I was thinking to myself today, What if one of the Clans did end up taking control of Terra in 3052? Sure the other clans would recognise the claim of ILClan, but how are they going to keep control of the whole InnerSphere?
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
3
The Clans And Terra (What If)
Started by Bespoke Cheese Cake, Jan 09 2015 04:53 AM
32 replies to this topic
#1
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- Caladbolg
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Posted 09 January 2015 - 04:53 AM
#2
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- Overlord
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Posted 09 January 2015 - 05:24 AM
Bespoke Cheese Cake, on 09 January 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:
I was thinking to myself today, What if one of the Clans did end up taking control of Terra in 3052? Sure the other clans would recognise the claim of ILClan, but how are they going to keep control of the whole InnerSphere?
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
from memory every [x] amount of days the whole CW map restarts to day 1 and the whole war fights again.
I think it'll be altered depending on our year and the games year.
(2015 = 3050). This way when NEW clans and factions arise we can play for them and there territory as well.
The days X is not decided yet or happened yet.
I assume the game will continue fighting and stuff if this control of terra was taken before [x] days and will provide STRONG buffs to the clan that owns it. (CW will eventually reward people on planets controlled. let's say if the IS got the planet where direwolfs come from, they can use direwolfs, buy them for cheaper ,adn repair cost will be cheaper. ofc this i when all this stuff is added to game)
Terra is very rich in history and has lots of factories. It'll practically provide access to most IS technology if clans hold it. (and atm IS tech does seem very appealing to clans... I would LOVE to run 12 IS medium lasers on my nova)
However it'll be uncertain for now. As CW is barely just starting.
#3
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- The Sureshot
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Posted 09 January 2015 - 05:29 AM
Bespoke Cheese Cake, on 09 January 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:
I was thinking to myself today, What if one of the Clans did end up taking control of Terra in 3052? Sure the other clans would recognise the claim of ILClan, but how are they going to keep control of the whole InnerSphere?
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
I have a detailed brief, that one of my RP characters had put together for saKhan DelVillar at one point, during a campaign.
I will try to get it posted later.
Edited by Metus regem, 09 January 2015 - 05:59 AM.
#4
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- Knight Errant
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Posted 09 January 2015 - 05:57 AM
The major problem the Clans as written in the Lore have is they are a very powerful, highly trained, complexly snobbish military force.
In simple terms they are a small high tech military trying to conquer and hold an enemy area 45 times as vast as themselves and 100 to 200 times more numerous as themselves.
Its been a good 15 or more years since I looked it up, but iirc the Clans in total had a combined population of about 4 to 5 billion people of which less than 2% actually made up the Warrior Caste (part of which was considered to old by age 35 to be useful as anything other than suicide troops)
On the flip side the Inner Sphere has a population in the hundred of billions (if not over a trillion), and is used to fighting with massive peasant armies in a endless grinding slaughterhouse attrition style of war.
In many ways the Lore in Battletech sets up the Clan Invasion as the German invasion into the Soviet Union in WWII. The basic problem the Germans ran into was they could not kill the Russians faster than the Russians could throw peasant armies at the German Army Groups. Eventually Germany could not replace their personnel losses fast enough to keep those Army Groups fighting.
The Clans would run into the same basic problem, their highly selective army training structure produces superior soldiers in the Battletech Lore, it just doesn't produce vary many of them at any given time.
The Lore also shows an insight to that end of the Clan structure in the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Operation Bulldog uncovered a significant stockpile of military equipment on the Jag capital of Huntress, that the Jags never used in their defense. The main reason being they ran out of Warrior Caste to drive it, and they would never have considered arming their non warriors (many of whom likely would have been able to do so if the Robert Thurston books on Clan Jade Falcon apply at all to clan society generically)
My suspicion is, the Clans likely would have gotten to spread out and had a massive guerrilla war on the conquered worlds, and would have continued to face active Houses fighting against them with massive peasant armies.
In short without a massive belt of Liao grade plot armor, no I don't think the Clans would have been able to both conquer the Inner Sphere AND hold it. At best for the Clan in such a scenario the IS and Clan social structures kinda fuse together with the Successor States reemerging, but with Clan Warrior Caste driven militaries and lots of bloodnames mixed among the nobility.
In simple terms they are a small high tech military trying to conquer and hold an enemy area 45 times as vast as themselves and 100 to 200 times more numerous as themselves.
