Or an AC/5, which will fire all day and not give a flying fig about heat. Or an AC/10. Or an UAC/5, any of which will give you effective DPS that far outlasts anything you could pump out with that ER PPC.
The more nerfed heat sinks became, the more the system skews in favor of ballistic/missile vs. energy, and the higher the base heat of a weapon, the worse that becomes. ER PPC's are the top of the charts there, and PPC's not far behind.
Yeah the fire rate on Autocannons definitely needs to be put inline with the Medium Laser as a baseline benchmark.
Everything should be balanced around the Medium Laser, actually. Yes, this means boating medium lasers will be possible on some mechs. That's how it should be. And they should be deadly.
Until convergence is addressed... They'll still be deadly... but at least they'll be very useful.
And a PPC does 10 damage in a turn now 25 damage a turn. Welcome to MWO, where the developers have kept the base damage sorta and then upped the amount of times they can fire in a 10 second turn. An AC/20 does 20 damage pin point in TT, end of story.
shouldn't your signature have UI2.0 checked off now?
Mcgral18, on 17 February 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:
As do flamers, lasers and MGs. And guess what, they fixed the frontloaded pinpoint issue with those weapons along with SRMS...but not PPCs or ACs. Guess what's causing imbalance...huh. 3x damage and 2x armor doesn't help either.
Except not everyone agrees with there being an imbalance.
Mister Blastman, on 17 February 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:
Firing 2 ERPPCs should make you overheat to borderline where if you fire one more weapon, you shutdown. You should then have to wait a solid turn before you can fire again.
Turn should be based on Medium Laser recycle time. Heatsinks should be adjusted to cool over this period of time.
Don't like waiting? Don't like PPCs so hot? Don't use PPCs. Use other weapons like smaller lasers.
If heat sinks dissipated at those rates and we had a hard shut down cap in the 30'ish range, this conversation wouldn't even be happening.
As it stands right now, heat sinks dissipate 0.1 HPS and Doubles dissipate 0.14 HPS (even worse than TT rates because the 2.0 threshold they add simply broke too many builds) over a 10 second period, what you've suggested would result in 0.25 HPS (heat per second) for singles and (if we had actual doubles) 0.5 HPS. At those rates an ERPPC producing 3.75 HPS we would need either 15 Singles or 8 Doubles which would be perfectly fine in my books. Right now you need 38 singles for one ERPPC or 27 doubles. Medium lasers require 10 heat sinks to be heat neutral.
Rhent already explained how the heat threshold heat sinks add, something new to heat sinks that PGI introduced in MWO allowed for some broken builds to happen. The problem with their system is that because the threshold is so incredibly high, many things are possible that simply shouldn't be.
The balance game of WHACK-A-MOLE has also proven that simply altering heat values isn't going to fix the issue at all, because of the high threshold, and fast rates of fire, a 1 heat change can break one build or make another overpowered in certain situations, all the while keeping SHS completely worthless. Like the quad PPC stalkers, or the 3PPC CTF-3D.
I've said it a number of times, but my biggest fear is that when the Clans arrive, the heat system will still be as broken as it has been the last 2 years. With Clan weapons running a lot hotter, PGI will likely simply throw TT right out the window, their warnings have already suggested something along those lines. If the Clan weapons we get are so unrecognizable from the older MW titles or TT as many here have envisioned, the forums around here will just melt down from the rage it generates.
When the Clans arrive, whether PGI has fixed heat by then will very likely make or break this game. CW just won't matter at that point.
TB Freelancer, on 17 February 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:
If heat sinks dissipated at those rates and we had a hard shut down cap in the 30'ish range, this conversation wouldn't even be happening.
As it stands right now, heat sinks dissipate 0.1 HPS and Doubles dissipate 0.14 HPS (even worse than TT rates because the 2.0 threshold they add simply broke too many builds) over a 10 second period, what you've suggested would result in 0.25 HPS (heat per second) for singles and (if we had actual doubles) 0.5 HPS. At those rates an ERPPC producing 3.75 HPS we would need either 15 Singles or 8 Doubles which would be perfectly fine in my books. Right now you need 38 singles for one ERPPC or 27 doubles. Medium lasers require 10 heat sinks to be heat neutral.
