46% more armor and can utilize 8.62 more tons on weapons and equipment. On paper, having 46% of a mech's weight to spend looks much more appealing than 39% but the larger the starting base, the more you get. Is a 13 kph speed boost worth the lack of armor and weapon loadout when you get a negligable loss in turning speed and rate before factoring in jump jets (which you only need one right now for max effectiveness).

The one thing that everyone needs to remember is that this game isn't about (1) Medium mech vs (1) Assault mech. The group has to function as the sum of it's parts. The issue remains, though, that nobody is limiting how much weight you can take and, even when that happens, people are still going to cheese the output. The Shadowhawk is better than the Hunchback and Centurion due to hard points and jump jets and completely trounces the Trebuchet in all areas. The PGI idiot formula for building mechs needs to be balanced. But, in their defense, they're trying to balance mechs based on what FASA put out years and years ago so the "give" isn't matching up the current "take".

Edited by Trauglodyte, 21 February 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Shadow Hawk is definitely the best Medium.

But the fact remains that Light's and Assault's are the cream of the crop.

I just like using the Victor example because it's the meta, and it's stupidly good.

I don't get how anyone can argue that Mediums are in a good place right now.

I'm fine if Mediums and Assaults move at the same speed if medium's have more agility and are a good bit smaller.

But right now the agility differences aren't very pronounced, and medium's are as big or bigger than assaults.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 February 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[Artgathan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

But right now the agility differences aren't very pronounced, and medium's are as big or bigger than assaults.

Actually the agility differences are non-existant. A CN9-A with a stock engine has the same turn speed (45 degrees / second) as a Victor with a stock engine. They have the same yaw speed, and the Centurion only has a 20 degree/second twist speed advantage over the Victor (100 deg/sec vs 80).

[TheSteelRhino]

Medium mechs can definitely be a challenge. Having said that, while I have not taken my cent out in awhile, I am finding my dual ppc BJ-3 and Griffin (ERL and lrm) to be effective. But don't expect to stand in the middle of a battle line or get in there and brawl. Right now the best use of a medium is as a skirmisher staying at range and constantly moving, or working with heavy or assault take something else out.

The problem is not so much that mediums need buffing, but lots of folks simply want more guns and more armour. Some sort of incentive for medium mechs would help. And I am quite hopeful that drop weights will make them a much more viable option since the number of assaults on the field will likely come down. (Of course we could just end up seeing Lights and assaults...but one can hope ).

I would even like to see a game mode, where you accept a mission and certain parameters like the total drop weight (or at least the numbers of certain types of mechs are specified in the frag order or contract).

I think its time to start finding more creative solutions other than just buff this, and nerf that.

[Trauglodyte]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 21 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

The problem is not so much that mediums need buffing, but lots of folks simply want more guns and more armour.

More guns and more armor is all that there is. Armor isn't coming any time soon and it shouldn't. But, the name of the game is killing the other side because capping is lame and the maps are mostly too small to make it worth while. And, speed isn't an option because you'll never go as fast as a Light and added speed is pointless unless you're running 140-170 kph. So, most Medium drivers get frustrated by how easily they're dispatched and are left wondering why it is that they're so big and easy to shoot when they have broken weapons (SRMs/LRMs), not enough weapons, and not enough speed to avoid getting blasted. A mech hiding behind structure is going 0 DPS which puts their team in a bind.

[Voivode]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 February 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

You just discussed 4 different scenarios involving killing people. Killing is all we have. It is our role in this game.

As for 2 and 4...Light hunting...I disagree. You are making a ton of assumptions to say the Victor loses there. My dual AMS Firestarter basically gives Bishop's Shadow Hawk an AC5 and 2 Medium Lasers to kill me with. And I'll leg him before he kills me. I mean you can bend the scenario and say it's a Shadow Hawk with 2 AC 5's and a LL, but then you might as well be in a Victor. But I'm sure you'll change the scenario to fit your point.

As for point 4...it's not the Victor and Shadow Hawk vying for that role. It's a Shadow Hawk and Jenner/Firestarter. And I'd much rather have 150kph and 6 Medium Lasers in my quick flanking lance.

By that measure there is only one role in WoW or Team Fortress. Killing the enemy team is an objective, not a role.

I made a ton of assumptions to say the Victor won the pop tart fight, too. You didn't seem to have a problem with that one.

I like how you bent the scenarios to make a point and then threw a passive aggressive jab about how I would bend the scenarios to make a point. You have a future in politics.

A light lance flanking can have uses, for sure. But would you honestly prefer 24 medium lasers to 4 AC20s and 12 medium lasers?

[TheSteelRhino]

@Trauglodyte
You are thinking one dimensionally, and only about what happens when you click "start". Read my whole post above.

Things you are not considering
1) Drop weights. They are coming. You can only get so many hvy and assault mechs in 720 tons (Avg weight is 60 in case you didn't know, and that is a dragon or a quickdraw...I'd rather take a cent).

2). Community warfare: Teams will be taking contracts etc to assault worlds. Payment for mercs is based off contract. Therefore, the contract could specify the number of each weight class or total tonnage you bring.

3). I put up 500-700 points in a blackjack with ppc's regularly. Scoring just as much as assaults/heavies. Perhaps skill is a factor, and if you have the patience to learn to play the role then you could do the same vs just screaming "Buff this" and "nerf that".

Every time folks start screaming buff this, and PGI intentionally buffs something (PPCs and AC5's anyone) there is a long term effect on the game. Players are ALWAYS going to try and get the biggest advantage. So you see polarization in the player base...insanely fast vs biggest heaviest with most guns, or what is the most effective easy build possible.
They have gotten to a point where CW is in the works and new components of the game are inbound. I would submit rather than someone say..."This is all there is", hold on for a couple of months vs derailing them with yet another buff me/nerf me thread.