Its been a good 15 or more years since I looked it up, but iirc the Clans in total had a combined population of about 4 to 5 billion people of which less than 2% actually made up the Warrior Caste (part of which was considered to old by age 35 to be useful as anything other than suicide troops)
On the flip side the Inner Sphere has a population in the hundred of billions (if not over a trillion), and is used to fighting with massive peasant armies in a endless grinding slaughterhouse attrition style of war.
In many ways the Lore in Battletech sets up the Clan Invasion as the German invasion into the Soviet Union in WWII. The basic problem the Germans ran into was they could not kill the Russians faster than the Russians could throw peasant armies at the German Army Groups. Eventually Germany could not replace their personnel losses fast enough to keep those Army Groups fighting.
The Clans would run into the same basic problem, their highly selective army training structure produces superior soldiers in the Battletech Lore, it just doesn't produce vary many of them at any given time.
The Lore also shows an insight to that end of the Clan structure in the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Operation Bulldog uncovered a significant stockpile of military equipment on the Jag capital of Huntress, that the Jags never used in their defense. The main reason being they ran out of Warrior Caste to drive it, and they would never have considered arming their non warriors (many of whom likely would have been able to do so if the Robert Thurston books on Clan Jade Falcon apply at all to clan society generically)
My suspicion is, the Clans likely would have gotten to spread out and had a massive guerrilla war on the conquered worlds, and would have continued to face active Houses fighting against them with massive peasant armies.
In short without a massive belt of Liao grade plot armor, no I don't think the Clans would have been able to both conquer the Inner Sphere AND hold it. At best for the Clan in such a scenario the IS and Clan social structures kinda fuse together with the Successor States reemerging, but with Clan Warrior Caste driven militaries and lots of bloodnames mixed among the nobility.
#5
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Posted 09 January 2015 - 08:47 AM
Okay, I managed to find the document:
SaKhan Theresa DelVillar, this memo is being brought to your attention, based on information found in the Dragoon reports on the military readiness of the Inner Sphere. Based on information that is readily available it is the educated opinion of this warrior of Clan Ghost Bear, that we are not in a position to launch a full scale invasion of the Inner Sphere, it is also the opinion of this warrior that the IlKhan was being less than truthful about the state of readiness in the Inner Sphere, as well as the troop strength of the forces found there.
Please see attached appendices A, B and C, as they contain detailed reports on the last known positions, troop numbers as well as troop and equipment qualities at the time of the last Dragoon report.
Looking at the attached information, it is clear that the front line forces for the Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth will not be in a position to combat our forces for several months, if not years based on current jump ship technology, as well as jump ship numbers found in the Inner Sphere. Based on our projected troop and combat movement speeds, the Free Rasalhague Republic will fall inside of two years, as we are likely to encounter stiffer resistance the closer we come to Rasalhague. During this time, there is an extremely strong possibility that the Federated Commonwealth will have had the time to move the best units they possess into direct line with our forces, forcing Clan Ghost Bear to commit stronger forces to combat these units, or commit more troops and equipment against these units, forcing us to noticeably narrow our engagement zone.
Please see attached appendices E and F, as they contained reports based on projected out comes of our practice of Zellbringen against the total warfare that is practiced in the Inner Sphere, as well as projected out comes after conquering a world of the Inner Sphere through Zellbringen.
As our forces have for a few hundred years now practiced a ritualized version of warfare where we try to do battle through the smallest force possible, and the result is we either win or lose the object in question through the result of combat, our forces will be under prepared for combat with Inner Sphere forces, that have during this time, kept in practice with total warfare as practiced by our ancestors of the Star League Defence Force (SLDF). Though our equipment is vastly superior, we do not practice a combined arms approach to warfare, nor do we practice focusing our fire on a target. These are things that are practiced, regularly in the Inner Sphere, and will likely lead to less than desirable outcomes for our forces, once they learn of how to exploit our practice of Zellbrinen.
Based on all information available, we will likely reach terra, yet once we do, it is very unlikely that the Houses of the Inner Sphere will readily accept the rule of the IlClan, and will likely continue to resist our forces , until we reach a point where our forces are simply too small to maintain control over the Inner Sphere. It should also be noted, that there is a very strong possibility that the Houses of the Inner Sphere, once Rasalhague falls could band together to create a new Star League, leaving us in an interesting position, to be fighting against the very thing we are coming to create. Should that happen, it is very likely within 10 years we would see at least one Clan destroyed, as it is only a matter of time before the Inner Sphere locates the home worlds, once that happens, we will not be able to stop them, should the commit a strong enough force to taking them. Thus it is the recommendation of this Star Captian that we should look at the possibility of intergration with one or more Houses of the Inner Sphere, for our survival and future, based on all information I would recommend Rasalhague or the Federated Commonwealth, due to similar cultural ties.