Rhent already explained how the heat threshold heat sinks add, something new to heat sinks that PGI introduced in MWO allowed for some broken builds to happen. The problem with their system is that because the threshold is so incredibly high, many things are possible that simply shouldn't be.
The balance game of WHACK-A-MOLE has also proven that simply altering heat values isn't going to fix the issue at all, because of the high threshold, and fast rates of fire, a 1 heat change can break one build or make another overpowered in certain situations, all the while keeping SHS completely worthless. Like the quad PPC stalkers, or the 3PPC CTF-3D.
I've said it a number of times, but my biggest fear is that when the Clans arrive, the heat system will still be as broken as it has been the last 2 years. With Clan weapons running a lot hotter, PGI will likely simply throw TT right out the window, their warnings have already suggested something along those lines. If the Clan weapons we get are so unrecognizable from the older MW titles or TT as many here have envisioned, the forums around here will just melt down from the rage it generates.
When the Clans arrive, whether PGI has fixed heat by then will very likely make or break this game. CW just won't matter at that point.
Right. The heat cap at the moment is stupid. I don't know what the hell they were thinking when they came up with it.
Just set it to 30, set dissipation around the medium laser fire/recharge rate for the sinks (one medium laser cycle = one turn so a double would dissipate 2 pts heat in that timeframe) and institute Battletech's full table of penalties for heat at whatever level.
The game would be so much better. Not perfect because of convergence issues but it'd be way better than it is now.
We'd still need working SRMs with splash but whatever, it'd be a start.
You seem to know more about ghost heat than the OP, congratulation!
Cooldown for LL is 3,25 sec, you have to wait 0,5 sec to avoid ghost heat. How is there no reason to slot 4 of them in a build focused on LL with enough heatsinks?
4 PPC IS hot, it is meant to be hot and those mechs are hot in battletech. Did I mention hot? It seems you have no clue how it works. It is NOT mechwarrior to fire 4 PPC at once.
Maybe you are the one who doesn't want to play Mechwarrior.
4 LLs are hot with or without ghost heat. Not quite as hot as 4 PPCs, but about as hot as 3 PPCs.
All without ghost heat.
That was always the case, it never changed. Lower the heat capacity, increase the dissipation, and ditch ghost heat. The result is that large alphas are still punished, because your mech overheats on that alpha, while chain-firing allows you to keep up a high rate of fire and a high damage output - but you don't get the full benefits of convergence.
Mustrum "Ah, why do I bother to explain this a thousands time? Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a sign of insanity! I need some dried frog pills." Ridcully
Why:
The current high heat cap and low heat dissipation has set up a system set for abuse. Historically that abuse was the 6 PPC stalker, which worked because the heat cap was so high that they could come out, fire one blast, hide for 4 seconds, come back again and fire another blast and core a mech and be at 99% heat. To fix this, the developers have raised heat across the board on energy based weapons and implemented the hated "Ghost Heat" system, which is almost universally hated.
Consequences:
-Autocannons have become the primary weapon system of the game, even factoring in the large crit space, ammo requirement and tonnage required to run them. A 3 UAC/5 + 3 ML Ilya can core an Atlas 1 on 1 in a higher percentage than they should be able. All things considered equal, a brawler Atlas should destroy a an Ilya boating the build above, but in my own experience, 2 out 3 three, my 70 ton Ilya with an XL will kill a 100 ton atlas with a Std engine. Its not due to my skill, its due to HEAT.
-Gameplay revolves around a flawed heat mechanic where you front load as much damage as you can and then wait for your heat to disspate and then rinse and repeat.
Fix: Low Heat Cap, high dissipation.
The developers can figure out a system that would allow someone to fire 2 ERPPC's with 20 DHS at least 3 times without overheating and would allow 2 PPCs + 2 ML with 20 DHS to fire at least 8 times without overheating. When you overheat, at the bare minimum keep the existing heat penalties if not add more.
Set the Heat Cap to 30. Adding more heat sinks increases the dissipation rate.
Outcome:
The existing builds of the day will not be become obsolete. You would still be able to run a 2 PPC + 2 AC5 build. You would not see 4 or 6 PPC stalkers with this system. You will see people running 4 LL builds and 6 ML builds. Lights won't get nerfed out of running ML's with this system, they can run 6 ML and not hit the 30 pt cap limit. Ghost Heat can be removed from the system, its a bad idea right up their Jar Jar Binks and Mitochlorions bad.
