247 replies to this topic

[Navy Sixes]

I wouldn't mind if internal structures were made a little more stout, but I think doubling the armor -again- for all mechs is a bad idea.

I haven't seen anyone address ammo consumption. Can we make machine guns, AC/2s, LRMs, and SRMs any more useless than they already are? I run a pair of AC/2s on my BJ-1, and I have to work hard for every kill, unless I get really lucky. Again with an LRM30 Cat, it's not easy to keep an LOS lock on a target that's returning fire long enough to strip off their armor as things stand. If you double the armor, these systems will run out of ammo long before they've had any real impact on the enemy.

I think this will force lighter mechs out of the game -as if their weren't enough people running assaults- because they will be unable to carry enough ammo for the smaller weapon systems to have an impact. When they're run at all, lights and mediums will be energy-build only. I don't think that's good for the game.

I get that the OP wants to make mechs more survivable, and I know those high-alpha meta-killers are a pain, so I sympathize. With that said, I think doubling everyone's armor will actually limit players to running the big weapon systems that can get through it all, and subsequently running the big mechs that can carry them. I think it's the 'run heavy or die' norm that is killing this game as it stands. We need more incentives to get people out of their high-tonnage builds, not more reasons for them to go big or go home.

Someone said something about play-style, and I have to agree. When I run my paper-mache Blackjack, I am often frustrated by how quickly I die. But an honest self-assessment of my death always makes me realize where I screwed up. When I'm on my game, I'm plenty survivable .

[Marmon Rzohr]

IMHO, doubling the armor again would not do anything really cool for the game. (although perhaps it should be tested on the test servers)

What I predict would happen:
1) Matches would last longer
2) Brawlers might become more potent
3) Pinpoint damage would become even more important as it would be even more paramount to focus damage.
4) There would be more QQ about lights as they would be less vunerable to being crippled by one or two shots (and people who are bad have trouble with them already)
5) Ammo/ton would need to be buffed or used much more carefully

It would shake things up a bit, which might be a good thing, but it cetainly would not solve any of the balance problems the game has. For instance the AC40 mechs were mentioned. They would be just as much OP as they were before if not more since now you couldn't kill them at range if the pilots were any good, the DPS and dmg they could do relative to other builds would be just as overwhelming, it would just take more shots for them to kill stuff.

So the only consequence would be that you'd run out of ammo much more. Not really a meaningful change in balance.

[Ghogiel]

Khobai, on 18 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

werds

Everyone needs to respect this top level MWO player because he is a monster in game, he says torso twisting doesn't work and is situational at best. He must be right



Said no one ever.

[Trauglodyte]

SirLANsalot, on 18 February 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

According to PGI mechs are still dieing too fast, and have said that doubling the armor again would be a bad idea.

I think it would be a great idea and while were at it, triple current component HP as well.


So if armor was doubled again (4x over "TT" values) what would happen to the builds? What would happen to the weapons?

Well for starters, builds would mostly stay the same, some would be junked like the twin AC20 jager, but this would be a good thing (seeing AC40 mechs go away wouldn't be missed). An argument was made that if armor was increased again, that high alpha builds would be the only thing used. This is quite quite false, as armor increases the alpha builds become a little less desirable. In favor of high DPS builds were mechs are slugging it out and running very hot (very much like how things are described in the BT books). When armor levels are low, high alpha "boats" become a problem, because they are the most effective thing in wiping out a mech in a few vollys. However when armor values are increased exponentially, while weapons remain the same, you start to see people looking for the most effective DPS builds. Thats not to say high alpha won't be around, but it won't be the cream of the crop that it is now.

A suggestion was made to reduce weapons instead of just adding more armor. The issue with this is it would leave a very bad taste in most players mouths after being used to XX weapons fire rate and damage. Plus with the added armor you do get to keep damage values that make sense (AC20 is 20 damage ect ect).

A few examples of quadrupled armor.

Mr. Atlas would have a CT combined armor of 248 (current 124). When front loaded that would be 200 points of armor in the CT with 48 in the rear. This would give the big boy the tankyness he really dose need for his size. It would be scary to come up against that much armor, which would be quite literally the point!

Light mechs would benefit from this the most but yet still remain frgiale as there legs are there weak points.




"But what about cannonicity? TT didn't do this."

