214 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

The MPL isn't so much hotter than the Md Laser. At 5 heat, versus, 4, it is only 25% hotter but easily handled with adequate heat sinks. What really hurts the pulse laser family as a whole is the combination of slightly higher heat and faster recycle time. The faster your weapons are readily available, the more apt you are to use them. In this case, you're generating 5 heat every 3.15s (with efficiences) on the MPL vs. 4 heat every 3.55s (with efficiencies). That means 1.59 HPS vs. 1.13 HPS. If the average mech carries 4 Mediums, the MPL will mean that you're generating an additional 1.84 heat every time you pull the trigger. In the end, you've spent 4 extra tons for the pulse "benefits" along with another two tons for the extra double heat sinks needed to kill the heat just to squeeze out 4 points of added damage. Is 6 tons worth it? It's like I said earlier in regards to the LPL, is 7 tons investment worth it when you're getting 2 tons worth of output (1 LPL equals 2 Md Lasers in damage and heat)?

[Varent]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 February 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

So, did people try out the new pulse lasers?

Better range for the medium and large pulse laser, and the large pulse laser also got a bit more heat efficient. Did it make a difference?

I think the pulse laser needs to function how it was described in more of the books. Small pulses that do less damage overall but also take up much less heat. This would allow them to be more of a dps weapon in wich you are rewarded for holding them on target. On brawling and flanking builds this would make them quite good.

I always imagined pulses lasers as the laser machine gun myself. I totally admit I have a stiffy for machine guns though so this could be a totally biased statement.

Noesis, on 19 February 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

WIP

I still feel the changes for PLas isn't enough to really help with real confidence for the short game. It was however more of a change even if subtle for larger platforms which only helps to maintain the idea of people using larger Mechs also. In fact these changes (with 20m to MPL) offered very little support to help with Medium/Lighter Mech use and the more shorter roles they can perform as a result.

Need more "aggressive" changes to these weapons to enable them to be used and also some appreciation to incentivising shorter game play roles. Especially more so for Medium/Lighter Mechs where the dependency on the ML, MPL as more of a primary/secondary weapon than a back up weapon is more significant.

Ideally less heat across the board for PLas, ML and making the value 3 for the Large Laser group before Ghost heat is applied to them. This will at least make them more sustainable for their all ready lack of effectiveness in comparison to ballistics with applied beam mechanics. This so they can then at least compete a little bit better with longevity as ballistics even if the range, DPS, FLD, pinpoint benefits of these weapons will sustain their use.

I disagree based on the ideal that I think there is a pretty well established rock paper scissors in weight class that could be disrupted by two much focus on mediums and small lasers.

That said overall pulse lasers do need work. It is however nice to see they are working on more subtle changes like this then large major ones. Subtle changes can always be added to and dont disrupt the game overall to much.

[Noesis]

Varent, on 20 February 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I disagree based on the ideal that I think there is a pretty well established rock paper scissors in weight class that could be disrupted by two much focus on mediums and small lasers.

I don't even know what the above nonsense means. And I contest any "well established" idea when these weapons have been recognised with their applied potential as under performing in comparison with other weapons. Check your own compiled balance thread for contributions supporting this evidence.

MWO weapon use is not logical it is relative also, so I don't support your rock, paper, scissors methodology to balancing weapons. These distinctions are only useful to understand how best to apply them with role use. But their use still has relative applications based on their "numerical" and quantitative characteristics using other values than 1 and 0.

In the current ranged Meta an increase of 20M to MPL range is not even needed as it is designed as a brawling weapon so ideally you would be best operating at shorter ranges anyhow. This current change to MPL did practically nothing in terms of "usefulness" for them.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 20 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

I don't even know what the above nonsense means. And I contest any "well established" idea when these weapons have been recognised with their applied potential as under performing in comparison with other weapons. Check your own compiled balance thread for contributions supporting this evidence.

MWO weapon use is not logical it is relative also, so I don't support your rock, paper, scissors methodology to balancing weapons. These distinctions are only useful to understand how best to apply them with role use. But their use still has relative applications based on their "numerical" and quantitative characteristics using other values than 1 and 0.