Remove ghost heat = problem solved.
Players would have more options available to them, and laz0rs would be viable again.
I said that alpha strikes are an integral part of the game, not pinpoint damage from alpha strikes. Never build straw men in burning barns...especially when the farmer is a deranged pyromaniac.
How abut building straw barns at Burning Man?
TB Freelancer, on 17 February 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:
Either way, if the heat system isn't addressed, I strongly suspect we're going to see some massive nerd rage when the Clans arrive and Billy's favorite clan mech melts in 5 seconds flat.
In BT you can have 8 PPCs if you want to, problem is you'll never have heat capacity to fire them all same turn. 1 HS gives you 1 heat capacity meaning you can fire a gauss rifle without overheating. 1 DHS is 2 capacity.
PPC ~ 10 HS / 5 DHS
ERPPC ~15 HS / 8 DHS
2 ERPPCs ~ 30 HS / 15 DHS
6 PPCs ~ 60 HS / 30 DHS
You can alpha 6 PPCs but you need 30 DHS to do it ... how many mechs can have 30 DHS or 60 HS?
In BT you don't dissipate heat, it just isn't generated as long as your heat capacity is higer or equal to heat that weapons you fire during the turn produce. If you exceed capacity you have extra heat next turn that will add to the amount generated by weapons and needs to be negated same way. This excessive heat however will slow you down and have a decent chance to blow you up etc.
Instead of doing in the proper (aka naturally balanced) way PGI went for fancy real-time-dissipation-hissing-sound-red-hot-bar effects. They created 6-PPC Stalkers themselves only to kill them later with even more dumbass arbitrary ghost heat that has nothing to do with REAL mechwarrior / BT game.
Same can be said about weapons. Recycle times came out of nowhere. It might be a surprise but proper recycle times for ALL weapons should be exact same.
The Table Top AC/20 does 20 damage a shot, end of story.
Tabletop, not lore. Tabletop has been refined over 20 years for an expedited, simplified experience (otherwise a "campaign" would take months instead of hours or days. Imagine keeping a table set for months.)
A turn in tabletop is also 10 seconds of time compressed. It is a summary and nothing more. Tabletop would become over 300 pages more complicated if weapon variants were taken into account, for example there are 44 Unique Standard Medium Laser Variants. That's out of a list of over 60 ML. Not counting any type of ER or Clan versions.
There are more than 14 variants of Gauss Rifle. At least 30 brand names of engines each with lore-rooted traits that don't make it into tabletop.
"An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist. Among the earliest tank/BattleMech scale weaponry produced, autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage versus armor.
The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes:
Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the shotgun-like LBX, quick-firing Ultra and the gatling-type Rotary. Light-weight variants and capital ship scale models also exist. The experimental Hypervelocity Autocannon has also entered limited production." Tech Manual Page 207, Tactical Operations, Experimental Readout: Mercs Page 8.
"Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output."
Technical Readout: 3025
Technical Readout: 3025 Revised
Technical Readout: 3050
BattleTech Master Rules
Field Manual: Federated Suns
Total Warfare
TechManual
Tabletop doesn't take into account variants.
Meanwhile.
"The Heavy Rifle is the largest Rifle in the family. The precursor to the modern Autocannon, the Rifle was based on the main guns used by tanks on pre-spaceflight Terra. The Heavy Rifle used heavier rounds and larger propellant loads to fire its shells. The Rifle was phased out of service with most major powers because it lacked stopping power against most battlefield units. Though it has excellent range and (unlike the Light Rifle) the Heavy Rifle can actually damage a BattleMech, its weight and ammunition capacity are no match for standard autocannon. Another drawback is the Heavy Rifle's inability to use the special munitions available to autocannon.
There are reports of some Periphery powers introducing units equipped with Rifles, but these reports were unconfirmed until the introduction of theArbiter."
↑ Tactical Operations, p. 410
↑ Tactical Operations, p. 382
↑ Tactical Operations, p. 337. "All rifles subtract 3 from their damage points when attacking any battlefield unit except conventional infantry, battle armor, 'Mechs with commercial armor, and support vehicles with a BAR less than 8. This can mean that the rifle inflicts no damage."
