57 replies to this topic

[lsp]

Lightfoot, on 16 February 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

First off, if you (all) don't want jjet firing of weapons petition PGI to just block the ability. Expect nerd-rage though.

If not, jjet ridge humpers already have a variety of critical weaknesses to block the tactic. LRMs or brawlers for instance.

It's not an over-powered tactic and I don't see why good tactics that players learn to do well must always be nerfed. I have no problems taking down jjet snipers, but you have to analyze the situation, know their number, and not enter their killing field. There are some places on maps which are too protected like the big hilltop in front of the mountains on Alpine, but they can only camp that in Skirmish.

Agree with most of your statement, but alot of people seem to be the type of instead of learning to overcome and adapt, cry and whine till the company gives into their demands.( put in effort to become better and adapt to the ever changing conditions, nahh. Game developers, the world revolves around ME, I don't like it so it has to change because I so say so, WAAAAAAA QQ.) This has been happening since closed beta. It reminds me of supporters of big government, life is too hard, take care of me at the expense of everyone else.

Edited by lsp, 16 February 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Mavairo]

Abivard, on 16 February 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Allow all mechs to carry Jumpjets, JJ problem solved. I prefer this solution over the other of eliminating JJ's all together.

Fix the weapons that are broken, and stop trying to break ALL the weapons so that they are all equally useless.

OP wants this game to be brawler only is the problem, they are looking at what hurts their playstyle then demand that be nerfed. What helps their playstyle they want buffed to OP'ness.

Actually no I don't.
Seriously, you want to try and tell me what I want and don't want?

I snipe, I brawl. The only thing I don't play much of is light mechs. (besides a lolcust because ..it's hilarious)

Jump Sniping is a pretty easy thing to pull off, which if you had a lick of reading comprehension you'd notice I mentioned my Dragonslayer already, and feel it is infact too effective for the low risk involved.

I want there to be actual Trade Offs, and higher risk weaponry to actually pay off. High Risk, should merit high rewards in gameplay mechanics.

Being able to just sit around, pop up, blow someone half to pieces and land back behind cover shouldn't be rewarded nearly as much as it is in this game. The same applies to my AC20 jumping victors.

I didn't like the Gauss change, I felt it was a sledgehammer fix when -at best- a scalpel was needed (and I'm an AC user. always have been)

Try reading comprehension some time.

[Solis Obscuri]

Mavairo, on 15 February 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

First step: bring back SRMs. Those of us that were around back when SRMs weren't so wonky that you could fire a full 12 of them point blank into someone's chest and see Zero Damage dealt, can probably tell you how much more prevalent brawling was.

Second step: PPCs they shouldn't do Pinpoint Damage Maybe 60 percent of their damage should be dealt to one spot on a given mech and the other 40 percent is spread to surrounding pieces. That's one half the single biggest reason why the HGN and Victor have become the monsters that they are.

Third Step: Jump Jets. There are quite a few things that need to be addressed with Jump Jets. Primarily, is the one we can all agree on. You get far far too much Jump for a single Jump Jet. I'd go so far as to argue that what you get from your first Jump Jet is more like what you should get after 3 jump jets have been equipped. This gives you way way too many tons to play with on the bigger mechs, for far too little opportunity cost.

Second in regard to JJs, is the insane agility boost Heavies, and Assaults gain from using them to assist in their turning ability.

Third, is that there should be some kind of deflection on Descent when it comes to firing. Jump Sniping is not difficult in the slightest to do. Even Laser JJ Sniping is fairly easy to pull off.

1) SRMs are pretty good right now - they could be a little better, but we don't need them "buffed" back to the point where they can punch 90 damage into a Centurion's CT at 50m. Too much of a buff and we just wind up with SRM boats and 2xPPC+2xAC/5 and 2xAC/20 being balance problems, and everything else being that much worse by comparison.

2) Large Lasers can often get 60% of their damage on target (unless the target is insanely fast), so why would I want to spend an extra 2 tons, one critical, and 3 points of heat in order to do 0.6 more damage to my target? The problem isn't that a PPC or an autocannon can concentrate damage effectively, it's that a whole lot of autocannons and PPCs can be fired at once and all hit the same point at the same instant as though they were a single projectile, because "convergence" never made it into the game.