In the current ranged Meta an increase of 20M to MPL range is not even needed as it is designed as a brawling weapon so ideally you would be best operating at shorter ranges anyhow. This current change to MPL did practically nothing in terms of "usefulness" for them.

Sorry I thought we had discussed that earlier on another forum (Im actually pretty positive we have in many ot the threads you listed). So I will explain the concept of the rock paper scissors methodology once again.

Currently in the system we have in mwo. There is a rock paper scissors among the mechs wich holds true with a few specific exceptions.

Keep in mind this is based off a one for one mech basis. Lance tactics make much of this go out the door on many levels.

Light mechs > Assault mechs and contest Heavy Mechs. The are Beaten by Medium mechs.
Assault Mechs > Heavy mechs and contest Medium Mechs. They are beaten by Light mechs.
Heavy mechs > Medium mechs and contest Light Mechs. They are beaten by Assault Mechs.
Medium mechs > Light Mechs and contest Assault mechs. They are beaten by Heavy mechs.

The reasons for this come down to weapon base + Armor + Maneuverability.

Light mechs are simply incredibly maneuverable and cant take advantage of the slow speed and twist motions of the assault class to hamper them, get in close and rip them apart while the assaults simply cant defend themselves properly. This amount of maneuverability differential becomes less of an issue when it comes to heavy mechs who often have just enough maneuverability that they can lend enough blows to end a fight, Still its usually a good fight. Now most mediums are highly agile mechs and many of them are capable and often run weapon systems that are very good at fighting medium mechs. ie - streaks, lasers, ac10-20. They are ideal for fighting lights with there larger amounts of armor and the ability to keep pace with them.

Medium mechs as mentioned above are ideal light killers since they have a fine balance of speed, maneuverability, armor and weapon systems that makes them ideal for fighting these speedy mechs. However there lack of resoulte firepower and armor becomes heavily apparent when matched against a heavy mech. Most heavies are fast enough that the maneuverability a medium can offer simply isnt enough to matter in a fight while mounting more armor and firepower. They counter mediums easily. Often however a medium mech has enough mobility to give an assault mech a run for its money provided it can use its mobility wisely to try and stay out of weapons arc. It will usually be a good fight between well matched pilots.

Heavy mechs are the steriotypical bruiser and obviously simply out match medium mechs. There raw strength will overcome the smaller mech and there advanced firepower simply will punish the smaller chasis. However when it comes down to fighting an assault the same rule applies and they will usually suffer to simply more well mounted firepower, and more armor with maneuverability not even being a factor. That said in regards to maneuverability many heavies have JUST enough that they can often fight a light mech, at least better then an assault can and have a chance to come out on top if they play it well. It will be a good fight either way.

Assault mechs are natural tanks. They crush heavy mechs simply by numerical advantage while mobility isnt usually a factor at all in these fights. However due to there lack of mobility they also do tend to suffer a little against medium mechs who can pester them and often have just enough speed to stay out of a good weapon arc where they can bring everything to bear. This is usually a tight fight with equally matched pilots. This is however though why they suffer versus a light mech who simply has too much speed and maneuverability for them to react and fight. This is especially true since many assault mechs tend to mount weapons that just arent good for fighting lights. ie - ppc, lrm, uac5, ac5. Large lasers, SRM. The light mech usually will tend to get behind the assault and ismply core them, or take out there legs.

=============================

now in regards to this and the changes to pulse laser. I disagree with a change focused on light pulse lasers since this is really a change that would only aid light mechs and could throw off this balance. If you were however to focus changes across the board or focus changes on medium and large pulse lasers then you would make an effect that would aid all classes equally. Currently the only class that uses Small pulse are lights. This is at least unless I misunderstood your suggestion. In wich case I apologize.

[Noesis]

None of what you have suggested has any real bearing on a universally applied weapon or that you also completely fail to recognise the meaning of under performing with comparative potential in differing weapon use as an applied process.

Again I will re-iterate that your rock, paper, scissors analogy you like to categorize Mechs into is only a helpful way of trying to best understand how to apply different Mechs in their roles but I don't identify with all of these limitations as a prescriptive process. But the characteristics of the tech they use still have relative characteristics in terms of their use. So I don't put any stock into using it as a useful way to balance weapons.

Nor do I believe that a small down turn in heat to MLs / MPLs would be in any way detrimental to the roles as you describe them as all it does it helps with a small improvement to longevity with their use in a nerfed dissipation system more concerned with ALPHA values anyhow with bigger weaponry and at much greater range. This in a game that does not really have a short game presence that can be used with confidence as per other roles. So even your definitions have relative effective use as to how best to apply them, where some Meta is simply considered as much better choice anyhow.

[Varent]

The reasons I broke the mechs down was based also off of the weapons they use. As I said, Im not exactly disagreeing with you and I do feel a downturn in heat would be a good thing in pulse lasers as long as its done across the board to all of them. I actually am happy to see they are doing little tweaks the way they are right now. My only disagreement was from my belief that you wanted the focus to be more on the medium and lighter mechs.

I sort of actually felt the changes DID in fact push towards more all around balancing since light mechs can use mediums pulse lasers.

I think that if they do changes the changes should be focused on bringing all mechs up equally to continue the balance between the chasis.

[Zyllos]

Pulse lasers have two heat related drawbacks, tonnage and actual heat generated. For each ton a weapon weighs, that is one less heatsink that can possibly be installed.

This is why I think the drawback of pulse lasers should be tonnage and distance but with the benefits of damage and accuracy helping mechanic. But actual heat difference should not be one of them.

[Osric Lancaster]

Pjwned, on 19 February 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

They've already messed with weapon ranges & armor, drastically changed how the heat system works, and have stated that clan tech will not be grossly OP (rightly so) like it is in canon and I'm pretty sure there's other things as well.
...
You don't even have an actual argument aside from "B-B-B-BUT I-IT'S CANON!!!!"

1 - If you had read my post before committing this knee-jerk response to the forums you might notice that I said I'm fine with them changing basically any aspect of a canonical weapon except ones that would invalidate stock load outs. Namely, a weapon's weight or critical size.

Pjwned, on 19 February 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

I see no real reason to care about canon when said weapon values make a weapon system persistently bad in a game that's pretty much far and away as different as you can possibly get from tabletop and any other video game title.

2 - Medium and light lasers and pulse lasers would be vastly improved by using canonical values in MWO. They are not limited by the tabletop values they are limited by PGI's implementation.

Pjwned, on 19 February 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

I understand wanting more weapon systems instead, but even if they put in a new energy weapon system that would essentially replace large pulse lasers, that would still mean leaving a lackluster weapon system in and that makes no real sense in a game where things are supposed to be more balanced and all the various technologies are supposed to be more or less viable.

3 - I've also been talking about increasing the viability of medium pulse lasers a lot in this thread.

4 - A light PPC is not a direct equivalent to a pulse laser. It's a 3 ton 5 damage PPC. It's got a minimum range and it's not a hit-scan weapon.

5 - Are you okay, buddy? You're being borderline hostile towards me and it's frankly inexplicable.

[Roland]

Varent, on 20 February 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Light mechs > Assault mechs and contest Heavy Mechs. The are Beaten by Medium mechs.
Medium mechs > Light Mechs and contest Assault mechs. They are beaten by Heavy mechs.

Dude, what color is the sky in your world?

Medium mechs don't "contest assault mechs". They die almost instantly to assault mechs. They're like slow, huge, light mechs.

And they don't beat light mechs either, because they only carry slightly more firepower, and their slight armor bonuses are negated by the fact that they are slow and huge compared to the lights.

If medium mechs are killing light mechs and it's even CLOSE in a fight against an assault mech, it means the pilots of those other mechs are pretty much terrible.

[Death Mallet]

Pulse lasers ought to have the same range as regular lasers.

They should pay a penalty only in heat & tonnage. Not all 3.

Buff their range to standard laser range, and they'll be good as-is.

[Iskareot]

Its funny what you guys see as a Buff I see as a adjustment. They are not by all means now OP AND THE END OF THE WORLD IS COMING due to them.

Reduce the heat and rearm time and then we can talk of buff.

[MustrumRidcully]

One thing to always consider about the pulse laser - the original stats came in a system where these weapons also had a +2 bonus to bonus to hit, in a system where you rolled 2d6 to determine.