↑ Technical Readout: Prototypes, p. 100
↑ Experimental Technical Readout: Corporations, p. 8
↑ Era Digest: Age of War, p. 24
Tabletop is basically simplified for the simple minded.
Now, in any way, shape or form, do you fire once every 10 seconds? Nobody does, not even a battletech mechwarrior. Missiles do, sure. They take forever to reload and are huge. PPCs and Gauss? Supposedly. The PPCs mainly due to the heat. The Gauss because of a charge up (yes, lore has had one for them long before MWO did). Autocannons; these things span for roughly around 5 seconds and spend the next 5 reloading or some close approximation to that. The original creators have never, ever depicted autocannons as single shot weapons. That's what Rifles were. And rifles are obsolete.
Correct or closer to correct depictions of autocannons can be found here.
Mister Blastman, on 17 February 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:
Yeah the fire rate on Autocannons definitely needs to be put inline with the Medium Laser as a baseline benchmark.
Everything should be balanced around the Medium Laser, actually. Yes, this means boating medium lasers will be possible on some mechs. That's how it should be. And they should be deadly.
Until convergence is addressed... They'll still be deadly... but at least they'll be very useful.
Medium Lasers are fine as they are. So are the autocannons. Making every other weapon system a heavily nerfed 10+ ton version of a 1 ton weapon with no ammo requirement just creates a garbage game with less variety than we have now.
Oh look, another player who does not know the reasons behind ghost heat.
Nevertheless, your suggestion is awful and outdated and you should feel ashamed for this thread.
The reasons behind Ghost Heat are a lack of making a proper heat system in the first place, lower heat cap is precisly what this game has needed. SHS are usless under the awful heat system currently employed and PGI should feel ashamed for Ghost Heat.
PhoenixFire55, on 17 February 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:
Heat system was fubar from the start.
In BT you can have 8 PPCs if you want to, problem is you'll never have heat capacity to fire them all same turn. 1 HS gives you 1 heat capacity meaning you can fire a gauss rifle without overheating. 1 DHS is 2 capacity.
PPC ~ 10 HS / 5 DHS
ERPPC ~15 HS / 8 DHS
2 ERPPCs ~ 30 HS / 15 DHS
6 PPCs ~ 60 HS / 30 DHS
You can alpha 6 PPCs but you need 30 DHS to do it ... how many mechs can have 30 DHS or 60 HS?
In BT you don't dissipate heat, it just isn't generated as long as your heat capacity is higer or equal to heat that weapons you fire during the turn produce. If you exceed capacity you have extra heat next turn that will add to the amount generated by weapons and needs to be negated same way. This excessive heat however will slow you down and have a decent chance to blow you up etc.
Instead of doing in the proper (aka naturally balanced) way PGI went for fancy real-time-dissipation-hissing-sound-red-hot-bar effects. They created 6-PPC Stalkers themselves only to kill them later with even more dumbass arbitrary ghost heat that has nothing to do with REAL mechwarrior / BT game.
Same can be said about weapons. Recycle times came out of nowhere. It might be a surprise but proper recycle times for ALL weapons should be exact same.
Learn from BT, BT is balanced.
I don't think you understand how heat sinks work in Battletech. They aren't magical pocket dimensions that make heat not exist, they're heat pumps that remove a set amount of heat from a 'mech each turn. Any heat which isn't removed begins to overheat the 'mech - that excess heat will be removed in the next turn unless you continue to push your luck by overheating further, in which case your mech's performance begins to degrade, until it finally shuts down to avoid catastrophic damage.
MWO actually replicates TT heat sinks quite well, except that weapon cycle times are faster than one shot per 10 seconds - though they are pretty close to the optional Solaris VII dueling ruleset which broke turns down into smaller time increments. That creates more ways to overheat, but it also gives some of the low-damage weapons the capability to be competitive in damage over time.
You can also theoretically carry 8 PPCs in MWO, as long as you don't fire them all. It's just pointless to carry a bunch of weapons you can't fire, same as with TT.
