106 replies to this topic

[Jaeger Gonzo]

current heat system is a crap and open insult to battletech ip

[SweetJackal]

Nyden, on 18 February 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

This.


I've understood since closed beta that, at it's root, the problem with heat management in this game has always had something to do with PGI's hate-on for heat neutral builds. As someone who has always tried to run heat neutral mechs (sustained dps versus burst dps), I've been frustrated with the lack of diversity in competitive builds but I've never really understood why they considered heat neutrality a problem, until now.


The pill is a little easier to swallow if you know why. It doesn't taste any better, though. Clan mechs are going to cook without full double heatsinks. They're all going to have to run mid size AC's too. More of the same...

Well, I might just have to eat my own words a bit. They released the Griffin and pretty much said "It was supposed to be released, we didn't, we goofed. Now let us ungoof" to the point that a Staff member linked the original Griffen Concept Art that had the release date printed on it.

So they have admitted that they have been wrong and fixed it. So, hope. Not much but hope all the same.

[Solis Obscuri]

wanderer, on 18 February 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Hahahahaha NO.

"Balance" would imply that the fire rate would be even remotely comparable between ballistic and energy.

Seriously. Go get two Jagers, put two PPC's on one, two AC/10's on the other. I bet with the tonnage you can give them enough ammo to be firing long after the PPC Jager with the "saved" tonnage in heat sinks shuts down repeatedly. Afterwards, we can see who did more damage.

Bet it'll be the AC/10 user by a landslide.

Thanks to high heat, the number of times a big energy weapon fires vs. an AC in a given space of time is considerably different. Especially if, heaven help us you mounted more than 2 of them.

Heck, an Ilya 'Phract is perfect. Strap three PPC's on it and heat sinks to flavor. Then put AC/5's or 10's on it. Who's gonna be able to keep up a constant barrage longer?

Well, the PPC Jager will shut down... after two minutes. And it has a lower RoF. But how many engagements have anyone firing continuously for that many minutes?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4f35b9685022742
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d951755007d554c

Especially with 12-man drops, that kind of combat exposure amounts to a fringe case - not to mention that either unit could easily dish out enough damage to destroy the other in half of a minute.

But one thing I can do with the PPCs saved tonnage over the AC/10s, is install a couple of Large Lasers...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...45b52ed6c3296ad

It might overheat after 2-3 volleys, but it can do almost twice as much damage in one shot as the AC/10 Jager and then run back behind cover at 89kph. And unless both 'mechs are trapped in some fantasy scenario where they're stuck in the open with their feet nailed to the floor, that's a pretty decent advantage.

And even if both are stuck in the open somewhere, there are advantages to that higher alpha. Let's say both 'mechs have some suspicion that the other is running an XL (heavy 'mech running close to 90kph is usually a good tip-off), and target a side torso. AC Jager shoots for 20, energy Jager shoots 36, leaving the AC Jager with 18 side torso armor, and the energy Jager with 24. The AC Jager fires every 2.5s to maintain it's DPS advantage, making twisting away between shots unfeasible, but the energy Jager times its shots once every 4.25 seconds. So the energy Jager twists to take 20 damage to the other torso or arm, before coming back up for shot three. The AC Jager can fire in the 1s Laser discharge duration, and assuming they're both equally good shots, that puts the energy Jager at 4 armor on one side torso and 24 on the other, while the AC Jager is into 18 points of internal damage and a possible engine crit. At this point, the energy Jager might be risking a shutdown on the next volley, but has a guaranteed kill if the pilot keeps up his high level of accuracy. The AC Jager has potential for a crit kill on that volley, too, but it's still a 50/50 shot whether the XL engine or the DHS in the side torso takes that crit...

Sure, that assumes the energy Jager can keep a Large Laser on target without damage spread, but it also assumes the AC Jager can place consecutive shots in the same spot on a target running 89kph using a 950m/s bullet... I'd say one is about as feasible as the other, given calm nerves and properly configured mouse sensitivity.

[Mister Blastman]

Solis Obscuri, on 17 February 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Medium Lasers are fine as they are. So are the autocannons. Making every other weapon system a heavily nerfed 10+ ton version of a 1 ton weapon with no ammo requirement just creates a garbage game with less variety than we have now.

You completely failed to comprehend anything I said. I'm sorry.

Also, Medium Lasers are not fine. They need to be dropped by one point in heat to start.

[Black Arachne]

The Heat System in this game is borked and penalizes stock mech builds that should be capable of holding their own but can't simply because they are out classed by mechs with ballistics. These mechs which can stream continuous fire with no worry about heat or even ammo conservation. And on top of that they fire faster. Energy Weapons are balanced by DHS but in this game they are only half of what they should be and we have ghost heat thrown on top. My Awesome mech that I had grinded for was garbage, unable to use the weapons that it comes stock with. A design built to have enough DHS to handle its role as a fire support mech - reduced to firing one PPC, then another, then another. Where other mechs are firing not only in groups, triple, but also quad fire. It was so blatantly obvious, that I sold my Awesome and got a Cataphract and now I'm averaging around 700 dps a game......and despite that I'd rather be in the Awesome but I can't until its FIXED.

