152 replies to this topic

[CrashieJ]

HammerSwarm, on 19 February 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Roll a dice, on a roll of 6+ your post is valid, on a roll of one you lose all your mechs. I'm in a bad mood so you have a roll modifier of -1. If you understand the sarcasm of this you must have a high Intuition value so you can have a +1.

Roll now to see if your thread gains traction.

See how stupid RNGs are?

Has repeatedly asked PGI to open up testing servers for experimentation: +1 modifier for every rejection (x4),

add +2 initiative for every letter that starts with "we are sorry to inform you" (x3), add +3 damage multiplier for no response (x2), remove an enemy from play every time the word "Sincerely" appears in all emails (x8)

roll twice and take the highest rolled due to actually caring about the game, add another die to the roll if you are trying to keep PGI and the community happy (r4 and r6).

6 * 8 * 10 = 480 damage hit + 6 team initiative

Enemy team defeated by:

[Moromillas]

Mirkk Defwode, on 25 February 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Who said anything about random rolls?

The entire thread is about CoF, which is random rolls... Well done.

Sug, on 25 February 2014 - 12:54 AM, said:

How is a crosshair that expands during movement or rapid fire dumbed down? Go play Quake Live if you're into twitch games.

Hang on my screens all foggy. Please excuse me while I hide behind this chest high wall briefly.

[o0Marduk0o]

In the fluff/lore jumping and landing properly is a difficult task for a mechpilot. So why are we able to shoot with high accuracy while midair? We need no crosshair shake(without any shake when leaving JJ button), we just need an expanding crosshair while jumping with differences between the weight classes.

Modern tanks can shoot while moving with full speed and hit close to where they want to hit, Battlemechs have systems to compensate their movement as well.
Though some minor adjustments to crosshair size while moving for different weight classes would be reasonable, so hitting at long range would be much more difficult and standing still for long range shots would be mandatory.
It should be skill based but a pilot can't do everything and the game should simulate this.

Edited by o0Marduk0o, 25 February 2014 - 01:27 AM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Moromillas, on 25 February 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

The entire thread is about CoF, which is random rolls... Well done.

Cone of fire is not a random roll. It's an expanded strike zone where the projectile may land. The 'random roll' you're referring too might be a seed, but the system works well from other implementations that are not entirely random. And when the examples cited earlier are variances of fractions of a degree making up for a mathematical difference of little distance from where you're aiming. I don't understand your unwillingness to even experiment with the concept.

[Rasc4l]

I wish we would get to test suggestions like this on the test server.

Increasing CoF when moving + working information warfare and MWO would go in my eyes from 75 / 100 to 90-95 / 100.

Then we would really have the thinking mans shooter.

[Moromillas]

Mirkk Defwode, on 25 February 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

Cone of fire is not a random roll.

Then the problem here is simply your ignorance.

[Belorion]

Think about the size of a mech...

Now do you really think that any minor cone of fire will make a difference? They would have you missing by car lengths for any cof to make any difference at all. More over it does not add any realism. There are already fluctuations due to terrain.

[Joseph Mallan]

o0Marduk0o, on 25 February 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

In every ego-shooter your crosshair is getting bigger while moving. Shooting then is random as well. Nobody complains about it.

Moromillas, on 25 February 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

That's because every game like CoD has been dumbed right down to cater to all the college dude bros. I complain about that watered down piss every chance I get.

However as a Former Paid Pro... What Marduk is saying makes sense. If I am running full out Arms gotta move, Divits are unnoticed, You pay attention to aiming you aren't paying attention to Surroundings. And these are bipedal war machines, they don't work like a Tank They work like a Giant soldier in armor.

[Appogee]

Anything that reduces the influence of pilot skill is a bad idea.

By all means, we should make it harder to hit with accuracy at distance ...
* fix magic convergence
* increase reticle shake while moving and especially while jumping
* convert damage delivery of large calibre weapons from a narrow pinpoint to a slightly more dispersed area of damage, so that a non-centered shot perhaps splashes a little onto the closest adjacent component.
* give Gauss a bit more bullet drop
* etc

But don't randomize weapon accuracy in any way. The difference between successful pilots should be how skilled they are at landing shots, not whether their random seed resulted in a shot that tracked closer to the center of where they aimed, vs someone elses.

Edited by Appogee, 25 February 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Not the damage. It is a method to limit boating and to change the way players build their mechs. Having 4-6 PPC/LL in a mech and shooting them the same time is no Battletech.

That's kinda funny.

"CGR-SB -This radical modification looks to turn the Charger into a traditional assault 'Mech by reducing the 'Mechs speed to 54 km/h, which allows the use of a smaller engine (incidentally, the commonplace Pitban 240 reactor). The 'Mech is armored with fifteen and a half tons of armor and is armed with four Large Lasers and a Medium Laser, kept cool by twenty-eight heat sinks."

and

"AWS-9Q -A basic upgrade introduced in 3057^[7] for the 8Q and 9M Awesome, the heat sinks are upgraded to double heat sinks and are reduced to nineteen. The saved weight is used to add a fourth PPC to the 'Mech as well as a Guardian ECM Suite."