The reasons behind Ghost Heat are a lack of making a proper heat system in the first place, lower heat cap is precisly what this game has needed. SHS are usless under the awful heat system currently employed and PGI should feel ashamed for Ghost Heat.
Indeed. For comparisons. Battletech 1989 PC game, remake found here
Threshold 30.
First 32 multiplayer Battletech simulator, featured in this 1992 discovery channel video.
Threshold 30. Firing 2 large lasers and 3 medium lasers could shut you down (8 + 8 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 25 heat) while moving (clearly showing that the engine also had heat).
Mechwarrior 2. Original PC version, 30 heat. But weapons had reduced heat values and reduced damage.
Mechwarrior 2: Expansions (Mercs, Ghost Bear, Titanium Edition and PSX version). Threshold changed to 40 to create a more Arcade-like experience for the casual gamer. Damage increased slightly.
Mechwarrior 3: 30 threshold.
Mechwarrior 4: In the hands of Microsoft, MW4 attempted to rebalance the game. The first thing they did was increase thresholds to 60. ...For years after MW4, Mechwarrior was without a new game. Having realized their blunder, they released the Arcade-like, Stock-locked MechAssault; and then killed it entirely with MechAssault 2. We know the rest.
Mechwarrior Online: Current maximum threshold on a normal map while still using an ER PPC is 88.56. 88.56. That's 8 PPCs fired at once + 2 ML and you still can't shut down! O_O! STILL CANT SHUT DOWN before ghost heat.
This in a game series where "firing more than two weapons at once without waiting a second or two between shots is a last ditch effort made by desperate pilots with a death wish."
More multi-shot autocannons throughout mechwarrior history. Lasers were the instant-fire weapons, and the heat kept them under control.
Solis Obscuri, on 18 February 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:
I don't think you understand how heat sinks work in Battletech. They aren't magical pocket dimensions that make heat not exist, they're heat pumps that remove a set amount of heat from a 'mech each turn. Any heat which isn't removed begins to overheat the 'mech - that excess heat will be removed in the next turn unless you continue to push your luck by overheating further, in which case your mech's performance begins to degrade, until it finally shuts down to avoid catastrophic damage.
MWO actually replicates TT heat sinks quite well, except that weapon cycle times are faster than one shot per 10 seconds - though they are pretty close to the optional Solaris VII dueling ruleset which broke turns down into smaller time increments. That creates more ways to overheat, but it also gives some of the low-damage weapons the capability to be competitive in damage over time.
You can also theoretically carry 8 PPCs in MWO, as long as you don't fire them all. It's just pointless to carry a bunch of weapons you can't fire, same as with TT.
That would be one interpretation of tabletop, yes.
Take a peek at this, however. It breaks down the ten seconds of a turn for firing.
Koniving, on 04 August 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:
In David's example of heat neutrality he used an Awesome 8Q with 3 PPCs at 10 heat each, and 30 SHS.
In real time 8Q fires 3 PPCs, shuts down. Starts back up at zero heat in the end of 10 seconds.
Or he fires one at a time or two then one. Pinpoint is defined as 2 or more fired at the same time to hit the same spot.
Let's break that down in every variation we can.
First tabletop direct translations with 1 at a time, 2 then 1, and then all 3 at once.
Spoiler
If he fires 2, then 1.
Spoiler
Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 27 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.
Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. 1 instance of pinpoint damage for 20 damage.
If he fires 1 at a time.
Spoiler
Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 1 PPCs, 10 heat.
At 1 seconds, 7 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 24 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.
Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. No pinpoint damage.
If the same build fired 3 at once, he'd shut down and be at 0 heat at the end of 10 seconds.
Now tabletop capacity and cooling, but with MWO's firing rate, fired as fast as possible to avoid shutdown.
Spoiler
Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat. 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 28 heat.
At 5 seconds, 25 heat.
At 6 seconds, 22 heat.
At 7 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat.
At 9 seconds, 23 heat.
At 10 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 30 heat = shutdown.
Player has shut down at exactly 30 heat and managed 6 PPCs for 60 damage in 10 seconds. Only 2 were pinpoint on the same spot for 20 damage.
Tabletop, MWO's firing rate + MWO's heat.
Spoiler
Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19 heat.
At 3 seconds, 16 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13 heat. Fires 2 PPCs + 16 heat = 29 heat. (Heat level critical!)