No it didn't, but this game isn't TT, and isn't a 100% cannon game either and the sooner people get that through there heads, the better. Stop trying to make this game Table Top, or a game that follows the lore to the letter. If you want a TT game, go play MW:T which is far closer to TT rules and build rules then this game.

Here are the two issues and it is incredibly surprising that this went through and how even more people don't know about it. First off, we do need to have internals match external armor just to increase time to kill. But, here is the big kicker:

Some patches ago, PGI slipped in this sweet little nugget: 15% of all critical damage will now be transferred to the Internal Structure.

In case you don't understand this, when you do damage to the internal structure, you have a chance to score 1, 2, or 3 criticals. I'm a little fuzzy on the actual specifics but I think that it is 20%, 8% and 3% for anything that isn't a MG, Flamer, or LB weapon. So, you've stripped your target mech and smashed some internal structure for X damage. You're in luck and you scored a critical. That critical damage is applied to an item in that location. If there is an item there, it takes weapon damage x critical mutliplier amount of damage. 15% of that is then reapplied to the internal structure. SO, the second you score a critical hit, you're double taxing your target. And, in this game, there is no way to miss the IS and smash an item in the location so every hit is going directly to the IS. If you critically hit, all the better for you.

Oh, and the most potent weapons in the game (ie, anything that does 10+ damage instantly) are also the best at disposing of equipment as all items, except for the AC20, have 10 health or less. Get a crit with one of those items and you're not only instantly hosed an item but you've also done 1.5+ damage back to the IS that you already hit. Loverly isn't it?

[Mokou]

Just another crutch.

[Adiuvo]

Khobai, on 18 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

I didnt say you were bad. I said you were wrong. Torso twisting has been around since MW2, and its always been highly situational at best. It doesnt significantly increase mech survivability. And the reality is pinpoint damage is far worse in MWO than any other mechwarrior game before it.

If you have to torso twist it means youre taking damage. And whenever youre taking damage and cant shoot back it means youre out of position. Flanking through cover is a much better defense than walking out in the open and torso twisting. Really the only time you should be torso twisting is if its one of those weird 1v1 or 1v2 fights where everybody is cored out and will die in one shot. Like I said its situational at best.

Also tournament wins dont mean anything. If they did my opinion would be far more validated than yours

I'm not sure what level you play this game at but nobody in competitive play walks out into the open and torso twists. Nobody. People use cover and torso twist.

Torso twisting is never situational because of the travel time and reload time for PPCs/ACs. The most basic thing is shooting and then immediately giving them your left side to shoot at if you're in a Highlander or Dragon Slayer, because you *will* be shot back at if you're fighting a good team. There is no 'flanking' as you describe it in competitive play. You cannot, in your 90 ton assault mech, move yourself to a new location for free shots without the enemy noticing. They will notice, they will turn, and they will shoot straight back at you once you pop up to fire.

As for the tournament wins comment... who are you? What unit do you play for?

[Craig Steele]

+1 to increase durability.

Weapons do way more dmg than TT so the "its not canon' argument is not going to hold.

But it will give players a better chance to use tacticial play and will have an impact on reducing the effectiviness of autocannons and missiles (vis a vis ammo).

Double it again. Can't happen quick enough

[nemesis271989]

SirLANsalot, on 18 February 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

According to PGI mechs are still dieing too fast, and have said that doubling the armor again would be a bad idea.

I think it would be a great idea and while were at it, triple current component HP as well.


So if armor was doubled again (4x over "TT" values) what would happen to the builds? What would happen to the weapons?

Well for starters, builds would mostly stay the same, some would be junked like the twin AC20 jager, but this would be a good thing (seeing AC40 mechs go away wouldn't be missed). An argument was made that if armor was increased again, that high alpha builds would be the only thing used. This is quite quite false, as armor increases the alpha builds become a little less desirable. In favor of high DPS builds were mechs are slugging it out and running very hot (very much like how things are described in the BT books). When armor levels are low, high alpha "boats" become a problem, because they are the most effective thing in wiping out a mech in a few vollys. However when armor values are increased exponentially, while weapons remain the same, you start to see people looking for the most effective DPS builds. Thats not to say high alpha won't be around, but it won't be the cream of the crop that it is now.