Star Captain Arjak DelVillar
12th Bear Chevaliers
Beta Galaxy
Projected outcome of operation revival
SaKhan Theresa DelVillar, this memo is being brought to your attention, based on information found in the Dragoon reports on the military readiness of the Inner Sphere. Based on information that is readily available it is the educated opinion of this warrior of Clan Ghost Bear, that we are not in a position to launch a full scale invasion of the Inner Sphere, it is also the opinion of this warrior that the IlKhan was being less than truthful about the state of readiness in the Inner Sphere, as well as the troop strength of the forces found there.
Please see attached appendices A, B and C, as they contain detailed reports on the last known positions, troop numbers as well as troop and equipment qualities at the time of the last Dragoon report.
Looking at the attached information, it is clear that the front line forces for the Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth will not be in a position to combat our forces for several months, if not years based on current jump ship technology, as well as jump ship numbers found in the Inner Sphere. Based on our projected troop and combat movement speeds, the Free Rasalhague Republic will fall inside of two years, as we are likely to encounter stiffer resistance the closer we come to Rasalhague. During this time, there is an extremely strong possibility that the Federated Commonwealth will have had the time to move the best units they possess into direct line with our forces, forcing Clan Ghost Bear to commit stronger forces to combat these units, or commit more troops and equipment against these units, forcing us to noticeably narrow our engagement zone.
Please see attached appendices E and F, as they contained reports based on projected out comes of our practice of Zellbringen against the total warfare that is practiced in the Inner Sphere, as well as projected out comes after conquering a world of the Inner Sphere through Zellbringen.
As our forces have for a few hundred years now practiced a ritualized version of warfare where we try to do battle through the smallest force possible, and the result is we either win or lose the object in question through the result of combat, our forces will be under prepared for combat with Inner Sphere forces, that have during this time, kept in practice with total warfare as practiced by our ancestors of the Star League Defence Force (SLDF). Though our equipment is vastly superior, we do not practice a combined arms approach to warfare, nor do we practice focusing our fire on a target. These are things that are practiced, regularly in the Inner Sphere, and will likely lead to less than desirable outcomes for our forces, once they learn of how to exploit our practice of Zellbrinen.
Based on all information available, we will likely reach terra, yet once we do, it is very unlikely that the Houses of the Inner Sphere will readily accept the rule of the IlClan, and will likely continue to resist our forces , until we reach a point where our forces are simply too small to maintain control over the Inner Sphere. It should also be noted, that there is a very strong possibility that the Houses of the Inner Sphere, once Rasalhague falls could band together to create a new Star League, leaving us in an interesting position, to be fighting against the very thing we are coming to create. Should that happen, it is very likely within 10 years we would see at least one Clan destroyed, as it is only a matter of time before the Inner Sphere locates the home worlds, once that happens, we will not be able to stop them, should the commit a strong enough force to taking them. Thus it is the recommendation of this Star Captian that we should look at the possibility of intergration with one or more Houses of the Inner Sphere, for our survival and future, based on all information I would recommend Rasalhague or the Federated Commonwealth, due to similar cultural ties.
Star Captain Arjak DelVillar
12th Bear Chevaliers
Beta Galaxy
Edited by Metus regem, 09 January 2015 - 08:48 AM.
#6
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Posted 12 January 2015 - 01:39 AM
Well assuming we did reach Terra, taking over comstars HPG network would allow the clans some measure of control over the rest of the inner sphere right?
#7
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- Wrath
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Posted 12 January 2015 - 02:28 AM
oh what happens when clans conquer Terra - depends on the writer.
Considering Stackpole - Wolf will capture it and while Victor Davion can stand his cousin the Wolf Khan they become a great family - with Phelan marriage Kathrine.
Of course Sun Tzu - is opposed to the marriage - and a combined Kurita, Davion, Wolf action destroys the Confederation Capella.
After that Kathrine murders Ulric - and Victor declares war on her - and split the inner sphere
at this point - he stops writing - and leave it to the Word of Blake to make a new Dawn
Considering newer authors - the Smoke Jaguars - reach Dieron and Marc Draconis before they went down killing half the army of the DCM.