At 5 seconds, 26 heat.
At 6 seconds, 23 heat.
At 7 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 28 heat.
At 8 seconds, 25 heat.
At 9 seconds, 22 heat.
At 10 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 29 heat.
Player is at 29 heat, did not shut down, and managed 7 PPCs for 70 damage in 10 seconds. 3 were pinpoint (30 damage), and then 2 more were pinpoint (20 damage).
Versus MWO's heat capacity system, with 10 heat per PPC, and then with 8 heat per PPC.
Spoiler
MWO's system. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity. Using tabletop's 10 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),
Spoiler
Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 38.
At 5 seconds, 35 heat.
At 6 seconds, 32 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 56.
At 9 seconds, 53 heat.
At 10 seconds, 50 heat.
50 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets.
MWO's current unchanged system without heat penalties. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity. Using MWO's current 8 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),
Spoiler
Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15 heat.
At 4 seconds, 12 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 36.
At 5 seconds, 33 heat.
At 6 seconds, 30 heat.
At 7 seconds, 27 heat.
At 8 seconds, 24 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 48.
At 9 seconds, 45 heat.
At 10 seconds, 42 heat.
42 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with MWO's heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets
Except for MWO's capacity system, all of the above same can be done with 15 DHS.
My estimation is that the damage dealt would weaken slightly with MWO's DHS compared to MWO's SHS, but it'd still be superior to the systems listed before it.
This is MWO's system with DHS, once with MWO PPC heat (8) and tabletop PPC heat (10).
Spoiler
Let's find out.
MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.
Spoiler
Capacity: 57.
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 37.2 heat.
At 5 seconds, 34.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 31.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 50.4 heat.
At 9 seconds, 47.7 heat.
At 10 seconds, 45 heat.
Player is at 45 heat and managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.
MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.
Spoiler
Capacity: 57,
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 19.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 49.2.
At 5 seconds, 46.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 43.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 41.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 38.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 68.4 Shutdown..
Shuts down at 68.4 in 8 seconds, possibly dies as a result.. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets
We know PGI isn't interested in changing the system. That would make it too close to a thinking person's shooter and less appetizing for the casual Hawken player.
So how it would be if all mechs had 1.4 capacity rise, 1.4 cooling across the board for DHS as a compromise, so that mediums and lights don't get screwed with MWO's system?
Spoiler
Let's find out.
8 heat per PPC. 1.4 for all DHS.
Spoiler
MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 1.4 each = 21
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.
Spoiler
Capacity: 51.
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 17.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 15.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 39.6 heat.
At 5 seconds, 37.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 35.4 heat.
At 7 seconds, 33.3 heat.
At 8 seconds, 31.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 55.2 heat.
Player is at 55.2 heat and shutdown in 8 seconds, managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.
MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, All 1.4 = 21.
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, two times in 4 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.
Spoiler
Capacity: 51,
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 25.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 23.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 21.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 51.6. Shutdown.
Shuts down at 51.6 in 4 seconds.. It could easily start right back up. Fired 6 PPCs and dealt 60 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 2 targets
Compare what I would like (30 capacity, 45 self destruct, 2.0 cooling per 10 seconds per DHS which is 0.2 cooling per second per DHS, with what we have now (variable capacity, 2.0 cooling per engine heatsink, 2.0 capacity increase per engine heatsink, 1.4 cooling per chassis heatsink, 1.4 capacity increase per chassis heatsink). Remember I didn't even take pilot unlocks into account, or you'd spam even more with MWO's system.
We wouldn't even need such hot maps with an appropriate system, but that's just me. But I digress, PGI seems to believe more alpha strikes is considered far more balanced, than wimpy heat neutrality builds. That whole thing above me is a tabletop heat neutral build. With the ability to fire PPCs at 4 second intervals, even with avoiding alpha strikes and spacing them out that heat neutrality is impossible.
Where's the problem, PGI?
Note at the time this was written, MWO had 8 heat for PPCs and 10 for ER PPCs.