Look at that. A 3025-era quad LL and 3050-era canonical quad PPC design, both built to handle firing them within reasonable levels of overheat all at once. Really,you actually get excessive after 40 or so heat in energy weapons- unless you're Clantech, in which case you're talking more like 60. So it's overkill around 5 LL/PPC mounts, but 4 should just be pushing heat management, not overwhelming it.

[o0Marduk0o]

The problem is that the game isn't simulating a "real" pilot. Mechs are driven by god-like humans, who hit their targets where they want to, at all distances, while running at high speed or jumping.

wanderer, on 25 February 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

That's kinda funny.

Spoiler

"CGR-SB -This radical modification looks to turn the Charger into a traditional assault 'Mech by reducing the 'Mechs speed to 54 km/h, which allows the use of a smaller engine (incidentally, the commonplace Pitban 240 reactor). The 'Mech is armored with fifteen and a half tons of armor and is armed with four Large Lasers and a Medium Laser, kept cool by twenty-eight heat sinks."

and

"AWS-9Q -A basic upgrade introduced in 3057^[7] for the 8Q and 9M Awesome, the heat sinks are upgraded to double heat sinks and are reduced to nineteen. The saved weight is used to add a fourth PPC to the 'Mech as well as a Guardian ECM Suite."

Look at that. A 3025-era quad LL and 3050-era canonical quad PPC design, both built to handle firing them within reasonable levels of overheat all at once. Really,you actually get excessive after 40 or so heat in energy weapons- unless you're Clantech, in which case you're talking more like 60. So it's overkill around 5 LL/PPC mounts, but 4 should just be pushing heat management, not overwhelming it.

They can't and won't fire all their 4 PPC/LL at once and this is the only issue here. The builds are totally fine itself.

[DEN_Ninja]

Let's summarize this thread;

TT Purists, not a bad train of thought, want the addition of CoF RNG mechanics in place of Ghost Heat because it is their believe it is less intrusive than Ghost Heat in itself. It also keeps in accordance to many of the TT modifiers that are applied in combat.

Sadly, I don't agree with this.

CoF is just as intrusive as Ghost Heat. Especially with the suggested 'Modifiers'. The moment that you take practical skill and marginalize you fail. As much as I hate Autocannon precision I want my shots to go exactly where I aim them.

While I have no ideas on how to fix PPC's I have a fairer solution that is a compromise between both sides.

Why not allow the 'pinpoint accuracy' of an autocannon end at their Optimal Range.

Each Class of Autocannons will fire and travel with precision up until their optimal range. From there the original CoF which was rather small will expand at a higher rate.



Tada, terrible MS Paint diagram. Yellow is CoF of Optimal Range, Very minimal until it reaches beyond Optimal. Red is the extended range that is a much wider arc.

If you want to add your bloody modifiers you can increase the CoF while moving but make it so the yellow CoF does not increase greatly while making the Red Increase greatly.


What this does is help separate the classes of Autocannons by True effective ranges. No more firing an AC/5 at the Optimal Range of an AC/2 and actually hit something while doing a slight more damage.

oh and bring down the Optimal Range of an AC/5 Down to 600m.
=====================
Gauss Rifle;

Keep the Charge Up. Have No cone of fire. It is a freaking Magnetic Cannon. It travels so fast that there is no reason for it to have a CoF that can throw it off greatly. However the Gauss Rifle Charge Up allows for it to be balanced because having to time the shot and adjust.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 25 February 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[Sybreed]

ShadowbaneX, on 24 February 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

I did before RO. If they put DoD's CoF system then I quit MWO as an AC/5 doing damage from one mech would do a different amount of damage in another mech; see: Garand, Springfield, BAR & .30 cal MG; K98, G43 & MGs 34 & 42, etc, etc.

I'm sorry, where did i mention using different weapon values?

[UnHolyLegion]

Tichorius Davion, on 25 February 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

Let's summarize this thread;

TT Purists, not a bad train of thought, want the addition of CoF RNG mechanics in place of Ghost Heat because it is their believe it is less intrusive than Ghost Heat in itself. It also keeps in accordance to many of the TT modifiers that are applied in combat.

Sadly, I don't agree with this.

CoF is just as intrusive as Ghost Heat. Especially with the suggested 'Modifiers'. The moment that you take practical skill and marginalize you fail. As much as I hate Autocannon precision I want my shots to go exactly where I aim them.

While I have no ideas on how to fix PPC's I have a fairer solution that is a compromise between both sides.

Why not allow the 'pinpoint accuracy' of an autocannon end at their Optimal Range.

Each Class of Autocannons will fire and travel with precision up until their optimal range. From there the original CoF which was rather small will expand at a higher rate.



Tada, terrible MS Paint diagram. Yellow is CoF of Optimal Range, Very minimal until it reaches beyond Optimal. Red is the extended range that is a much wider arc.

