67 replies to this topic

[Vanguard319]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 12:44 AM, said:

You haven't fixed this bug.

It is a bug.

Please make sure and fix this overly borked weapon.

If the weapon is actually CHARGED, ok, it should explode.

If the weapon IS NOT charged, because there's no ammo to initiate the charging sequence, IT SHOULD NOT BLOW UP.

Gauss Rifles explode when they take a critical hit, this has always been a rule going back to Table top.

[dangerzone]

I read this whole topic and all I can think is:


That is all I'm seeing here right now. Rather than completely say everyone but you is wrong, maybe you should work on presenting information to PGI via support@mwomercs.com and say something on russ's or bryan's twitter and do that? Because I can tell you right now. They are NOT going to take this topic seriously. Just saying.

[Dimento Graven]

Vanguard319, on 18 February 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Gauss Rifles explode when they take a critical hit, this has always been a rule going back to Table top.

Ok, please show me the TT rule set for a .75 second charge duration, and .25 second firing window, and we can discuss how TT should in anyway continue to apply in this argument.

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Point of clarification: When hit the GR has a 90% chance of explosion. "low probability" it ain't.

Yes, that's not the point. I was talking about EVERY OTHER AMMO EXPLOSION THAT IS INFINITELY MORE DETRIMENTAL THAN THE GAUSS RIFLE.

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1. That's like saying when ANY OTHER ammo based weapon has an empty ammunition slot destroyed there should be a reduced chance/reduced level of explosion. If that were the case the bitching on these forums would be epic.

That's not what I said, and that's not what I meant. My point was that ammo explosions for most of other ammo types (not Gauss) makes you pretty much die outright. I'd just stop trying to suggest a different route for that, since it seems to boggle down the discussion.

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2. Every other weapon becomes instantly 100% immune to explosions when its ammo is depleted. So... balance...

No, what I'm saying was to rework ammo explosions across the board, so while you have have lost ALL your weapons that consume ammo, ammo explosions (whether you have the weapon or not anymore) won't make you instantly explode. It's one thing about losing your ammo based weapons, it's another thing to keep all the ticking time bomb ammo to explode because you can't consume/remove/deplete that ammo storage. It's simply easier to reduce the explosion damage regardless or not whether you have the weapons to use said ammo.

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Lessee, you want penalties, here you go:

Let's just give the top 3, not including any potential for explosion here:
1. Lowest damage per ton in the game.

I don't care anymore. In the world of PPCs, Gauss is still being used on better jump sniping players.

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2. 2nd slowest recharge in the game (I think the LRM 20 is still slower).

Don't care, something has to get that status whether you like it or not. It simply happens to be the weapon that requires the most (well, technically, the AC20 requires a lot more)

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3. Charge mechanic.

Don't care. I got used to it, but I don't use it as much because of its existence.

There, I've applied your logic to your own type of argument. Be more reasonable, then perhaps we can have a discussion.

[Dimento Graven]

dangerzone, on 18 February 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I read this whole topic and all I can think is:


That is all I'm seeing here right now. Rather than completely say everyone but you is wrong, maybe you should work on presenting information to PGI via support@mwomercs.com and say something on russ's or bryan's twitter and do that? Because I can tell you right now. They are NOT going to take this topic seriously. Just saying.

I get what you're saying on that.

But seriously, F Twitter, F it right in its beak.

Limiting communications to 180 character 'burps' is idiotic.

If they are going to use Twitter as their primary means of communicating with the users, they should just eliminate the f'ing forums altogether. They could eliminate moderator positions and higher more developers, preferably some with UI experience...

[Vanguard319]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Ok, please show me the TT rule set for a .75 second charge duration, and .25 second firing window, and we can discuss how TT should in anyway continue to apply in this argument.

The charge is irrelevant, Gauss rifles explode when when they take a critical,and nobody's going to change it because you despise that mechanic.Your options are to accept this fact, and build your mech accordingly, or don't use gauss rifles.

[dangerzone]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

I get what you're saying on that.

But seriously, F Twitter, F it right in its beak.

Limiting communications to 180 character 'burps' is idiotic.

If they are going to use Twitter as their primary means of communicating with the users, they should just eliminate the f'ing forums altogether. They could eliminate moderator positions and higher more developers, preferably some with UI experience...

I hear you. I made a twitter just to follow russ, bryan and paul. I check it twice a day and that's it.

Still, I think most of the moderators are volunteer ones (the green names), so they don't get paid I don't think.