A suggestion was made to reduce weapons instead of just adding more armor. The issue with this is it would leave a very bad taste in most players mouths after being used to XX weapons fire rate and damage. Plus with the added armor you do get to keep damage values that make sense (AC20 is 20 damage ect ect).

A few examples of quadrupled armor.

Mr. Atlas would have a CT combined armor of 248 (current 124). When front loaded that would be 200 points of armor in the CT with 48 in the rear. This would give the big boy the tankyness he really dose need for his size. It would be scary to come up against that much armor, which would be quite literally the point!

Light mechs would benefit from this the most but yet still remain frgiale as there legs are there weak points.




"But what about cannonicity? TT didn't do this."

No it didn't, but this game isn't TT, and isn't a 100% cannon game either and the sooner people get that through there heads, the better. Stop trying to make this game Table Top, or a game that follows the lore to the letter. If you want a TT game, go play MW:T which is far closer to TT rules and build rules then this game.

I like that so I won't lose my side torso with 1 hit in my Atlas
Definitely YES!

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 18 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

I didnt say you were bad. I said you were wrong. Torso twisting has been around since MW2, and its always been highly situational at best. It doesnt significantly increase mech survivability. And the reality is pinpoint damage is far worse in MWO than any other mechwarrior game before it.

Bahahahahaha *snort* ahahahahaha

Way to give away the fact you've never played a MechWarrior game ever before this one. MW2 was a Large Laser hitscanapalooza. MechWarrior 3 was probably the most varied of the bunch, but online it was all hitscan lasers for the same reason. MechWarrior 4? With the exception of missiles that game was entirely hitscan. Its the reason they had to make all the weapons in the game about as effective as peeing on your opponents leg. If they didn't, people would instagib as soon as they were in range.

Don't believe me? Go back and play MW4. A bunch of friends and I got fed up with MWO the other day and decided to play the version we all fondly remembered. We the realized how big and clunky our nostalgia glasses were, took them off, and realized how crap MW4 is compared to MWO. MWO has problems, but gameplay wise it is by far the best MechWarrior ever.

Edited by Josef Nader, 18 February 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[nemesis271989]

Ghogiel, on 18 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Everyone needs to respect this top level MWO player because he is a monster in game, he says torso twisting doesn't work and is situational at best. He must be right



Said no one ever.

I highly doubt it!!!
Using Highlander PPC+AC and 1 JJ poptarting doesn't make anyone TOP level player.
I would Say TOP LEVEL OF SYSTEM ABUSING!!!

[TehSBGX]

Personally, I think increasing internals first should be looked at. At most Armor should be triple TT values.

Trauglodyte, on 18 February 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Some patches ago, PGI slipped in this sweet little nugget: 15% of all critical damage will now be transferred to the Internal Structure.

Also This might need to be removed. Why Pgi did this is beyond me, thats a mechanic screaming 'abuse me'.

[CrashieJ]

weapons should be able to deviate from pinpoint damage based on mech speed and other perks.

weightclass, engine size, weapon size, chassis perks, maybe even Gyro size and player speed can determine where your shots could land.

weapons could also determine accuracy; your double AC20 Jager will me less accurate Alpha-.50 second shots than a Jager firing .75 or supplementing 1 AC20 with medium lasers or an AC10

Lights can have a higher speedcap accuracy wall than assaults.
20 tonner Locusts running 150kph/163kph will be more accurate than a Jenner going 150kph/150kph

you want pinpoint damage? slow down and and take your time aiming.
you want even more accuracy? Pilot something with lighter weapons systems and space your shots

[Mcgral18]

Ghogiel, on 18 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Everyone needs to respect this top level MWO player because he is a monster in game, he says torso twisting doesn't work and is situational at best. He must be right



Said no one ever.

Well, if it's 1 VS 1 all it does is let your weapons recharge without taking CT damage, since if your opponent has any patience whatsoever he will wait for you to face forward, then take a full alpha to CT before your weapons can touch him. But then the situation is reversed.

Certainly not useless, and normally worth it, but some pilots won't waste their ammo.