3) Jump jets are supposed to boost agility, and the jump jets we have in-game don't give half the reach they should from TT stats (30m/JJ). Biggest issue is that rather than "jumping" they're more like "hover" jets, so they're ideal for jump-sniping, but not actually all that great for clearing obstacles. Jets with a higher impulse, shorter duration, and a greater lateral component of their force vector would be a lot more challenging to snipe with, but handier for clearing buildings and canyon walls.

Making jump jets worse for maneuvering and decreasing their range essentially would make them good for nothing except jump sniping, and the weight penalty for a jump sniper carrying an extra jet or two is on the order of 1-4 tons - easily made up by downgrading an engine by 10-15 rating points and 2-4kph (which doesn't matter an awful lot if you're going to spend most of the match hopping up and down in one spot).

[XX Sulla XX]

Really I do not see it being much of a problem for 98% or matches. Jump snipers are pretty easy to kill unless they are in a good 12 man group.

[Butane9000]

I've found the closer you are when you fire SRMs the better the hit detection. Which basically means getting face first with the enemy. So it's just about playing your cards right and watching the battlefield.

[Koniving]

Jumpjet turning bonus -- modify or remove that.

No lower arm actuator -- lock said arm to the + crosshair or have it operate independent of the "o" crosshair while allowing the opposite arm full range of motion.

Solved.

As another thing to consider, Streaks hit 100% of the time. Lore, however, is that they won't fire unless they can hit. Compromise. Give them something between this which we have now...



....and this from closed beta.

(Seriously this Jenner is going less than 90 kph, while being knocked around like a kid in the playground by bullies, and is still able to dodge CT-directed pinpoint, Streaks inside streaks missiles. As a skill based thing, too!)

Put something in between the two and jump jetting assaults whose weakness would be light mechs won't be so "overpowered."

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not really a fan of splash damage for any weapon ,but you know how lasers avoid being true pinpoint weapons? They deal damage over time while you're pointing them. The same thing could be done for PPCs. Of course, some would say that this would turn PPCs into another blue laser, but I think coupled with the ECM ability they already have ,they are quite distinct - and you can still tweak with the duration to set them apart from normal lasers.

[Mavairo]

In regards to turning PPCs becoming splash ruining things for lights.

Actually it would do quite the opposite. As it stands right now, if I land a hit on say, a Jenner, either on it's back CT, or STs front or rear (far more doable than you think), with 2 PPCs and an AC10, it simply will keel right on over.

Splash damage PPCs in a 6 to 4 ratio, the Jenner likely would survive that strike.

[StalaggtIKE]

I generally agree with your points, especially those concerning SRM and JJ. I wouldn't mind testing your PPC suggestion. However I can't but feel this could potentially make them more powerful. They would now have the chance to hit numerous locations at once, thus a higher chance for crit seeking and the chance to pass damage to the CT in every hit.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 17 February 2014 - 06:22 AM.

[3rdworld]

Mavairo, on 17 February 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

Splash damage PPCs in a 6 to 4 ratio, the Jenner likely would survive that strike.

Just thought I would chime in real quick.

Splash in MWO does not work like this. Splash is 2 different numbers, the Direct damage number, and the splash damage.

The Direct is simple. For Arty it is 40, so if the shell hits you, it does 40 damage. In your example the 6 portion would be the DD.

The Splash portion is different. if you have the splash set to 4 damage, and you hit right next to 2 hitboxes, it can do 8 or more damage. The splash is not limited to only doing X damage, it does X damage at the center, and decreases as distance grows from the point of impact. It could in theory do huge damage if it landed near enough multiple armor sections. (this is why they tend to nerf the splash range often when balancing splash weapons).

They had in the past talked about doing exactly what you are asking for. But it requires them to fundamentally rework splash as it applies damage in MWO.

[Mavairo]

3rdworld, on 17 February 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Just thought I would chime in real quick.

Splash in MWO does not work like this. Splash is 2 different numbers, the Direct damage number, and the splash damage.