Still, UI is going to get a lot of changes to it for better or for worse. They seem to be heavily following community feedback: strip mech button (they even are gonna have checkmarks on what to strip (armor, weapons, equipment, etc), and we are getting a smurfy ui because everyone wanted it.) It's a step in the right direction.

Hopefully they don't lose sight of the path.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 18 February 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Yes, that's not the point. I was talking about EVERY OTHER AMMO EXPLOSION THAT IS INFINITELY MORE DETRIMENTAL THAN THE GAUSS RIFLE.

Considering you can only equip the GR in an arm or torso and that said explosion, even in the arm has a significant probability of eliminating your side torso, and given that most mechs that equip GR's have to also equip XL engines, it's pretty much a death sentence when it explodes.

I've never had ANY of my mechs survive a GR explosion. So, I don't know how much 'infinitely more' detrimental you can get from 'near certain death', ESPECIALLY from a completely discharged, unusable weapon...

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That's not what I said, and that's not what I meant. My point was that ammo explosions for most of other ammo types (not Gauss) makes you pretty much die outright. I'd just stop trying to suggest a different route for that, since it seems to boggle down the discussion.

But that's the thing. If you actually HAVE ammo and it blows up, ok, no argument. It's when there's ZERO ammo and still a high probably of explosion that there's a problem.

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No, what I'm saying was to rework ammo explosions across the board, so while you have have lost ALL your weapons that consume ammo, ammo explosions (whether you have the weapon or not anymore) won't make you instantly explode. It's one thing about losing your ammo based weapons, it's another thing to keep all the ticking time bomb ammo to explode because you can't consume/remove/deplete that ammo storage. It's simply easier to reduce the explosion damage regardless or not whether you have the weapons to use said ammo.

Again, the problem is NO OTHER WEAPON explodes or has ammo explosions when there IS NO AMMO.

Reworking the explosion mechanism does not fix the bug, of unloaded, non-ammo having GR's from their 90% chance of exploding and ending your game.

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I don't care anymore. In the world of PPCs, Gauss is still being used on better jump sniping players.

Yeah, the charge mechanism serves to protect poptaards more than anything as now there's no mechanism for a 'snap shot' that can reliably hit them while in the air. No, you have to wait for the .75 second charge cycle before you can shoot and by then, they're typically already dropped behind cover.

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Don't care, something has to get that status whether you like it or not. It simply happens to be the weapon that requires the most (well, technically, the AC20 requires a lot more)

The AC/20 reloads faster than the gauss, particularly because of the .75 charge cycle.

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Don't care. I got used to it, but I don't use it as much because of its existence.

You argue badly. You indicate that the GR MUST have a penalty, and I quickly list the top 3 and then you try and blow them off as 'matter of fact not penalties, just is'.

Try and add some actual thought to this ok?

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There, I've applied your logic to your own type of argument. Be more reasonable, then perhaps we can have a discussion.

No, you went full idiot. I presented arguments you just threw your hands up said you didn't care when you couldn't counter those arguments effectively.

[Sychodemus]

It isn't a 'bug' since it is doing exactly what the PGI developers want it to do.

However, it can be called poor implementation or generally a bad idea. Any number of things in the game's present state can be described as such.

But feel free to beg, plead, pester, petition and/or ask the developers to change a mechanic that is unnecessary (or stupid) - they may even respond one day - through suggestions rather than 'bug' reports.

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Considering you can only equip the GR in an arm or torso and that said explosion, even in the arm has a significant probability of eliminating your side torso, and given that most mechs that equip GR's have to also equip XL engines, it's pretty much a death sentence when it explodes.

That's a risk of taking XL. It has less to do with Gauss.

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Yeah, the charge mechanism serves to protect poptaards more than anything as now there's no mechanism for a 'snap shot' that can reliably hit them while in the air. No, you have to wait for the .75 second charge cycle before you can shoot and by then, they're typically already dropped behind cover.

Um, did you even read what I wrote? I still see those guys poptart with Gauss. Not everyone is like that, but there are plenty that still accomplish this despite said nerf. I still see 2 PPC+Gauss builds and 1 PPC + 2 Gauss builds.

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The AC/20 reloads faster than the gauss, particularly because of the .75 charge cycle.