Solis Obscuri, on 18 February 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:
I don't think you understand how heat sinks work in Battletech. They aren't magical pocket dimensions that make heat not exist, they're heat pumps that remove a set amount of heat from a 'mech each turn. Any heat which isn't removed begins to overheat the 'mech - that excess heat will be removed in the next turn unless you continue to push your luck by overheating further, in which case your mech's performance begins to degrade, until it finally shuts down to avoid catastrophic damage.
This is exactly what I said. End of each turn, if you have capacity, you have no heat. As good as 'magical' in this case.
Solis Obscuri, on 18 February 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:
MWO actually replicates TT heat sinks quite well, except that weapon cycle times are faster than one shot per 10 seconds - though they are pretty close to the optional Solaris VII dueling ruleset which broke turns down into smaller time increments. That creates more ways to overheat, but it also gives some of the low-damage weapons the capability to be competitive in damage over time.
No it does not. MWO mechs has a set heat capacity which has nothing to do with anything, while BT mech heat capacity is directly depending on the number of HS in a mech. Also, why people think that a medium laser should fire every 3 seconds while an AC2 fires every 0.5 seconds is beyond me.
Solis Obscuri, on 18 February 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:
You can also theoretically carry 8 PPCs in MWO, as long as you don't fire them all. It's just pointless to carry a bunch of weapons you can't fire, same as with TT.
Not same at all. Forget PPCs, look at MLs. You can easily carry 8 MLs in both TT and MWO games. You can pretty much easily alpha all 8 in both. Problem is in TT all 8 will hit a randomly chosen location. Chance that all 8 hit same location is close to zero, while in MWO they all hit same location always. THIS is the key problem for MWO and as long as its here you'll never have a fun and balanced game.
Players will always find the most effective way to kill an enemy mech. Pinpoint damage is the most effective way, so they will go for it. This is a fatal flaw in core gameplay mechanics. Discussing balance or heat issues is moot as long as this elephant is in the room
Before you ever complain about the Heat System, you need to understand MWO's design compared to BT's Design.
BT's Design is to have Heat be a form of temporary damage with Heatsinks reducing that damage. Get your Heat too high and bad things happen. As such BT designed itself so that Heat Neutral Builds worked and played differently than Mechs that ran Hot. Heat Neutral had less Per Round firepower than Hot Mechs but Heat Neutral could fire every round while Hot Mechs would have to use skirmish tactics to move away from fire lines to cool off (parking yourself in the open and doing nothing to get your heat down is eating a free salvo)
MWO's design for Heat from the earliest points that PGI was willing to talk about it has been that Heat Neutral Builds are an exploit of the system, not intended and a threat to overall game balance. As such the system has been designed to force players to build as if they were making a BT's Heat Neutral Mech and play as if they were in a BT Hot Mech. This is no more obvious than when Stock Mechs were trading weapons for Heatsinks in the CB or how now every mech requires Double Heat Sinks.
As far as systems go, the current heat system is doing exactly what it is designed to do. We won't see a rework of the Heat System as for that to happen PGI would have to admit the current heat system actually dramatically restricts build choices and robs the game of more depth. But PGI won't admit they were wrong, ever.
They won't do it for Double Heat Sinks (Closest we have gotten was that "Right now Double heat sinks are a tax on mechs" from a NGNG, their staff has still defended SHS being a better option in some cases to which I have had to Math Hammer out of existence) and they won't do so for 3rd Person View. They will take steps to further integrate Ghost Heat into the game and make it a more critical part of balance, causing far more collateral damage than they could imagine.
So lets see what sits in today's patch. I am finding it harder and harder to actually care at this point and if the game gets ground down into the dirt then there will be something else for me to play.
LocationStomping around in a giant robot, of course.
Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:59 AM
Quote
Except not everyone agrees with there being an imbalance.
Sandpit, what part of simple math is too hard to understand with this?
I can strap a pair of AC/10's on something and hold down the triggers with, say 4 tons of ammo each. I won't stop firing until I run out of ammo, nor will I overheat in the process.
I strap a pair of PPC's on something and I not only can't fit that tonnage in heat sinks in most cases (18 extra heat sinks, namely), it means I can't cool the things down because there's no way to strap those things on in the first place. Heck, I can mount triple AC/2's and ammo and get better damage than I can with PPC's...because I can even cool THOSE more efficiently than multiple PPCs. Never mind ER PPCs. Two. ER. PPCs.