Falcons are stopped at Skye - because Ryan Steiner uses all means necessary to step them including nuclear weapons.
Wolfs make the mistake to take Hesperus II.... and are slowed down by WWI trench warfare - facign the remains of the Lyran Wall of Steel - that make a stand this days or die.
So finaly Ghost Bears make it to Mars - loosing half of their fleet in the orbits of Mars and Luna. The remaining forces make it planet fall - and the whole earth becomes a battlefield - Ghost Bear forces fight through Carentab, Riga, St. Louis. ... Wraith of Blake ROM - makes terror strikes into the landing zone - head hunting officers with sniper teams. While regular ComGuard forces stall them. Ghost Bear recognize that they can't hold allow - vs 7 ComGuard armys - they call for support from other Clans.
One and a half year after the last Ghost Bear died fighting on Terra - the remaining Clan forces reach Terra. Fortified with contingents of some inner Sphere forces - all the way from the peripherie to terra their fleet is attacked by small contingents of aerospace fighters and drop ships - a war of attrition
Well - duno - what will happen afterwards - but the final batlle would be awesome - but for sure Clans are almost extinct
Considering Stackpole - Wolf will capture it and while Victor Davion can stand his cousin the Wolf Khan they become a great family - with Phelan marriage Kathrine.
Of course Sun Tzu - is opposed to the marriage - and a combined Kurita, Davion, Wolf action destroys the Confederation Capella.
After that Kathrine murders Ulric - and Victor declares war on her - and split the inner sphere
at this point - he stops writing - and leave it to the Word of Blake to make a new Dawn
Considering newer authors - the Smoke Jaguars - reach Dieron and Marc Draconis before they went down killing half the army of the DCM.
Falcons are stopped at Skye - because Ryan Steiner uses all means necessary to step them including nuclear weapons.
Wolfs make the mistake to take Hesperus II.... and are slowed down by WWI trench warfare - facign the remains of the Lyran Wall of Steel - that make a stand this days or die.
So finaly Ghost Bears make it to Mars - loosing half of their fleet in the orbits of Mars and Luna. The remaining forces make it planet fall - and the whole earth becomes a battlefield - Ghost Bear forces fight through Carentab, Riga, St. Louis. ... Wraith of Blake ROM - makes terror strikes into the landing zone - head hunting officers with sniper teams. While regular ComGuard forces stall them. Ghost Bear recognize that they can't hold allow - vs 7 ComGuard armys - they call for support from other Clans.
One and a half year after the last Ghost Bear died fighting on Terra - the remaining Clan forces reach Terra. Fortified with contingents of some inner Sphere forces - all the way from the peripherie to terra their fleet is attacked by small contingents of aerospace fighters and drop ships - a war of attrition
Well - duno - what will happen afterwards - but the final batlle would be awesome - but for sure Clans are almost extinct
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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:08 AM
Bespoke Cheese Cake, on 09 January 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:
I was thinking to myself today, What if one of the Clans did end up taking control of Terra in 3052? Sure the other clans would recognise the claim of ILClan, but how are they going to keep control of the whole InnerSphere?
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
Through force of arms.
At the time of the war, the Clans had a massive advantage technologically. Remember, only a half dozen of them actually invaded, and the Inner Sphere barely beat them back. All the other Clans have their own warships, elementals, fighters, Mechs, ect... And each one is completely self sustaining. The most powerful Clans can solo entire IS states on their own. It took the entire IS combined (and a surprise attack) to annihilate just one Clan.
By the 3060s the IS had largely caught up though, and this was no longer possible. The 15 year truce of Tukkayid was absolutely vital. It gave the IS the breathing room it needed to catch up. The IS never really caught up completely even after many decades beyond that.
#9
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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:11 AM
The Clans in lore are not like the MWO clans. In MWO, Clan tech has to be balanced. In the Lore the Clans are clearly superior. In the tabletop game it was the norm to allow players to field double the tonnage if they were playing IS against Clan opponents.
#11
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:04 AM
Sadistic Savior, on 12 January 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:
The most powerful Clans can solo entire IS states on their own. It took the entire IS combined (and a surprise attack) to annihilate just one Clan.
you are missing some facts:
first it wasn't the entire IS - that attacked the Smoke Jaguars the major part of fighting troops where DCCM and AFFC troops.
not to mention the aide of Nova Cats. Of course the story is heavy biased by the Authors. Look it took the regiments of the Northwind highlanders to annihilate a Galaxy of front tropps - but in another story the Highlanders and several other regiments - got almost destroyed by two patched Galaxys of Smoke Jaguars.
the IS is a wide place the attacker can choose were to strike - and rather than in MWO CW we have travel times. As stated above it would last months ore even a year to move troops from all different places to another. So the Clans had some combat during the periphery action - but for example Clan Wolf - conquered many planets without a shot fired - and the only planet that would have cost them dearly - surrendered.
Pretty sure that the Gunzburg Eagles would have had the fighting power to stop the Dire Wolf and all of their troop carriers.
But same could not be said for Jadefalcons and Smoke Jaguars or Ghost Bears - they had to fight real battles to get their planets.
Important is also the inability of all clan troops to get the right troops on the ground to finish the job - the bidding reduced their efficiency - sure - four Mechs firing on a single tank is an overkill but it reduces the incoming fire.
regarding tech - mixed with better pilots - when you fight with Zell - a binary of Clan troops hardly is able to beat a company of IS - on the other hand with the same binary i was able to kill a 16 IS mechs - ignoring Zell.
A single Clan may fight all the troops of a single house - for sure - the Ghost Bears had 13 Galaxies in 3060. Enough to fight 13 RCTs with minor casualties. For example the DCCM had about 60 regiments at the same time - if they were able to throw them all in the path of the bears - they wouldn't have won so many planets during the 1st Draconis Dominon War.
Again the travel distance and the behaviour of other border party's for the DCCM were more important rather than numbers.
Terra an on the other hand - with fortification and 7 ComGuard armys vs 20 Galaxies of Clan Troops (like on Tukayyid would be a defeat for the Clans - but that wouldn't have happen.
The first attack on Terra wouldn't have been a Clan joint force - it would have been each clan on its own - an non of them had the numbers to do the job. (only with overwhelming force at specific objectives - and a orbital superiority - so that ComStar could not rearange their troops via drop ships.
#12
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:22 AM
Sadistic Savior, on 12 January 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:
The Clans in lore are not like the MWO clans. In MWO, Clan tech has to be balanced. In the Lore the Clans are clearly superior. In the tabletop game it was the norm to allow players to field double the tonnage if they were playing IS against Clan opponents.
In all fairness the tech is the same as here. The difference is that each one of our IS mechs is given Jihad era upgrades, and tech.
Remember the stock IS mechs? THAT is what the clans fought in their uber custom clan mechs. You think a timberwolf is scary right now? Try going against it with non-quirked, non-buffed stock IS mechs. No wonder it only takes one to mow down a lance or two.
#13
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- Caladbolg
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:33 AM
Slapshot, on 12 January 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:
Well assuming we did reach Terra, taking over comstars HPG network would allow the clans some measure of control over the rest of the inner sphere right?
I would agree that the HPG network would be an important part of controlling the InnerSphere. The sarna article on Comstar gives some indication as to how much power a faction could have, if they took control of the HPG network.
#14
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 05:31 AM
IraqiWalker, on 13 January 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:
In all fairness the tech is the same as here. The difference is that each one of our IS mechs is given Jihad era upgrades, and tech.
Remember the stock IS mechs? THAT is what the clans fought in their uber custom clan mechs. You think a timberwolf is scary right now? Try going against it with non-quirked, non-buffed stock IS mechs. No wonder it only takes one to mow down a lance or two.
I would also add, pre Clan Nerfed Timber Wolves... The BV on those things is higher than most versions of the Atlas...
#15
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 05:58 AM
Metus regem, on 13 January 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:
I would also add, pre Clan Nerfed Timber Wolves... The BV on those things is higher than most versions of the Atlas...
and lets not forget the double armor buff we have in MWO. Which means a TBR when everything would be vanilla, could seriously damage a mech with it's range advantage before the other even can start firing back. 2 lrms 20 + 2 cerll are serious damage with true armor values.
atlas for example has a single lrm 20, meaning the tbr would have 2lrm 20, 2cerll and 2cerml able to fire before the atlas can utilise more than its single lrm 20. loads of damage to eat for the atlas.
Edited by Lily from animove, 13 January 2015 - 06:05 AM.
#16
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 08:00 AM
Bespoke Cheese Cake, on 09 January 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:
I was thinking to myself today, What if one of the Clans did end up taking control of Terra in 3052? Sure the other clans would recognise the claim of ILClan, but how are they going to keep control of the whole InnerSphere?