The Direct is simple. For Arty it is 40, so if the shell hits you, it does 40 damage. In your example the 6 portion would be the DD.

The Splash portion is different. if you have the splash set to 4 damage, and you hit right next to 2 hitboxes, it can do 8 or more damage. The splash is not limited to only doing X damage, it does X damage at the center, and decreases as distance grows from the point of impact. It could in theory do huge damage if it landed near enough multiple armor sections. (this is why they tend to nerf the splash range often when balancing splash weapons).

They had in the past talked about doing exactly what you are asking for. But it requires them to fundamentally rework splash as it applies damage in MWO.

I am aware of that, and I feel that is something that needs to be done, for the sake of several weapons, not just PPCs mind.
Of course there are quite a few other things that they need to do, that I suspect would require a substantial rework here and there, like our borked heat system which favors Alphas Forever setups, due to the insanely low dissipation rates and very high capacities. But the heat system is another thread.

[Macksheen]

As a new MWO player but old TT player, the fact that one JJ gets you what it does and the returns from the others diminish is offensive to my grognardiness.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing JJ cause more gyro shake on the crosshairs, and making the gyro module near mandatory for that strategy. Module slots are a premium limitation, and would be a good indirect balance. Perhaps also / in addition make ballistics cause a bit more shake after firing in the air - again, improved/reduced/eliminated by the gyro module. This would serve as an indirect buff to lasers / SRMs.

[Andross Deverow]

Guys,

Lets think about the jump sniping for a moment. Piloting a 70-90 ton gun platform that can jump, ok im fine with the fact people can jump and shoot from the apex of the jump. The solution to the high alpha problem is so simple it wouldnt take much at all to implement a fix.

Just for the sake of explaining take a HGN 733C or a Heavy Metal.

733C - 4 Jumpjet hardpoints at 2 ton each. Meta users are using 1 jumpjet to get the same height you get from 4, this is a bit of a problem. This shouldnt be the way it works, they should only get 25% of the maximum height from one jumpjet. If PGI would figure this out it would force the meta players to change the loadout because they would lose 6 tons. Either they would need to strip armor, sacrifice ammo or heatsinks or just not use certain heavy weapons.
The same solution can be applied to all mechs in my honest opinion. Lights all the way up to assaults, the jumpjets need to be worked on and if they are treated the same for all weight classes noone can complain.... Well they will anyways but the solution is simple.

If you want to be able to clear an obstruction to fire an alpha you need to sacrifice something to be able to equip the amount of jump jets needed to do so.

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 17 February 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[3rdworld]

Andross Deverow, on 17 February 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Guys,

Lets think about the jump sniping for a moment. Piloting a 70-90 ton gun platform that can jump, ok im fine with the fact people can jump and shoot from the apex of the jump. The solution to the high alpha problem is so simple it wouldnt take much at all to implement a fix.

Just for the sake of explaining take a HGN 733C or a Heavy Metal.

733C - 4 Jumpjet hardpoints at 1 ton each. Meta users are using 1 jumpjet to get the same height you get from 4, this is a bit of a problem. This shouldnt be the way it works, they should only get 25% of the maximum height from one jumpjet. If PGI would figure this out it would force the meta players to change the loadout because they would lose 3 tons. Either they would need to strip armor, sacrifice ammo or heatsinks or just not use certain heavy weapons.
The same solution can be applied to all mechs in my honest opinion. Lights all the way up to assaults, the jumpjets need to be worked on and if they are treated the same for all weight classes noone can complain.... Well they will anyways but the solution is simple.

If you want to be able to clear an obstruction to fire an alpha you need to sacrifice something to be able to equip the amount of jump jets needed to do so.

Regards

Highlander JJs weigh 2 tons each.

Mavairo, on 17 February 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

I am aware of that, and I feel that is something that needs to be done, for the sake of several weapons, not just PPCs mind.
Of course there are quite a few other things that they need to do, that I suspect would require a substantial rework here and there, like our borked heat system which favors Alphas Forever setups, due to the insanely low dissipation rates and very high capacities. But the heat system is another thread.

I agree. It nerfs PPcs ,and leaves DD as ballistics "shtick". But I just wanted to be clear that adding a non-buff splash to PPCs, is going to be either a very long time taken fix, or something that is going to be consistently back-burnered because of the difficulty.