Heat sinks are "ammo" for energy weapons. PGI's 1.4 formula is about the same as if suddenly, you not only reverted all ammo counts to TT, you then cut them by 30% on top of that. It makes the effective combat lifespan of energy weapons- especially the "ammo hog" big guns - drastically lower than they should be.
Add in ghost heat and you reach that magical realm created by wizards in yellow. Dare you enter it? It stinks.
It gets really boring to see these threads over and over again.
What happened? OP probably got wasted by Meta-humpers (PPC/AC pop tarts), got frustrated, and decided to figure out a way to take their toys away and make them "play fair".
I get wasted by Meta-humpers too when I'm not careful. Enhance your situational awareness and battle tactics;
1) use cover
2) get a feel for where your enemy is or may be comming from (with the limited number of maps you know most of the routes by heart after a couple of games)
3) get seismic and see enemy movements when waiting behind cover
4) don't peek back and forth over a ridge when the enemy is waiting in a group to blow your face off
5) if you are getting sniped or pop-tarted then REPOSITON to a better position
6) use the terrain to your advantage and against your enemy
7) Any weapon/technique they can use you can use as well against them
8) Don't fight like a noob; e.g. run headlessly into typical ambush spots, etc.
9) Practice hitting your targets in the training grounds if need be
10) Stay the heck away from skermish if you dont like the meta
Melting a pop-tarters faces is not that hard if you do it right. First, use your situational awareness as above. Then, with your best estimate of where the enemy is you shoot them on their way up and duck under cover before they can get an optimal shot. Most poptart-landers need to raise most of their torso over obsticles before firing. When you see that head, shoot, and duck for cover, torso twist, or both.
Right now we have the tools available to us (mech / weapons). Their abilities and limits are set by others over which we have little influence (IGP/PGI). Pin point damage is always going to be the preferred tool for those who can use it and those who can, currently are. Those who can't or don't want to have to find an alternative method with what they can or want to use and make the best possible use of it. Just because the "meta" is what it is now does not mean that it wont appear in another form under any other system given to us.
Personally I like the AC5 in pairs with some MLs. I like to take careful shots at range and burn off some enemy armor when close in with my lasers. I do ok with my ACs because I take time to aim and have practiced. I do ok with my MLs because I understand their limits and use them to their best advantage. Lasers can do things ACs can't like walking damage, and spraying to hit lagging lights (spiders). With ACs/PPCs it is either hit or miss.
Honestly, if you are good enough to hit with AC/PPC you will be good enough to hold your laser on target longer than your opponent and do more damage. What will be the whine then?
Being sprayed by chain fired LLs is just as annoying as getting trolled with chain fired AC2s or spammed by LRM 5s. It's all part of the game though.
I see the complaints about the heat system and boating though ghost heat has done some nice things to limit it, but let me ask; what is your vision of the "perfect game" that your "new and improved" heat system is going to bring about? Only firing 1 or 2 weapons every 10 seconds with tons of time in between to eat a sandwich while your mech cools down? "Varied loadouts" with 5 different weapons keyed to 5 different firing buttons? Just immagine the OP heat system is installed; all of a sudden anything running 6+ MLs is the metta and that is the only thing you see on the field. Will it save you from being killed by players with better tactics/skills? No it will not and it never will.
So, spend less time trying to complain to the GM to make the rules work more to your advantage and more time finding your role and niche with your personal loadout and style within the existing system.
LocationOn your six, chipping away at your rear armour.
Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:01 AM
Bhael Fire, on 17 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:
Alpha strikes are an integral part of Mechwarrior/BT.
Alpha strikes aren't even a thing in BattleTech, so it can't be "an integral part" of it.
AFAIK, "alpha strikes" were first introduced in the much-maligned Solaris VII rule set* in 1991, as Target Interlock Circuits (TICs), which were basically our weapon groups. You could, in theory, assign all your weapons to one TIC and have them fire at once on the same target. You'd still roll for individual hits though, so no pin-point alpha striking, and it still took a full turn for them all to fire.
*guess which rule set MWO is most akin to, Solaris VII or the regular TT rules? Although they did forget that heat sinks should also operate once per turn...
4
wanderer, on 17 February 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:
