79 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

Roland, on 20 February 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Potatard?

I think we're getting closer!

[GalaxyBluestar]

sorry op but penalties for builds is better than hard counter limits to builds. you're saying because people are clever mech builders their use of the customisation rules lead to an outright ban.

the end though, that exemption with things like the awesome getting bonuses etc.

maybe pgi could start rationalising their ghost heat rules with energy drain. reactors get dodgy with sharp power spikes {ghostheat} some mechs were made specifically with weapon systems in mind {boating} to handle this so these mechs are built with routers, capacitors etc to handle this drain {alpha spam}. call it stock perk.

so...

awesome chassis perk - minus 15 ghost heat points to any energy combination that approaches ghostheat
so 3 erppc's being fired now doesn't cause ghost heat, it's now exclusive to the awesome {and any stock energy boat} other mechs trying to emulate this {stalker} gets the full penalty.

jagger mech chassis perk - minus 5 ghost heat points to any ballistic combo that approaches ghost heat
the jager gains some cooling for it's ac20 combo so other mechs wouldn't want to try it. not that boom cats are around much these days.

stalker chassis perk - minus 5 ghost heat points to any missile combo that approaches ghost heat.
gives more pronounced role warfare to the chassis i suppose.

yeah it's a loose idea but i'm just posting it for stiring purposes.

[Rebas Kradd]

I would be more comfortable with higher caps on the beam and SRM categories. It'll take a beam cap of like 45 to let in any respectable energy builds; let the cooldowns do the rest from there.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sephlock, on 20 February 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

The Jagermech should be a walking dakka stick.

I miss the days of my 4x UAC Jager facing down an enemy Atlas.

You DARE to challenge me? KNEEL BEFORE YOUR MASTER!

You know, What I like and loathe about this game is that on TT a 4 AC5 Jager... was a joke of a Mech(nobody used em except one Staunch FedRat). The majority of Chassis we have are some of the least used on TT. But here your 4 AC5 Jager is throwing almost as much damage as 4 Gauss in DpS.

[wanderer]

Solaris style heat rules bent things more strongly towards non-energy builds, but MWO goes past "bent" to darn near "break" in that regard. Heat is energy "ammo", so anything that tweaks heat loads has a disproportionate effect on them.

Combine that with the focused damage ballistic weapons provide and you get what we've got. Proper 2.0 DHS would have relatively minimal blessings to most sink-light ballistic layouts, but would be a boon to energy ones. As it is, it's as if they reduced the number of shots firable by energy weapons by 30%, while adding 25% more shot time to ballistics. It's a big shift.

[East Indy]

Rebas Kradd, on 20 February 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

I would be more comfortable with higher caps on the beam and SRM categories. It'll take a beam cap of like 45 to let in any respectable energy builds; let the cooldowns do the rest from there.

There are hardly any builds affected by 45. Letting a swayback fire its hunch (30) is a fair start. At 36, four regular/ER and three pulse larges fit. That might work.

Edit: SRMs would need a boost, correct. Had a math-related mental lapse. It's up to 36.

Edited by East Indy, 21 February 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 20 February 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

Doesn't McKenna play for the Snow Ravens? In that case, I think he kind of knows what top level competitive play is.

Correct but it's ok Roland.
There plenty of people around here being king's of the crapheap so i don't expect much sense from most people.

I mean there are people out there that think the LBX 10 is worth it's weight.

[Belorion]

No.

[Varent]

DV McKenna, on 21 February 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Correct but it's ok Roland.
There plenty of people around here being king's of the crapheap so i don't expect much sense from most people.

I mean there are people out there that think the LBX 10 is worth it's weight.

In close brawling it most assuredly is.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Varent, on 21 February 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

In close brawling it most assuredly is.

I hear spreading damage is the way forward.

[Varent]

DV McKenna, on 22 February 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I hear spreading damage is the way forward.

Train of thought.

at close range the spread is the same as srm.

srm are great brawling weapons at close range.

people dont deny srm are great brawling weapons, only the hit detection.

I think you can fill in the blanks.

questions?

[pnaksone]

To be realistic in damage you would need to track armor location dynamically and track component location damage dynamically. Instead of eleven armor locations you would need dozens if not hundreds of them. Every location of armor would have to be seen as being it own component and track is their anything behind that piece of armor to damage.

[Roland]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Train of thought.

at close range the spread is the same as srm.

srm are great brawling weapons at close range.

people dont deny srm are great brawling weapons, only the hit detection.

I don't think anyone considers the SRM to be a good weapon any more... You certainly don't see them used competitively like they once were.

And the reason that they aren't used, but once were, is not because the hit detection got worse... it didn't. It's because they fixed a bug with it, and earlier in the game's development a single SRM was sometimes doing as much as 15 damage. This meant that even with spread, the SRM's were doing an absolutely insane amount of damage (especially compared to their weight and heat generation), to the extent that spread didn't matter... because you could obliterate EVERY section of the target at once.

Once Amaris conclusively proved that the bug existed, and PGI fixed it, SRM's basically fell out of use.

Although, beyond that... You are suggesting that the LBX is "as good as SRM's"... Only it weighs far more, and takes up far more critical space.

The reality is, no one good thinks the LBX is anything other than a trash tier weapon.

[Varent]

Roland, on 22 February 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I don't think anyone considers the SRM to be a good weapon any more... You certainly don't see them used competitively like they once were.

And the reason that they aren't used, but once were, is not because the hit detection got worse... it didn't. It's because they fixed a bug with it, and earlier in the game's development a single SRM was sometimes doing as much as 15 damage. This meant that even with spread, the SRM's were doing an absolutely insane amount of damage (especially compared to their weight and heat generation), to the extent that spread didn't matter... because you could obliterate EVERY section of the target at once.

Once Amaris conclusively proved that the bug existed, and PGI fixed it, SRM's basically fell out of use.

Although, beyond that... You are suggesting that the LBX is "as good as SRM's"... Only it weighs far more, and takes up far more critical space.

The reality is, no one good thinks the LBX is anything other than a trash tier weapon.

when I actually see you in any game que with anyone decent I might take your word as law roland. That said the versatility the lbx has as far as ranges and differentiation are what make it worth it. You are basically saying simply because the lbx has a spread at larger ranges its worthless, wich simply isnt true.

The bug has nothing to do with people not using SRM. People stopped using them with the advent of the highlander/victor meta. That was the downfall of them.

[Roland]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

when I actually see you in any game que with anyone decent I might take your word as law roland.

Well, I repeatedly get put in games with some of the best players in the game, like Kaffeangst, so I tend to think that the games I'm seeing aren't at the bottom of the barrel.

Honestly, I have no idea who you are. I know you seem to think that you play in the top tiers, but given that you've suggested that LBX is a good weapon, and Medium mechs have assaults cowering in fear... I'm not really sure where you're getting that idea.

Like.. are you so awesome that you've actually gone above those folks in elo, and the meta loops around to where the best players are all using flamers and LBX? Cause if that's the case, I must admit that I was unaware, and I bow to your superiority.

But that being said, if you want to keep using LBX, that's totally your own call dude.

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

The bug has nothing to do with people not using SRM. People stopped using them with the advent of the highlander/victor meta. That was the downfall of them.

Oh really? You don't think that a 90% reduction in damage had anything to do with SRM's disappearance out of competitive play? Okey doke.

[Varent]

Roland, on 22 February 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Well, I repeatedly get put in games with some of the best players in the game, like Kaffeangst, so I tend to think that the games I'm seeing aren't at the bottom of the barrel.

Honestly, I have no idea who you are. I know you seem to think that you play in the top tiers, but given that you've suggested that LBX is a good weapon, and Medium mechs have assaults cowering in fear... I'm not really sure where you're getting that idea.

Like.. are you so awesome that you've actually gone above those folks in elo, and the meta loops around to where the best players are all using flamers and LBX? Cause if that's the case, I must admit that I was unaware, and I bow to your superiority.

But that being said, if you want to keep using LBX, that's totally your own call dude.

Oh really? You don't think that a 90% reduction in damage had anything to do with SRM's disappearance out of competitive play? Okey doke.

Oh I make no claim to be awesome. But I know I play in a high tier as well just because of who I get matched against. That said im actually smart enough to know the difference between sterile testing and in game testing. Im also considerate enough to not have to belittle others to prove my own superiority, though I do say I find this little mud slinging match that you have started amusing. And revealing. Regarding the SRM, you can tell yourself whatever helps you sleep better at night. Numbers don't lie. The SRM are the Primary brawling weapon brought low by the many above mentioned facts that ive already stated and you wish to ignore.

[Roland]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Im also considerate enough to not have to belittle others to prove my own superiority

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

when I actually see you in any game que with anyone decent I might take your word as law roland.

Seriously though, you realize that prior to that bug fix, back when SRM's were widely used in competitive play, they were doing upwards of 15 damage each, right? Like 15 damage PER MISSILE?

THAT is why they were used.

[Fooooo]

Roland, on 22 February 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Seriously though, you realize that prior to that bug fix, back when SRM's were widely used in competitive play, they were doing upwards of 15 damage each, right? Like 15 damage PER MISSILE?

THAT is why they were used.

I guess thats another option there for the frontloaded weapon problem.........

Not that I don't like the OP's idea of Targetting load or power limits etc as others have suggested.

I guess its always good to have more ideas or options for PGI to draw from. (not that they haven't thought of most of the ideas that get mentioned....they probably have to some degree.)


Basically up all lasers and missiles dmg by a fair margin. (maybe not so much lrms...but a little. )

That way even tho those weapons are hitting more locations on a mech generally, they will be doing far more dmg to those spots, and holding the beam on 1 location will almost do dmg as fast as a frontloaded weapon...etc etc......

So say holding the beam on a single point for half the current duration = the dmg we get from a full beam now etc etc...

Not that I really like that option tho as doing it that way is a little muddy and can cause other problems which I don't like.



Roland is right on the SRMS, everyone knows it was the splash.

When splash was more than .001 radius or whatever they set at now, they did way more dmg than they were "supposed" to.



If you take what I said above about increasing dmg.....

SRMS would need to be near 3 or 4 dmg a missile maybe higher to get to somewhat close to the "splash" days (the 15 per missile if roland is correct there.....I remember a post from paul showing how much more they were doing etc) where they actually felt pretty powerful.

LBX would need to be 3 or 4 per pellet or higher to maybe be somewhat useful I think......

Both of those weapons can also be adjusted via their spread, so you can have very high dmg per pellet/missile, just have it spread a lot more , or you have low spread with lower dmg per missile/pellet etc etc....

Edited by Fooooo, 22 February 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

when I actually see you in any game que with anyone decent I might take your word as law roland. That said the versatility the lbx has as far as ranges and differentiation are what make it worth it. You are basically saying simply because the lbx has a spread at larger ranges its worthless, wich simply isnt true.

The bug has nothing to do with people not using SRM. People stopped using them with the advent of the highlander/victor meta. That was the downfall of them.

Except he is a competent player, always has been and is intelligent to go with that.

The LBX is a bad weapon because it spreads damage, the AC 10 is superior for it's pin point damage...it's a well known fact the LBX 10 is poor and has been since forever.

SRM's are used far less since the bug fix, i thought everyone knew this.... combine that with the hit detection and they are off the table competitively compared to their glory days better off taking something that can boat ML's..

[Joseph Mallan]

Don't forget Snarky DV, Roland is pretty Snarky... It's part of his Charm.

LB-X Has been bad in MechWarriror maybe, but on TT since you CAN use solid Slug with Canister shot, it is quite a nice weapon to have. Using the word forever made your statement a faulty generalization.