[Andross Deverow]

3rdworld, on 17 February 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Highlander JJs weigh 2 tons each.



I agree. It nerfs PPcs ,and leaves DD as ballistics "shtick". But I just wanted to be clear that adding a non-buff splash to PPCs, is going to be either a very long time taken fix, or something that is going to be consistently back-burnered because of the difficulty.

I stand corrected post edited to reflect correct tonnage values, thank you for correcting my maths.

Regards

[Mechteric]

Andross Deverow, on 17 February 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

733C - 4 Jumpjet hardpoints at 1 ton each. Meta users are using 1 jumpjet to get the same height you get from 4, this is a bit of a problem. This shouldnt be the way it works, they should only get 25% of the maximum height from one jumpjet.

Incorrect on both accounts.

- They are currently 2 tons each for jump jets on the Highlander
- Each jump jet already gives you 1/Xth of the max jump height. The thing is that 1 jump jet is just enough to get you over obstacles that are just big enough to provide your mech with cover.


I've said it before a few times, jump jets should actually boost your mech faster into the air (and jump jet refuel more slowly). It would mean you have to take much more time to get your bearings and line up your shot because of how violently your mech has thrust into the air, and if you don't mount enough jump jets you just don't have the time to aim and shoot over that obstacle. Mechwarrior Living Legends worked like this and it was great because it meant to properly jump snipe you have to expose yourself in the air for longer periods of time, which means more tonnage spent on jump jets, and more incoming fire before you drop back down to safety.


From: http://mwomercs.com/...93#entry3134893

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 17 February 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

Andross Deverow, on 17 February 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Guys,

Lets think about the jump sniping for a moment. Piloting a 70-90 ton gun platform that can jump, ok im fine with the fact people can jump and shoot from the apex of the jump. The solution to the high alpha problem is so simple it wouldnt take much at all to implement a fix.

Just for the sake of explaining take a HGN 733C or a Heavy Metal.

733C - 4 Jumpjet hardpoints at 2 ton each. Meta users are using 1 jumpjet to get the same height you get from 4, this is a bit of a problem. This shouldnt be the way it works, they should only get 25% of the maximum height from one jumpjet. If PGI would figure this out it would force the meta players to change the loadout because they would lose 6 tons. Either they would need to strip armor, sacrifice ammo or heatsinks or just not use certain heavy weapons.
The same solution can be applied to all mechs in my honest opinion. Lights all the way up to assaults, the jumpjets need to be worked on and if they are treated the same for all weight classes noone can complain.... Well they will anyways but the solution is simple.

If you want to be able to clear an obstruction to fire an alpha you need to sacrifice something to be able to equip the amount of jump jets needed to do so.

Regards

Just to show,

I did correct the weight numbers, my mistake. But I still feel the jumpjets need to be reworked to force changes as a whole.

Regards

[Onlystolen]

Victors and Highlanders PPC AC sniper ARE NOT the problem, the GG CLOSE LORDS are the problem, it doesnt matter what you do to balance the game, They will find the next high alpha Sniper config and abuse the hell out of it, they are that good.

[Andross Deverow]

Onlystolen, on 17 February 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Victors and Highlanders PPC AC sniper ARE NOT the problem, the GG CLOSE LORDS are the problem, it doesnt matter what you do to balance the game, They will find the next high alpha Sniper config and abuse the hell out of it, they are that good.

I think it would help to be honest. Think bout it, what can they abuse if the cheese is removed? I cant really think of anything right off hand. Besides PPC A/C Jump build is a crutch, once it is removed those players may just fall on thier faces.

Rgeards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 17 February 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Andross Deverow, on 17 February 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I think it would help to be honest. Think bout it, what can they abuse if the cheese is removed? I cant really think of anything right off hand. Besides PPC A/C Jump build is a crutch, once it is removed those players may just fall on thier faces.

Rgeards

Nah, most of these players know how to play rather well, they'll just find the next most effective combination. It was once SRMs, after HSR it's been pinpoint frontloaded.

Only the bad poptarts will be affectly, really.