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
If you have any thoughts on this please share below.
They oversee a relocation operation similar to what we Ghost Bears did. Each of the Clans is assigned, or fights for, specific territory in the IS. If they encounter resistance, they smash it.
Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 January 2015 - 11:25 AM.
#17
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 08:01 AM
Lily from animove, on 13 January 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:
and lets not forget the double armor buff we have in MWO. Which means a TBR when everything would be vanilla, could seriously damage a mech with it's range advantage before the other even can start firing back. 2 lrms 20 + 2 cerll are serious damage with true armor values.
atlas for example has a single lrm 20, meaning the tbr would have 2lrm 20, 2cerll and 2cerml able to fire before the atlas can utilise more than its single lrm 20. loads of damage to eat for the atlas.
Honestly, with a Timber Wolf Prime, you wouldn't be dropping both cERLL and cLRM20's at long range, too much heat. Generally what I do with mine, is dance around at long range for a few turns, dropping both cERLL and running at 8 for a total of 26 heat out of 34, in the process softening up a target till it is weakened enough for me to move in and endage with both cERML, cMPL and dual cLRM20's, again keeping to move at 8 and staying under my heat cap.
I know the Atlas has the lower BV, but if I get clipped by that AC 20, any one spot on a Timber Wolf is going to be hurting, I mean it is only the CT (36) and legs (32) that have more than 26 points of armour in those locations, everything else is 25and under....
#18
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Posted 13 January 2015 - 09:14 AM
Tyrnea Smurf, on 09 January 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:
The major problem the Clans as written in the Lore have is they are a very powerful, highly trained, complexly snobbish military force.
In simple terms they are a small high tech military trying to conquer and hold an enemy area 45 times as vast as themselves and 100 to 200 times more numerous as themselves.
Its been a good 15 or more years since I looked it up, but iirc the Clans in total had a combined population of about 4 to 5 billion people of which less than 2% actually made up the Warrior Caste (part of which was considered to old by age 35 to be useful as anything other than suicide troops)
On the flip side the Inner Sphere has a population in the hundred of billions (if not over a trillion), and is used to fighting with massive peasant armies in a endless grinding slaughterhouse attrition style of war.
In many ways the Lore in Battletech sets up the Clan Invasion as the German invasion into the Soviet Union in WWII. The basic problem the Germans ran into was they could not kill the Russians faster than the Russians could throw peasant armies at the German Army Groups. Eventually Germany could not replace their personnel losses fast enough to keep those Army Groups fighting.
The Clans would run into the same basic problem, their highly selective army training structure produces superior soldiers in the Battletech Lore, it just doesn't produce vary many of them at any given time.
The Lore also shows an insight to that end of the Clan structure in the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Operation Bulldog uncovered a significant stockpile of military equipment on the Jag capital of Huntress, that the Jags never used in their defense. The main reason being they ran out of Warrior Caste to drive it, and they would never have considered arming their non warriors (many of whom likely would have been able to do so if the Robert Thurston books on Clan Jade Falcon apply at all to clan society generically)
My suspicion is, the Clans likely would have gotten to spread out and had a massive guerrilla war on the conquered worlds, and would have continued to face active Houses fighting against them with massive peasant armies.
In short without a massive belt of Liao grade plot armor, no I don't think the Clans would have been able to both conquer the Inner Sphere AND hold it. At best for the Clan in such a scenario the IS and Clan social structures kinda fuse together with the Successor States reemerging, but with Clan Warrior Caste driven militaries and lots of bloodnames mixed among the nobility.
In simple terms they are a small high tech military trying to conquer and hold an enemy area 45 times as vast as themselves and 100 to 200 times more numerous as themselves.
Its been a good 15 or more years since I looked it up, but iirc the Clans in total had a combined population of about 4 to 5 billion people of which less than 2% actually made up the Warrior Caste (part of which was considered to old by age 35 to be useful as anything other than suicide troops)
On the flip side the Inner Sphere has a population in the hundred of billions (if not over a trillion), and is used to fighting with massive peasant armies in a endless grinding slaughterhouse attrition style of war.
In many ways the Lore in Battletech sets up the Clan Invasion as the German invasion into the Soviet Union in WWII. The basic problem the Germans ran into was they could not kill the Russians faster than the Russians could throw peasant armies at the German Army Groups. Eventually Germany could not replace their personnel losses fast enough to keep those Army Groups fighting.