Edited by Black Arachne, 18 February 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Karyu]

lsp, on 17 February 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Being able to barely fire off two at a time is not acceptable. Why even take four in the first place, and forget even using erppcs. Can't have two erppcs, can barely manage one.

Because if the heat cap and dissipation rates were tweaked correctly you would be able to chain fire groups of two for atleast a few salvos without overheating, while a 4 PPC alpha would easily shut you down. If done correctly the overall dps can be maintained or even slightly increased, while the alpha is halved. Reduced big weapon boating, decreases pinpoint damage, increases TTK.

[Koniving]

Karyu, on 18 February 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Because if the heat cap and dissipation rates were tweaked correctly you would be able to chain fire groups of two for atleast a few salvos without overheating, while a 4 PPC alpha would easily shut you down. If done correctly the overall dps can be maintained or even slightly increased, while the alpha is halved. Reduced big weapon boating, decreases pinpoint damage, increases TTK.

Agreed. Though 4 at once would shut you down instantly (and with MWO's current penalties for overheating, do some nasty damage to yourself), but 2, wait a second, 2, wait three seconds (for the first to reach the four second cycle) and 2, then one second and 2. You just churned out 8 PPCs with 2 at a time pinpoint kept reasonably hot.

(Note: At 30 threshold, no unlocks, 2 PPCs fired at once is 66.67% heat. But... With only 10 DHS you're at 0% in 10 seconds. With 20 DHS you're able to churn out 4 and be at 0 in 10 seconds. However, if being ice cold doesn't matter you can easily churn out 8 PPCs fairly well with only 15 DHS. 4 with 10 DHS. While sleeping with 20 DHS.)

10 DHS, 30 threshold, 2 PPCs at once. Goal is most PPCs fired without shutting down.

Spoiler

0 seconds, fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat.
1 second 18 heat
2 seconds 16 heat
3 seconds 14 heat
4 seconds 12 heat
5 seconds 10 heat
6 seconds 8 heat
7 seconds Fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat - 2 heat = 26 heat.
8 seconds 24 heat.
9 seconds 22 heat
10 seconds. 20 heat.

20 heat at the end of 10 seconds. 66.67% heat. Fired 4.

15 DHS. Goal is as many PPCs as can be fired without shutting down.

Spoiler

0 seconds, fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat.
1 second 17 heat
2 seconds 14 heat
3 seconds 11 heat
4 seconds 8 heat Fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat (28)
5 seconds 25 heat
6 seconds 22 heat
7 seconds 19 heat.
8 seconds 16 heat.
9 seconds 13 heat
10 seconds. 10 heat. (Firing 2 PPCs here would shut down for a fraction of a second.)

10 heat. 33.33% threshold. Fired 4 but could've squeezed out 6 for a fraction of a second shutdown.

Honestly if you fire them one at a time you can squeeze them a bit tighter.

20 DHS + 2 PPCs.

Spoiler

0 seconds, fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat.
1 second 16 heat
2 seconds 12 heat
3 seconds 8 heat
4 seconds 4 heat Fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat = 24 heat
5 seconds 20 heat
6 seconds 16 heat
7 seconds 12 heat.
8 seconds 8 heat. Fire 2 PPCs + 20 heat = 28 heat.
9 seconds 24 heat
10 seconds. 20 heat.

66.67% heat (20 points of heat). Fired off 6 with 2 at a time immediately when ready.
Perfectly replicates tabletop results of firing 6 PPCs from a 6 PPC stalker with 20 DHS, if you could fit that (you can't get that many in. Run it with 18 and this second by second simulation with 18 DHS [-3.6 heat per second] and you get identical results between this and tabletop).

Run it on MWO with the current system, and you'll cool MUCH slower for 20 DHS, and 10 DHS will cool much faster. As if you're punished for carrying more heatsinks, because in MWO you really are.

Ultimately though, it does indeed defeat any point in running 4 PPCs. Thus accomplishing the goal of ghost heat without convoluted mechanics and simplifies the math of heatsinks so that even Second Grade students can do it.

Twin AC/20s would function pretty much as they do now (Fire 2 or 3 times and shutdown).
But unlike the current ghost heat system, when 4 UAC/20 boats come, with 30 threshold they would fire once with 24 heat but a single doubletap would shut it down. A simple raise of 1 heat per AC/20 and UAC/20 would achieve shutdown if fired while moving (as it always is).

Ghost Heat requires a punishment of 60+ heat in order to accomplish a very similar result, causing an instant shutdown. The heat generated to achieve this with current AC/20 punishments is 104.64.

Edited by Koniving, 19 February 2014 - 09:16 AM.