You're making it sound like Gauss needs to be some sort of DPS wizard like the AC20. People keep using the DPS argument with the unlikely scenario of using Gauss (or the PPC) for that matter is to keep firing the weapon at will while the enemy stands there like some fool. Such an argument is better made for like the MG (though, not quite) or the AC2 or even the AC5. The Gauss Rifle is simply NOT one of them.

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You argue badly. You indicate that the GR MUST have a penalty, and I quickly list the top 3 and then you try and blow them off as 'matter of fact not penalties, just is'.

Try and add some actual thought to this ok?

I'm using your type of "logical argument" because you don't realize how you sound to everyone else.

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No, you went full idiot. I presented arguments you just threw your hands up said you didn't care when you couldn't counter those arguments effectively.

Intentionally, because you undermine your own argument.

Look, the weapon itself causes the explosion. So, whether or not you have ammo does not change this fact. Regardless of real life or fiction, stuff that explodes when contacted will continue to explode. In a video game, of course you can change that fact if you wanted to. HOWEVER, why would something that normally explodes under every circumstance change behavior because "you don't have ammo" or "you don't like that mechanic"?

Edited by Deathlike, 18 February 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Victor Morson]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 February 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

There is NO stored energy in your capacitors because there is NO point in charging them because you have NO ammo left. With new gauss firing mechanics gauss explosions should only happen while your fire button is pressed, aka when capacitors are charged / being charged.

The lack of an ability to disable the Gauss Rifle power is not a bug. It'd be a neat feature but you can't seriously scream "IT IS A BUG!" afterwords.

[Redshift2k5]

It's not a bug, it's doing what it should do.

• Does that mean you have to like it? No
  
• Does that mean you cannot suggest an alternative? No

Gauss rifle also explode in the original ruleset MWO's mechanics are based on, and trhis fucntion is accurate to the intended rules interpretation. Not a bug.


Stop treating it like a bug they refuse to aknowledge and start treating it as a suggestion. Stop acting like a child and make reasonable requests in a reasonable tone, and you won't have a whole thread of people dogpiling on you for your misconceptions.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 18 February 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Victor Morson, on 18 February 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

The lack of an ability to disable the Gauss Rifle power is not a bug. It'd be a neat feature but you can't seriously scream "IT IS A BUG!" afterwords.

"Its not a bug its a feature"^TM is almost as hilarious as "Working as intended"^TM.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 18 February 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

That's a risk of taking XL. It has less to do with Gauss.

No, it has everything to do with gauss, as the gauss is the only item in the game with such a high percentile chance of catastrophic explosion.

If I remember correctly, and I admit I could be misremembering, even FULL ammo slots only have a 50% chance of explosion.

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Um, did you even read what I wrote? I still see those guys poptart with Gauss. Not everyone is like that, but there are plenty that still accomplish this despite said nerf. I still see 2 PPC+Gauss builds and 1 PPC + 2 Gauss builds.

Yes, I read what you wrote, but you didn't comprehend what I wrote. My point is that the charge mechanic helps the poptaards more than it hurts them because the GR was the only weapon that was capable of reliably snap shotting them, BEFORE, the charge mechanic was put into place. Now that you can't snap shot a gauss, and all other means of delivering concentrated damage to them have also been nerfed, ala projectile speed nerfs, all you can do is hit them with lasers, but due to the nature of lasers, the damage is no longer concentrated to a single location allowing poptaards additional durability without suffering any of the drawbacks the mechanic puts on others. They jump, charge while jumping, they fire, they land, the stop for a bit to allow JJ recharge, which btw happens to allow them time to reload, they jump, charge while jumping, they fire, they land, rinse and repeat.

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You're making it sound like Gauss needs to be some sort of DPS wizard like the AC20. People keep using the DPS argument with the unlikely scenario of using Gauss (or the PPC) for that matter is to keep firing the weapon at will while the enemy stands there like some fool. Such an argument is better made for like the MG (though, not quite) or the AC2 or even the AC5. The Gauss Rifle is simply NOT one of them.

No, but with the new charge mechanic you're only allowed .25 seconds to correct your aim and fire, otherwise you have to suffer through ANOTHER .75 second recharge time. Before the charge mechanic the DPS was comparable with other ballistic weapons. AFTER the charge mechanic the reality of it is that it's DPS effectively falls to below that of machine guns, especially, if you suffer high ping issues like over seas players.

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I'm using your type of "logical argument" because you don't realize how you sound to everyone else.

Intentionally, because you undermine your own argument.

I don't believe I've used the "I don't care" as a 'logical' response to actual facts, and if you assume how YOUR interpretation of the 'sound' of my argument equates to EVERYONE ELSE's view, wow... Kind of arrogant aren't you...

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Look, the weapon itself causes the explosion. So, whether or not you have ammo does not change this fact. Regardless of real life or fiction, stuff that explodes when contacted will continue to explode. In a video game, of course you can change that fact if you wanted to. HOWEVER, why would something that normally explodes under every circumstance change behavior because "you don't have ammo" or "you don't like that mechanic"?

No, even according to PGI's explanation of the explosion, and TT explanation, it blows up due to the significant charge of the weapon has in its capacitors.

If there is no ammo, there is no charge.

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

No, it has everything to do with gauss, as the gauss is the only item in the game with such a high percentile chance of catastrophic explosion.

So? It's a risk-reward thing. Since you get a ballistic weapon that does high damage AND high range, something has to give. Sure it's about the same as an AC20 in terms of resource requirements, but the AC20 is a short range weapon.

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If I remember correctly, and I admit I could be misremembering, even FULL ammo slots only have a 50% chance of explosion.

Each ton of ammo has a 10% chance to explode, with damage based on how much ammo was actually left.

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Yes, I read what you wrote, but you didn't comprehend what I wrote. My point is that the charge mechanic helps the poptaards more than it hurts them because the GR was the only weapon that was capable of reliably snap shotting them, BEFORE, the charge mechanic was put into place. Now that you can't snap shot a gauss, and all other means of delivering concentrated damage to them have also been nerfed, ala projectile speed nerfs, all you can do is hit them with lasers, but due to the nature of lasers, the damage is no longer concentrated to a single location allowing poptaards additional durability without suffering any of the drawbacks the mechanic puts on others. They jump, charge while jumping, they fire, they land, the stop for a bit to allow JJ recharge, which btw happens to allow them time to reload, they jump, charge while jumping, they fire, they land, rinse and repeat.

It doesn't bother me either way.

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No, but with the new charge mechanic you're only allowed .25 seconds to correct your aim and fire, otherwise you have to suffer through ANOTHER .75 second recharge time. Before the charge mechanic the DPS was comparable with other ballistic weapons. AFTER the charge mechanic the reality of it is that it's DPS effectively falls to below that of machine guns, especially, if you suffer high ping issues like over seas players.

It's not that short. IIRC, it is .75 second to charge, then a short 1.25 second window to fire. I've been asking for an expanded firing window, but that isn't happening anytime soon.

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I don't believe I've used the "I don't care" as a 'logical' response to actual facts, and if you assume how YOUR interpretation of the 'sound' of my argument equates to EVERYONE ELSE's view, wow... Kind of arrogant aren't you...

Nope. Do you understand your argument sounds to others as "take my suggestion or screw you PGI" instead of "there should be some consideration in changing this behavior, because of this particular situation"? You might think it sounds like the latter, but as far as I read it with your argumentative style, the former is the case.

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No, even according to PGI's explanation of the explosion, and TT explanation, it blows up due to the significant charge of the weapon has in its capacitors.

If there is no ammo, there is no charge.

So, this is the time to apply TT behavior because it favors your argument?

Edited by Deathlike, 18 February 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Redshift2k5, on 18 February 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

It's not a bug, it's doing what it should do.

• Does that mean you have to like it? No
  
• Does that mean you cannot suggest an alternative? No

Gauss rifle also explode in the original ruleset MWO's mechanics are based on, and trhis fucntion is accurate to the intended rules interpretation. Not a bug.


Stop treating it like a bug they refuse to aknowledge and start treating it as a suggestion. Stop acting like a child and make reasonable requests in a reasonable tone, and you won't have a whole thread of people dogpiling on you for your misconceptions.

It's a bug.

I'm not being acting like a child, because I refuse to compromise. I stand by the fact that it's a bug and a balance issue.

Sure, PGI can spin it anyway they want, "undocumented feature", "random alternate response", "situational disparity" whatever, it's still actually a bug.

After TWO YEARS of this type of silliness PGI has spent any and all patience.

They deserve none.

WE are the paying customers (those of us that have purchased packages and in game items). THEY aren't providing this product out of some altruistic, brotherly love, coom by yah motivation.

They made unwarranted changes to a product affects products many of us have paid money for that are incomplete.

[Deathlike]

TBH, it's not a "bug" unless you prefer to play the semantics game. Most people do not consider that a "bug" but "undesired behavior".

