152 replies to this topic

[Moromillas]

Mirkk Defwode, on 25 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Wall of previous posts.

All those posts were replies to other posts. It might not be that easy to see the context in that way, I can see a couple of strawman here and there.

In short:

Mirkk Defwode, on 25 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Muh realism!

No. It's not a training simulator, it's a video game, where it's supposed to be entertaining and fantastic, not realistic. Realism needs to get the hell out of my video games.

Mirkk Defwode, on 25 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Mechwarrior is Battletech ... to attempt parody.

MechWarrior is the video game, while BattleTech is the tabletop. Adding CoF isn't a parody, or following the lore, it's a blatant emulation of tabletop mechanics. Mechanics that just don't translate well to video games.

Mirkk Defwode, on 25 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

I'm curious though where does that scathing dislike for this mechanic come from?

Implying.

Edited by Moromillas, 26 February 2014 - 02:21 AM.

[Reitrix]

p4r4g0n, on 25 February 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

^^ but I'd prefer the variance in the amount of shake to be tied to speed rather than throttle and modified by the weight of the mech so that a light at half-speed has the same amount of shake as an assault at half speed. Further, the definition of max speed for a mech should be based on the max installable engine size rather than currently installed engine.



Which would bring us back to CoF if correct?

For motion sick people, it'd be easy to have an option to lock the reticle in place, with shaking behind the scenes. For those people, it'd be like CoF, but they can compensate for it if they take the time to learn how much the shake affects things and adjust shots accordingly.

As for using top speed, I'm against that, especially in a 'mech that has Arm Actuators. The gyros and actuators in all 'Mechs would work to keep the stability similar across weight ranges. 'Mechs like the CN9-D, Boars head, AWS-9M with large engine capacity, do not always use that max engine. the Cent cannot even mount a STD385, being that the Engine weighs more than the entirety of the Centurion. The Xl385 is a crazy fun Light wannabe, but can't take good firepower so isn't often used.

Setting it to Throttle would give an easy balance marker to adjust on an overall level, and then making minor adjustments inside each weight range if its required, without unjustly punishing specific 'Mechs with large engine capacity.

EDIT: Forgot to argue your final statement. No, the shake isn't like CoF at all, with a CoF you have no control over where your shots land while the reticle is expanded. With a shake or sway mechanic, with good marksmanship you can overcome the negative effects of the reticle movement, by watching the reticle and taking your shot at the right moment.
This would allow highly skilled players to make accurate shots at full throttle. Average players would have to slow down to achieve the same accuracy, giving those players incentive to improve.

Edited by Reitrix, 25 February 2014 - 11:15 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Edit: Should have thought this through fully before replying.

The reason I suggested max installable engine was that it would be too easy to game the mechanics by just using a lower rated engine (within reason). Also, if the shake is tied to throttle there are instances when throttle =\= actual movement / speed. It would be possible to address your point by having hard limits based on practical engine sizes but this would create loopholes which could potentially be exploitable.

Using the throttle is a somewhat indeterministic method of determining amount of shake as a mech using a 200 rated engine going at X speed at full throttle will have the same amount of shake as a the same mech using a 300 rated engine going at Y speed at full throttle.

I understand the point about actuators and gyros but it is possible to that they are only able to compensate for motion up to a certain speed? Otherwise, why would you have any shake at all and how does the throttle setting affect the gyros and actuators ability to dampen out the shake?

How about if no shake occurs below a certain threshold of speed e.g. say 20% of max speed and it gets progressively worse from there? Also, no / less dampening of shake for mechs that do not have arm actuators?

On the motion sickness issue, I meant that if shake does induce it, that would seem to bring us back to CoF as the possible solution although but I note that you have raise a possible solution. Can't really comment on it though as I'm not readily susceptible to motion sickness.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 26 February 2014 - 04:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

WarHippy, on 25 February 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Joseph came up with idea awhile back, and he may have posted it in here as well (haven't read everything) that I really liked. Basically when firing individual weapons they are accurate however, when you fire more than one you start to have a cone of fire effect with more and more weapons the bigger the cone. This does a couple of things that make the game a little more interesting at least for me. First, you still have the ability to snipe accurately but the damage is lowered because you are limited to one weapon in order to have that accuracy, which in turn means other play styles have a chance like people having a better chance of being able to close distance to brawl without being obliterated right away. The second things this does is give the targeting computer and pin-point talent a reason to exist in this game by allowing it to lower the effect of the cone of fire when firing multiple weapons. Instead of a useless item like command console the targeting computer would at least have a place.

