50 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

Why does ECM stack?
If there are 2 ECM's by eachother, you can't cancel them out with B.A.P. ?

seriously?

[Sinthrow]

Thats right ECM the best 1.5 tons you can mount.
but at least now BAP will cancel one ECM in disrupt mode. you should have been here last year. Oh what fun. only ecm light mechs running around with streak missiles.

[Willard Phule]

That's actually the way it's SUPPOSED to work.

Each ECM has a 180m "bubble" around it. When you get two of them together, it takes two counter-measures to shut them down.

Now...if you had BAP and you nailed it with a NARC as well, it SHOULD cancel it out for the one that's been NARCed. In theory. Don't know if that actually works in game, though.

That having been said, I do know that if you've got BAP and ECM on something (like a D-DC) and you switch the ECM over to counter...it WILL shut down two ECM lights. I've done it.

[xhrit]

bap stacks too.

[Pjwned]

While I would like to say that BAP should cancel out any number of ECM, that would obviously make it grossly overpowered, which is funny since ECM is ridiculous how much it does for how little weight and space it takes.

[Khobai]

Not sure why BAP even counters ECM. It makes ECM suck pretty bad when everyone with streaks has BAP. Hopefully when NARC is buffed theyll remove BAP as a counter to ECM.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 22 February 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Not sure why BAP even counters ECM. It makes ECM suck pretty bad when everyone with streaks has BAP. Hopefully when NARC is buffed theyll remove BAP as a counter to ECM.

Because you shouldn't be able to passively render an entire weapon system completely useless (on top of everything else ECM does) with equipment that weighs less than 2 tons, or at least not without a piece of equipment available that counters it in a similar fashion. Keep in mind that BAP on streak boats is pretty much only used so that ECM won't render their missiles completely useless and that it takes up 1.5 tons that would almost certainly be better used elsewhere if ECM wasn't so ridiculous.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 February 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 22 February 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Not sure why BAP even counters ECM. It makes ECM suck pretty bad when everyone with streaks has BAP. Hopefully when NARC is buffed theyll remove BAP as a counter to ECM.

One might wonder why ECM affects missile targeting at all...

Quote

Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM

So BAP counters ECM because ECM does way more than it should (basically, it's a combination of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, Stealth Armour, and Null Signature System, all for just the low, low price of 1.5 tons).

[Khobai]

Quote

Because you shouldn't be able to passively render an entire weapon system completely useless

Then fix that on ECM itself. Dont add goofy counters and create a ridiculous system of one thing absolutely countering another. The whole way ECM and its counters work is asinine.

Quote

One might wonder why ECM affects missile targeting at all...

I think its acceptable for ECM to increase lock-on times. Since its conceivable for ECM to interfere with targeting computers. However ECM should not prevent missiles from firing at all nor should it grant any form of stealth. Thats what NSS, stealth armor, etc... are for and those are separate pieces of equipment.

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Foxfire]

Pjwned, on 22 February 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Because you shouldn't be able to passively render an entire weapon system completely useless (on top of everything else ECM does) with equipment that weighs less than 2 tons, or at least not without a piece of equipment that counters it in a similar fashion. Keep in mind that BAP on streak boats is pretty much only used so that ECM won't render their missiles completely useless and that it takes up 1.5 tons that would almost certainly be better used elsewhere if ECM wasn't so ridiculous.

If we were talking about weapons that took skill to used, I'd agree with you but I have no issue with ECM doing this to streaks. It'll only get worse when Clan streaks come into play and we see Streak 4 and 6 packs on the field.

[General Taskeen]

Some misleading posts in here, with a lot "supposed to do this and that."

ECM did not block missiles from locking on and firing period in line of sight. BAP, TAG, or counter ECCM were not required items to fire missiles on an ECM equipped Mech in line of sight.

Right now BAP is just a tool in MWO to "turn on" your Streak missiles, nothing more, that's what it has (shallowly) been reduced to.

The fact that ECM is the way it is in the game and other items programmed around it, is pretty bad for a F2P game. A new player shouldn't "have" to expect to equip an item to shoot a weapon period in a F2P game, when the original game MWO is based on certainly did not, nor did any previous Mech Warrior game.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 22 February 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Then fix that on ECM itself. Dont add goofy counters and create a ridiculous system of one thing absolutely countering another. The whole way ECM and its counters work is asinine.



I think its acceptable for ECM to increase lock-on times. Since its conceivable for ECM to interfere with targeting computers. However ECM should not prevent missiles from firing at all nor should it grant any form of stealth. Thats what NSS, stealth armor, etc... are for and those are separate pieces of equipment.

I would agree but I'm assuming PGI won't do anything about it for a long time, if ever.

[Foxfire]

General Taskeen, on 22 February 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Some misleading posts in here, with a lot "supposed to do this and that."

ECM did not block missiles from locking on and firing period in line of sight. BAP, TAG, or counter ECCM were not required items to fire missiles on an ECM equipped Mech in line of sight.

Right now BAP is just a tool in MWO to "turn on" your Streak missiles, nothing more, that's what it has (shallowly) been reduced to.

The fact that ECM is the way it is in the game and other items programmed around it, is pretty bad for a F2P game. A new player shouldn't "have" to expect to equip an item to shoot a weapon period in a F2P game, when the original game MWO is based on certainly did not, nor did any previous Mech Warrior game.

I do think they need to rework how ECM works in this game.. it really should only block info passing from out of the bubble and for lock on weapons it should act as more of an 'anti-artimis' when you have LoS.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister D, on 22 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Why does ECM stack?
If there are 2 ECM's by eachother, you can't cancel them out with B.A.P. ?

seriously?

Those are actual rules from way back.

A single BAP can cancel a single ECM. Multiple ECM requires multiple BAP.

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

If we were talking about weapons that took skill to used, I'd agree with you but I have no issue with ECM doing this to streaks. It'll only get worse when Clan streaks come into play and we see Streak 4 and 6 packs on the field.

Actually it makes sense that ECM affects Streaks, but not the simpler Missiles, Unless and I on't remember it being) Laser guided.

[Pjwned]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

If we were talking about weapons that took skill to used, I'd agree with you but I have no issue with ECM doing this to streaks. It'll only get worse when Clan streaks come into play and we see Streak 4 and 6 packs on the field.

It doesn't take any skill to just completely deny their effectiveness with 1 small piece of equipment either.

[Foxfire]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 February 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Those are actual rules from way back.

A single BAP can cancel a single ECM. Multiple ECM requires multiple BAP.


Actually it makes sense that ECM affects Streaks, but not the simpler Missiles, Unless and I on't remember it being) Laser guided.

Which is why I have no issue with ECM nullifying streaks. LRM's as they are implemented in the game are actually using tech that, in the game time, wouldn't be available until ~3055. If we were using the tech that was actually available at the timeframe this game is in, then there wouldn't be any missile tracking for LRM's since it was really vollies of dumbfire missles and the lock on was actually for the fire control computer to calculate the trajectory to hit the target.

[Foxfire]

Pjwned, on 22 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

It doesn't take any skill to just completely deny their effectiveness with 1 small piece of equipment either.

Nor did I claim that it took skill to do so. The difference being, of course, that the small piece of equipment isn't capable of killing you.

[Pjwned]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Nor did I claim that it took skill to do so. The difference being, of course, that the small piece of equipment isn't capable of killing you.

If you pack short range weapons and then suddenly find that half (or more) of your weapons are non-functional in a fight then you might as well be dead, and if not dead then almost worthless which is about as bad. Keep in mind that even if a streak boat does have BAP on it (which it pretty much always will) the enemy only needs 1 more ECM to still completely neuter its offense.

When ECM is fixed to not be as ridiculous then maybe we can talk about what counters it or not, until then BAP countering ECM is the best solution.

I'm also not saying that streaks do take any real skill, because they don't, but people also overestimate how useful streaks are because they spread damage even worse than lasers arguably.

[Foxfire]

A single streak isn't scary but when you have streak boats such as Shadowhawks and Kintaros, they become very deadly.

Anyways, there has to be some penalty for picking streaks over standard SRM's.. and while streaks right now are limited to 2packs, that will be changing in a couple of months.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 February 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Actually it makes sense that ECM affects Streaks, but not the simpler Missiles, Unless and I on't remember it being) Laser guided.

No, it does not make sense that Guardian ECM affect Streaks, as it is explicitly stated in the TT rules that it doesn't. You'd need an Angel ECM Suite for that.

Also, SRMs aren't really any "simpler" than SSRMs; there's little difference between them and they're both guided missiles. The main difference is that the Streak launcher won't launch if not every missile has a hard lock (so as to preserve ammo), whereas the SRM launcher will fire whether or not the missiles have lock. See Tech Manual, pp 229-230.

The only dumb-fire missiles in BattleTech are the MRMs.

Edited by stjobe, 22 February 2014 - 11:47 AM.