[Stimraug]

I felt compelled to answer this thread once, and hopefully end the discussion started by the claim that GR is bugged. I will now quote your last post Dimento, and also hope to settle the matter once and for all.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Considering you can only equip the GR in an arm or torso and that said explosion, even in the arm has a significant probability of eliminating your side torso, and given that most mechs that equip GR's have to also equip XL engines, it's pretty much a death sentence when it explodes.

As a detail I'd like to point out that mechs using gauss are most often very viable with STD engines. Now, your way of building mechs might disagree with this statement, that's ok. Also, even if the full 20 points of damage transferred from an arm to the torso (also keep in mind the damage transfer mechanics and mitigation regarding them), all mechs capable of viably wielding gauss can withstand said damage, unless they were already very damaged, in which case the GR itself cannot be called a death sentence.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

But that's the thing. If you actually HAVE ammo and it blows up, ok, no argument. It's when there's ZERO ammo and still a high probably of explosion that there's a problem.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Again, the problem is NO OTHER WEAPON explodes or has ammo explosions when there IS NO AMMO.

This isn't tabletop. This is MWO. In MWO there is no implementation of a "Gauss powerdown" mechanic. Gauss rifles blow up because they are always active during combat, with their fragile inner workings powered up and active, i.e prone to explosion.

As you put it with capital letters, there is no other weapon that experiences explosions when there is no ammo. That is because there is no other gauss-type gun, a gun with active magnetic coils prone to explosion. This is how it is. That is why gauss rifle is unique. It does not matter in the slightest if the GR still has ammo left. It is the weapon that explodes due to damage, and the weapon is always active, i.e prone to explosion. Ammo has nothing, *nothing* to do with it. You cannot compare the other ballistics weapon mechanics with the gauss rifle.

These two paragraphs should now have explained to you why the Gauss Rifle or its mechanics are not bugged. This thread should now be solved. Everyone can move on.

Edited by Stimraug, 18 February 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Stimraug, on 18 February 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I felt compelled to answer this thread once, and hopefully end the discussion started by the claim that GR is bugged. I will now quote your last post Dimento, and also hope to settle the matter once and for all.

Don't bet on it. Unless you're a PGI employee, your word is not "the last" on this matter...

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As a detail I'd like to point out that mechs using gauss are most often are very viable with STD engines. Now, your way of building mechs might disagree with this statement, that's ok.

If you consider a 40kph 'mech as "very viable" well, I'll just say our opinions vary.

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This isn't tabletop. This is MWO.

One of my points, exactly.

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In MWO there is no implementation of a "Gauss powerdown" mechanic.

I'm not asking for that.

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Gauss rifles blow up because they are always active during combat, with their fragile inner workings powered up and active, i.e prone to explosion.

Please explain to me how a weapon with ZERO ammo is 'active'...

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As you put it with capital letters, there is no other weapon that experiences explosions when there is no ammo. That is because there is no other gauss-type gun, a gun with active magnetic coils prone to explosion. This is how it is. That is why gauss rifle is unique. It does not matter in the slightest if the GR still has ammo left. It is the weapon that explodes due to damage, and the weapon is always active, i.e prone to explosion. Ammo has nothing, *nothing* to do with it. You cannot compare the other ballistics weapon mechanics with the gauss rifle.

That's idiotic, and if you're reasoning is carried through then all PPC's and laser weapons should explode due to how they operate as well. PPC's are unique requiring a significant charge, arguably MORE SO than gauss, as you are creating an energy packet sufficient to cause significant damage at range, where as with gauss the energy being utilized only needs to be enough to push a packet of mass. Given that we're arguing the application of 'real physics' to a video game so we might as well be arguing what flavor the moon would be if it were actually made of cheese, the energy requirements of PPC's should be over and again as much as required for gauss.

We only maintain the explosion capability for gauss due to the history of the TT rules.

Granted, but since the implementation of the charge mechanic, something that in no way shape or form ever existed in any TT rule set or game lore, continuing to try and argue based on that is rather silly.

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These two paragraphs should now have explained to you why the Gauss Rifle or its mechanics are not bugged. This thread should now be solved. Everyone can move on.

You lack the authority to even express that opinion, but good for you.

[Robertak]

haha, guys.. if this was only problem of MWO, there couldn't be happier person then me.. imho this is not a bug nor a problem.. just mount c.a.s.e. and you'll be fine.. ;-)