If you want to add your bloody modifiers you can increase the CoF while moving but make it so the yellow CoF does not increase greatly while making the Red Increase greatly.


What this does is help separate the classes of Autocannons by True effective ranges. No more firing an AC/5 at the Optimal Range of an AC/2 and actually hit something while doing a slight more damage.

oh and bring down the Optimal Range of an AC/5 Down to 600m.
=====================
Gauss Rifle;

Keep the Charge Up. Have No cone of fire. It is a freaking Magnetic Cannon. It travels so fast that there is no reason for it to have a CoF that can throw it off greatly. However the Gauss Rifle Charge Up allows for it to be balanced because having to time the shot and adjust.

^^ this

on a side note, why not introduce charge up for PPC's like in Mech Assault?? OOOO the tears of the poptart fanboys will be plentiful lol

Edited by UnHolyLegion, 25 February 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

Not the damage. It is a method to limit boating and to change the way players build their mechs. Having 4-6 PPC/LL in a mech and shooting them the same time is no Battletech.

Warhawk (Prime)
In its primary configuration, the Warhawk had an impressive arsenal of long range weapons which were centered around four ER PPCs that took advantage of the 'Mech’s Targeting Computer.

Supernova
The Supernova's only armaments are six Clan ER Large Lasers.

Just two off the top. If boating is bad, Clans are pure evil!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 February 2014 - 06:50 AM.

[UnHolyLegion]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Warhawk (Prime)
In its primary configuration, the Warhawk had an impressive arsenal of long range weapons which were centered around four ER PPCs that took advantage of the 'Mech’s Targeting Computer.

Supernova
The Supernova's only armaments are six Clan ER Large Lasers.

Just two off the top. If boating is bad, Clans are pure evil!

probably the reason why the warhawk is only included in the most expensive package lol

[Joseph Mallan]

UnHolyLegion, on 25 February 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

probably the reason why the warhawk is only included in the most expensive package lol

Ok for a lil less money...

Dire Wolf (Prime)
The primary long range weapons are four ER Large Lasers which give the Dire Wolf an impressive long range punch.
And of course if you think it is only Assaults having fun 12 medium lasers n a Nova (Prime)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 February 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Tichorius Davion, on 25 February 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

Let's summarize this thread;

TT Purists, not a bad train of thought, want the addition of CoF RNG mechanics in place of Ghost Heat because it is their believe it is less intrusive than Ghost Heat in itself. It also keeps in accordance to many of the TT modifiers that are applied in combat.

Sadly, I don't agree with this.

CoF is just as intrusive as Ghost Heat. Especially with the suggested 'Modifiers'. The moment that you take practical skill and marginalize you fail. As much as I hate Autocannon precision I want my shots to go exactly where I aim them.

While I have no ideas on how to fix PPC's I have a fairer solution that is a compromise between both sides.

Why not allow the 'pinpoint accuracy' of an autocannon end at their Optimal Range.

Each Class of Autocannons will fire and travel with precision up until their optimal range. From there the original CoF which was rather small will expand at a higher rate.



Tada, terrible MS Paint diagram. Yellow is CoF of Optimal Range, Very minimal until it reaches beyond Optimal. Red is the extended range that is a much wider arc.

If you want to add your bloody modifiers you can increase the CoF while moving but make it so the yellow CoF does not increase greatly while making the Red Increase greatly.


What this does is help separate the classes of Autocannons by True effective ranges. No more firing an AC/5 at the Optimal Range of an AC/2 and actually hit something while doing a slight more damage.

oh and bring down the Optimal Range of an AC/5 Down to 600m.
=====================
Gauss Rifle;

Keep the Charge Up. Have No cone of fire. It is a freaking Magnetic Cannon. It travels so fast that there is no reason for it to have a CoF that can throw it off greatly. However the Gauss Rifle Charge Up allows for it to be balanced because having to time the shot and adjust.

You're thinking about it wrong, based on that diagram. Think about it from a targeting perspective, your targeting computer can micro-adjust certain weapons and certain ranges well... but only if you're receiving good and complete targeting information. Outside of that limitation your mech is having a hard time lining up all those barely mobile weapons in it's torso by just flexing it's steely pecks.

[Fut]

Moromillas, on 19 February 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Because putting cone of fire on a sniper weapon would render it defunct, as their intended purpose is for long range.

So you think that somebody should be able to run full speed and fire a "Sniper" weapon with perfect accuracy then? How is this logical?

The suggestion is to have the cone "open" when people are in a situation where their accuracy would be compromised (ie. while running, twisting, receiving damage...etc). If you slow your Mech, and take a moment to aim, the cone would "close" and your shots would be as accurate as they are today (pixel perfect).

[Sybreed]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Ok for a lil less money...

Dire Wolf (Prime)
The primary long range weapons are four ER Large Lasers which give the Dire Wolf an impressive long range punch.
And of course if you think it is only Assaults having fun 12 medium lasers n a Nova (Prime)

I honestly don't mind if a few specialized mechs can use such weaponry. . But all mechs being able to field the same thing feels wrong. .. kills role warfare imo