[Ghogiel]

nemesis271989, on 18 February 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

I highly doubt it!!!
Using Highlander PPC+AC and 1 JJ poptarting doesn't make anyone TOP level player.
I would Say TOP LEVEL OF SYSTEM ABUSING!!!

ggclose

[Josef Nader]

gavilatius, on 18 February 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

weapons should be able to deviate from pinpoint damage based on mech speed and other perks.

weightclass, engine size, weapon size, chassis perks, maybe even Gyro size and player speed can determine where your shots could land.

weapons could also determine accuracy; your double AC20 Jager will me less accurate Alpha-.50 second shots than a Jager firing .75 or supplementing 1 AC20 with medium lasers or an AC10

Lights can have a higher speedcap accuracy wall than assaults.
20 tonner Locusts running 150kph/163kph will be more accurate than a Jenner going 150kph/150kph

you want pinpoint damage? slow down and and take your time aiming.
you want even more accuracy? Pilot something with lighter weapons systems and space your shots

All this does is turn the game into a snipe fest. No thanks.

[Roland]

Quote

as armor increases the alpha builds become a little less desirable.

No they don't.
They continue to be just as desirable as ever, for exactly the same reasons.

No matter how much armor you have, high alpha builds will continue to be the best way to punch through it.

Not sure how folks can still fail to understand such a fundamental and basic aspect of mech design.. it's been true in every single mechwarrior title to date.

nemesis271989, on 18 February 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

I highly doubt it!!!
Using Highlander PPC+AC and 1 JJ poptarting doesn't make anyone TOP level player.
I would Say TOP LEVEL OF SYSTEM ABUSING!!!

If someone beats you, it means they're better than you. Period.

You don't get any secret bonus points for running some garbage boy build with LBX and pulse lasers.

[Justy Starflare]

id rather not double up armor values. i do have a fixable suggestion and it would also
get rid of the really farked up ghost heat issue and that is change weapon slots to
heavy and light along with the energy ballistic and missile what we have is a problem
with people that have mechs that come with lets say 1 ppc 6 med lasers and 2 mgs in the
battlemaster people are going with 6 er large lasers and 2 ac2's. the med lasers weighing
in at 1 ton and the 2 mg's weighing in at 1/2 a ton would all be light weapons. to upgrade
the med lasers to large lasers would take 2 light slots per large laser therefor only 1 lg laser
in each locastion can be upgraded. and the 2 mg's would be considered light slots but
upgrading to 2 ac2's would also be considered light even tho the ac2's weigh in at 6 tons
each. but if upgraded to ac5's then those would be heavy. but this also does not work
in the reverse cannot put to light weapons in 1 heavy slot.

[Craig Steele]

Roland, on 18 February 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

No they don't.
They continue to be just as desirable as ever, for exactly the same reasons.

No matter how much armor you have, high alpha builds will continue to be the best way to punch through it. (1)

Not sure how folks can still fail to understand such a fundamental and basic aspect of mech design (2).. it's been true in every single mechwarrior title to date.


If someone beats you, it means they're better than you. Period.

You don't get any secret bonus points for running some garbage boy build with LBX and pulse lasers.

(1) Except in a higher armour envirnoment you have to actually be a good shot and do repeated damage to the same location to efficient destory a mech instead of one lucky shot to a torso that had been scratched before. The only pin point adherent that would argue against more armour is the one who doubted his ability to repeat his skill 2 or 3 times.

(2) 'Mech design' implies TT rules (cause you know, thats where mechs were designed originally) and there is a extremely minimal chance of taking out a mech with a torso shot with one salvo in those rules. Heck even just hitting the one location was hard.

Here's the bottom line.

Excellent shots will still take out a mech with a pin point alpha by targetting the head, cause they're good. Efficient, clean, one shot. No change for them if durability goes up.

Average players currently rorting the mechanics to one shot mechs with torso kills will not be receptive to a change that takes away their glory. They won't like the proposal.

Average players who are not rorting the mechanics will appreciate greater mech durability for the tactical applications.

Less than average players will still be canon fodder but they will run around a bit longer and probably learn a bit more from their mistakes (vis a vis, where did that come from, oh there?)

More winner than losers for increasing durability, please execute durability increase.

[kesuga7]

triple armor?
yes please

mechs just don't feel like mechs sometimes

and its not just the high pinpoint builds

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

If someone beats you, it means they're better than you. Period.

That isn't entirely true. I've been beaten cause I had a moron moment. And, I've been beaten because I thought that I had backup only to have my backup disappear in the opposite direction as the enemy showed up. But yeah, mostly cause someone was better.