Thanks for the credit Hippy but it was DocBachs Idea, I just plagiarized it!

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

Thanks for the credit Hippy but it was DocBachs Idea, I just plagiarized it!

Well either way it was a good idea and I hope it catches on.

[Lightfoot]

Cone of Fire. We have this on LBX, SRMs, Pulse Lasers, AC2 through AC5 and UAC5, MG's. All these weapons are anti-Light mech weapons because they never miss even the best Light mech pilot due to the natural cone of fire. If you enabled a Cone of Fire for all weapons all I would need to do is fire off 4 to 5 Medium Lasers in the general location of a Light mech to get a hit with 3 or more of them on every salvo. In no time I would have it legged and cored. Right now all those lasers go to a single point and usually miss. If they didn't usually miss the Light mech would be killed in two salvos, and that's not what happens.

I see all these requests to do away with point damage weapons as either misinformed or seeking to make all weapons work like dakka-dakka gun loadouts.

At the same time that everyone complained about the Gauss Rifle, demanding that silly nerf PGI pulled out of Duke Nukem, the most common Ballistic being used was the AC2 in a 4x to 5xAC2 array. What weapon do you use to counter an AC2 array? A Gauss Rifle and maybe some PPCs. The AC2's do almost 3xDPS per ton of the Gauss Rifle dps/ton, but they can't quite match the alpha of the Gauss and PPCs, although it's close. Had to be the one countering annoyance for an AC2 array mech.

Just commenting on why nerf requests are made and why not all should be granted.

Edited by Lightfoot, 26 February 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Reitrix, on 25 February 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

....

As for using top speed, I'm against that, especially in a 'mech that has Arm Actuators. The gyros and actuators in all 'Mechs would work to keep the stability similar across weight ranges. 'Mechs like the CN9-D, Boars head, AWS-9M with large engine capacity, do not always use that max engine. the Cent cannot even mount a STD385, being that the Engine weighs more than the entirety of the Centurion. The Xl385 is a crazy fun Light wannabe, but can't take good firepower so isn't often used.

Setting it to Throttle would give an easy balance marker to adjust on an overall level, and then making minor adjustments inside each weight range if its required, without unjustly punishing specific 'Mechs with large engine capacity.

EDIT: Forgot to argue your final statement. No, the shake isn't like CoF at all, with a CoF you have no control over where your shots land while the reticle is expanded. With a shake or sway mechanic, with good marksmanship you can overcome the negative effects of the reticle movement, by watching the reticle and taking your shot at the right moment.
This would allow highly skilled players to make accurate shots at full throttle. Average players would have to slow down to achieve the same accuracy, giving those players incentive to improve.

I made this as a similar suggestion, but the shake does have issues for motion sickness unless they severely slowed the animation down it might prove problematic for some users.

I'm not against the idea though of just having the reticle move around giving a bit more control without adding the added cone to all weapons.

Another solution I thought was good was just having a cone of fire applied for the more weapons fired at the same time. This way some weapons will hit on the target and the others will spread out dispersing damage across the entire mech. This gives some advantage to macro users as they can game the system with a rapid sequenced fire to achieve a near alpha strike but it'd also allow people to manually be precise if they wanted to.

I'd just apply the code for that to have 'X' weapons fired within 'X' Period of time = X% cone of fire increase. Though this solution also has issues unto itself for scalability and encouraging boating heavy high impact weaponry like PPC, Gauss and AC20's

Many solutions have their merits and their issues.

[GreyGriffin]

If we want to get all in-universe about it, throttle determines how hard your 'mech is working, how much it is pumping its legs, twisting its hips, and otherwise straining to achieve high speed. A jenner is in an easy gliding trot at 60 kph while an Atlas is in a lumbering fat man run. That's why throttle position is appropriate in-universe.

It also spreads the burden of a cone of fire throughout the classes equally. A high speed 'mech will suffer enormously if CoF only becomes a problem at 90 kph, while a stock Atlas will never see the effects.

There could definitely be a cross-section of impact, where speed and throttle position influence it, but I don't think it should be based solely on ground speed.

[wanderer]

o0Marduk0o, on 25 February 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

They can't and won't fire all their 4 PPC/LL at once and this is the only issue here. The builds are totally fine itself.