The Clans would run into the same basic problem, their highly selective army training structure produces superior soldiers in the Battletech Lore, it just doesn't produce vary many of them at any given time.
The Lore also shows an insight to that end of the Clan structure in the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Operation Bulldog uncovered a significant stockpile of military equipment on the Jag capital of Huntress, that the Jags never used in their defense. The main reason being they ran out of Warrior Caste to drive it, and they would never have considered arming their non warriors (many of whom likely would have been able to do so if the Robert Thurston books on Clan Jade Falcon apply at all to clan society generically)
My suspicion is, the Clans likely would have gotten to spread out and had a massive guerrilla war on the conquered worlds, and would have continued to face active Houses fighting against them with massive peasant armies.
In short without a massive belt of Liao grade plot armor, no I don't think the Clans would have been able to both conquer the Inner Sphere AND hold it. At best for the Clan in such a scenario the IS and Clan social structures kinda fuse together with the Successor States reemerging, but with Clan Warrior Caste driven militaries and lots of bloodnames mixed among the nobility.
I have to disagree with you here. First of all we must understand that Operation Revival was not prosecuted the same way Operation Klondike was. There is only a select number of Clans actually fighting, four to begin with & three more later on. The IS is the home team & the Clans are the away team. By conquering & holding territory, the Clans in effect used the large area to their advantage. A SS is expecting to get this particular mineral from this world, the Clans take the planet & even if they do not use the mineral themselves, the SS no longer has access to it. The same is true for a mech production facility or anything else. The lore also shows that the worlds farthest from the reach of the GH in charge of a SS was left to the mercy of the Clans which meant there was hardly a fight for some & absolutely NO fighting for others. You now have a beachhead. You consolidate your power, which they did & attack in waves, which they did. Everyone believes it was all about attrition & that is incorrect. The Clans were winning, in fact, because of real estate. Apart from losing the resources of a world, the main thing is you lose the planet itself. You cannot even use it as a staging area to launch a counter attack & reclaim what is yours.
Your example of using the Smoke Jaguars to make your claim is flawed in that the Smoke Jaguars were the most aggressive of the Clans & as has been discussed in different threads, their warrior caste had a higher lethality rate than other Clans simply because they used their warriors for EVERYTHING. They hardly traded with other Clans & their touman was thin because they hardly let any freeborns fight which eventually turned into NO freeborns at all & were falling behind politically, technologically & economically. Since they had to fight for everything, more of their warriors fell than other Clans, It was because of this thinning of the touman, no freeborns & high mortality with no troops to replace them quick enough, that the Smoke Jaguars were the ones who initiated the second ToP for warriors. It was this unwillingness to be flexible that was the actual downfall of the Jaguars. The planet commander in charge of Huntress refused to let trueborns from other castes, who would still have had the training & the genes, pilot mechs to defend Huntress. You would think losing your world would be more important than who defends it but that is how the Jags were written. This however does not reflect the rest of the Clans.
Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 January 2015 - 05:35 PM.
#19
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- The Devoted
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Posted 14 January 2015 - 02:37 AM
Metus regem, on 13 January 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:
Honestly, with a Timber Wolf Prime, you wouldn't be dropping both cERLL and cLRM20's at long range, too much heat. Generally what I do with mine, is dance around at long range for a few turns, dropping both cERLL and running at 8 for a total of 26 heat out of 34, in the process softening up a target till it is weakened enough for me to move in and endage with both cERML, cMPL and dual cLRM20's, again keeping to move at 8 and staying under my heat cap.
I know the Atlas has the lower BV, but if I get clipped by that AC 20, any one spot on a Timber Wolf is going to be hurting, I mean it is only the CT (36) and legs (32) that have more than 26 points of armour in those locations, everything else is 25and under....
atlas is big and slow, you could easily fiire your lrms 2x and your cerll and at lests 1x your cerml. thats overal eniugh damage tos eriously cripple the atlas before he takes a shot. yet given you don't even try to move out of his range as well and "let it come" because with stahdard TT values your heat of the alsers would be a lot less as well.
this would be 54 dmg + 80lrms more or less spreaded around. and this is not exceeding heat with the cooling the TBR prime has.
Edited by Lily from animove, 14 January 2015 - 02:38 AM.
#20
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- The Vicious
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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:10 AM
Could we stay on topic please?
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