Let them continue their forward progress, and see what comes from it.Omnimechs cannot change engine size/type, and a lot of the clan lights only do 97..so the game may actually slow down some.

And if you aren't aware of these things then I would submit that you take advantage of PGI's new openess. They are doing a really good job of communicating so far this year.

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 21 February 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Voivode, on 21 February 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

By that measure there is only one role in WoW or Team Fortress. Killing the enemy team is an objective, not a role.

I made a ton of assumptions to say the Victor won the pop tart fight, too. You didn't seem to have a problem with that one.

I like how you bent the scenarios to make a point and then threw a passive aggressive jab about how I would bend the scenarios to make a point. You have a future in politics.

A light lance flanking can have uses, for sure. But would you honestly prefer 24 medium lasers to 4 AC20s and 12 medium lasers?

WoW? Really? You are comparing the mech classes here to the classes in WoW? REALLY?

Dude, come the hell on.

There are 4 jobs in WoW.

One of them is specifically for killing. DPS.

One of them involves doing damage, but against any real threat, it's not a lot. And their main focus is to take damage. Tanks.

One of them is healing. They heal. They rarely if ever do damage unless it's a very gimmicky battle. Healers.

The last role is Crowd Control, which can be done by a multitude of classes in addition to their other roles.

You CANNOT compare that to what we have in MW:O. You just can't.

The fact that you did makes me vomit in my mouth a little.

And did you ever think that I bent the scenario because that's exactly what you were doing? Jesus.

And as for the Medium Lasers vs. the AC20's and Medium Lasers...I'm not going to be nice when I say that. It's a stupid comparison.

Sure, if it was two sets of mech that were the exact same size and moved the exact same speed, I'd go AC/20's all day.

But the comparison is...do I want small super mobile mech's that go 150kph with 6 medium lasers...or do I want a mech that is the size of an assault, moving 85kph with an AC/20 and 2 medium lasers.

I'll take the small super mobile mech with 6 medium lasers every time if their job is to be a light flanking lance.

[Trauglodyte]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 21 February 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

@Trauglodyte
You are thinking one dimensionally, and only about what happens when you click "start". Read my whole post above.

Things you are not considering
1) Drop weights. They are coming. You can only get so many hvy and assault mechs in 720 tons (Avg weight is 60 in case you didn't know, and that is a dragon or a quickdraw...I'd rather take a cent).

2). Community warfare: Teams will be taking contracts etc to assault worlds. Payment for mercs is based off contract. Therefore, the contract could specify the number of each weight class or total tonnage you bring.

3). I put up 500-700 points in a blackjack with ppc's regularly. Scoring just as much as assaults/heavies. Perhaps skill is a factor, and if you have the patience to learn to play the role then you could do the same vs just screaming "Buff this" and "nerf that".

Every time folks start screaming buff this, and PGI intentionally buffs something (PPCs and AC5's anyone) there is a long term effect on the game. Players are ALWAYS going to try and get the biggest advantage. So you see polarization in the player base...insanely fast vs biggest heaviest with most guns, or what is the most effective easy build possible.

If you step back and look for other mechanics then just maybe we'd get out of this silly cycle of constant rebalancing and tweaking.

I read your post. I read all of the posts cause I don't much find it entertaining to do my job. That being said, let's look at what you said:

• Drop weights - the top guilds already play tournaments where drop weights change from engagement to engagement. Know what happens? They range from 8 Highlander and 4 Jenners to 2 Highlanders, 2 Victors, 2 2 Shawks, and 4 Jenners. The point is, the big groups are going to run the heaviest weight and offset them where needed to game the system. This isn't going to really help Mediums because they're still going to get cut out. If those Victors need to turn into Cataphract 3Ds, they will.
  
• Community Warfare - we can't really speak on that because we don't know what is coming but I have high hopes
  
• Damage ouput - the end game numbers mean nothing and are terrible metrics upon which to base success and viability; I've done almost 600 damage in a Locust with 3 MGs and an ER Lrg Laser but that doesn't make the mech viable or wanted

Until the maps are made big enough to where you can have multiple game modes going on, the name of the game will always be "bring the biggest guns and the most guns so that you can kill the other side faster and better than they can do to you." Mediums are capable but most Mediums have a high number of missile hard points and both LRMs and SRMs are weak. LRMs are too slow, scatter too much, have too many counters and are too heavy to get out of it what you need for a Medium and SRMs require the user to get really really close putting them at risk vs. heavier mechs with more armor and bigger payloads. The Hunchy, Centurion, and Shadowhawk are the only ballistic Mediums that we have and none of them can mount anything majorly viable unless you sacrifice other weapons or speed and both of those options work against the end goal.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 21 February 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

1) Drop weights. They are coming. You can only get so many hvy and assault mechs in 720 tons (Avg weight is 60 in case you didn't know, and that is a dragon or a quickdraw...I'd rather take a cent).

More like, you are going to take all lights and all assaults/heavies. Tonnage limits DO NOT HELP MEDIUMS.

[TheSteelRhino]

Look...I think you miss the point. Mediums need something. But try to come up with something meaningful other than just screaming buff this, and nerf that. Really?

Just screaming they are broken fix it does nothing.

b/c if mediums get "buffed" all of a sudden then light pilots will probably start screaming that THEY need a buff...and assault pilots will get upset that their mech that they spent 10 million cbills or 5-10K MC on is suddenly less effective.

Some of those medium mechs actually work pretty well in good hands.