Trust me, you're firing those quad LL's all at once. Heck, my team rode one of those to a Mid-Atlantic tournament victory back when FASA/Mechforce was running ranked tournament play. Likewise, the 38/turn heat sinkage on the 9Q was plenty for firing the quad PPC mount- more often than the -SB's quad laser mount, but of course it's a 3050 era mod vs a 3025 standard - all at once, repeatedly.

Like I've said before, about 30ish points of heat was the line for full salvos in 3025, and that moves up to 40ish with 3050-tech DHS, and can push all the way to -60- or so for Clan DHS-equipped designs, the nightmare fuel edition of which is the Hellstar, aka a Masakari/Warhawk on crack.

[Mathmatics]

Moromillas, on 19 February 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

A lot of those suggestions are for curbing heavy alpha strike builds, yet they already implemented a mechanic to balance that, ghost heat. Is ghost heat not doing its job? Maybe an increase on the amount of ghost heat.

I still think they should have buffed internals when they buffed armor.

I have another idea to spread damage.

Lasers, they're designed to be damage over time. To dish out the entirety of a lasers damage, requires you to hold it on a specific point, so IF you want pinpoint damage to a location, it's very difficult to do.

Ok, why not a similar mechanic for ballistics? At the moment, you fire an AC10, and it shoots out 1 round that deals 10 damage. If instead, it fired 10 shots in increments that did 1 damage each, you'd see some damage spread. For example, you fire an AC10, and it finishes firing 10 rounds after 0.5 seconds (maybe 1 second?), and with each hit, it deals 1 damage. It might look better too.

I love this idea, it would look freaking awesome too.

[Liquid Leopard]

Gideon Grey, on 19 February 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

Is there really any doubt that the biggest balance issue around is massive pinpoint strikes?

I think they should do away with convergence and just have all the weapons fire in parallel.
Or, do like in WWII fighter planes: Have the weapons converge at a fixed distance. The player can adjust the converging distance in the mech lab, but it's fixed once the match starts.

It seems to me that would take a lot less real-time calculations than convergence, the game would probably run more smoothly, and we might even have less issues with server lag and hit registration.

But, PGI will never do it. They're apparently quite proud of the convergence mechanic that nobody asked for.
...And the half-baked Elo system that puts first-time players in the same match with average players.
...And the new User Interface that's a total cluster flop and is driving away long-time players.
...And the Clan mechs that aren't far enough along to appear in the video promoting them.

[Dark Jackal]

I would not mind COF so much if it is done in a manner that makes sense. For example, COF for 'Mechs with only Upper Arm Actuators versus those with Lower Arm Actuators should not behave the same way. There should be some sort of compensatory effort for taking an extra slot on a 'Mech Chassis as the game uses Table Top build rules. A suggestion could be is COF difference where it takes LESS time to line up a shot with 'Mechs with Lower Arm Actuators than it does compared to 'Mechs with only Upper Arm Actuators. If you consider 'Mechs technically have a targeting computer the pilot is supposed to be interacting with, there is still a consideration of 'Mech's targeting adjustment to make a shot possible.

Some Speed factors could be implemented implementing COF relating to "Stand Still", "Walk", "Run", and "Jump Jet" movement. Also, Weapon Group COF adjustments should calculate longer if multiple weapons from many locations are centered into a shot compared to Weapons Group in a single location (i.e. one arm only).

There is currently no real feeling that the pilot that punches the startup sequence in the game ACTUALLY uses a targeting computer! It still mainly feels like in many ways a FPS and in some cases easier to hit things considering the near total lack of interactive environment within the cockpit to suggest the character is actually piloting the 'Mech. I had hoped the original demonstration of the game where the pilot ejects would have been incorporated but the current pilot/cockpit environment still feels a bit gamey and too similiar to ye old MW4.

[Tsohg]

First thing first you can't use "cone of fire" stuff as long as friendly fire is in use. Cause if you fire in the general direction of an ennemy then boom, he's hit... well one of your friends was in the way but who cares...

Then, what about the point that's touched? It'd be decided at random? Should we have a general health bar of some sorts? Nah, not going to happen, that's so not the way MWO is built for now.

I hate those mechanisms you ask for anyway. If you don't know how to aim (i'm not really good at this) just stick with your "average" lasers and/or machineguns and use'em as "swords" of course you won't inflict as much damage as a well aimed shot and would have to pay attention to your teammates. Or stick with LRM/Streak SRM (well maybe any missiles, dunno, didn't played much with SRMs yet) they're ways to easilly hit your opponments without much aiming skills.