A +2 bonus can be really, really powerful in a 2d6 based system. That's why it had a hefty range decrease and a decent weight increase, and it still dealt a bit more damage than the LL. A 50 % reduction in duration might simply not be the equivalent in overall power of the weapon (which is defined by additional factors beyond the beam duration) compared to the 2 points in a 2d6 dice roll system.

I think an interesting take on the pulse lasers could be if they were hit-scan with no durations, but a much faster recycle rate (more similar to the LPL).
That doesn't mean it's the best approach, of course.

Another way to look at balancing it is:
Let'S say the Large Laser is fine. The LPL is 2 tons heavier. So start with the values of the Large Laser.
Raise the weight by 2 tons and lower the range by 90m (180m max). Now what do you give it to be fair for that? How about lowering the beam duration to 0.5 (remember, we started with the LL now) to compensate for the range difference and lowering the heat per shot by approximately 1.5 points to account for the extra weight (which on an LL using build could be spend on DHS.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 21 February 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Deathlike]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 February 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Another way to look at balancing it is:
Let'S say the Large Laser is fine. The LPL is 2 tons heavier. So start with the values of the Large Laser.
Raise the weight by 2 tons and lower the range by 90m (180m max). Now what do you give it to be fair for that? How about lowering the beam duration to 0.5 (remember, we started with the LL now) to compensate for the range difference and lowering the heat per shot by approximately 1.5 points to account for the extra weight (which on an LL using build could be spend on DHS.)

Have you read this?
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3164787

Reducing beam duration across the board (mostly), and halving them for pulse lasers will immediately provide more "tangible" benefits to more quicker focused damage and yet not be instant/pinpoint.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 February 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[Slashmckill]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 February 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

One thing to always consider about the pulse laser - the original stats came in a system where these weapons also had a +2 bonus to bonus to hit, in a system where you rolled 2d6 to determine.

A +2 bonus can be really, really powerful in a 2d6 based system. That's why it had a hefty range decrease and a decent weight increase, and it still dealt a bit more damage than the LL. A 50 % reduction in duration might simply not be the equivalent in overall power of the weapon (which is defined by additional factors beyond the beam duration) compared to the 2 points in a 2d6 dice roll system.

A +2 to hit is kinda hard to translate in a game where all your lasers hit 90% of the time regardless of mech speed, range and pilot skill. (It did equate to more damage though) It only did a little extra dmg compared to the normal large laser, but it hit more frequently and therefore did more dmg on average than a large laser. Increasing the damage another point or two could help emphisize that +2 modifier better. (Pulses need more reward for all of their restrictions)

MustrumRidcully, on 21 February 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

I think an interesting take on the pulse lasers could be if they were hit-scan with no durations, but a much faster recycle rate (more similar to the LPL).
That doesn't mean it's the best approach, of course.

Another way to look at balancing it is:
Let'S say the Large Laser is fine. The LPL is 2 tons heavier. So start with the values of the Large Laser.
Raise the weight by 2 tons and lower the range by 90m (180m max). Now what do you give it to be fair for that? How about lowering the beam duration to 0.5 (remember, we started with the LL now) to compensate for the range difference and lowering the heat per shot by approximately 1.5 points to account for the extra weight (which on an LL using build could be spend on DHS.)

An interesting idea to say the least, though heat is still gonna be a problem and since it fires faster it might be even worse than what we have now. (heat-wise)

( I mean you know the devs, heat is a constant reminder that we cannot have nice things, because if we have heat efficent mechs the dreaded, "4 second jenners", will destroy us all according to them.)

Edited by Slashmckill, 21 February 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Varent]

Roland, on 20 February 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

Dude, what color is the sky in your world?

Medium mechs don't "contest assault mechs". They die almost instantly to assault mechs. They're like slow, huge, light mechs.

And they don't beat light mechs either, because they only carry slightly more firepower, and their slight armor bonuses are negated by the fact that they are slow and huge compared to the lights.

If medium mechs are killing light mechs and it's even CLOSE in a fight against an assault mech, it means the pilots of those other mechs are pretty much terrible.

Actually many medium mechs do very well against assault mechs depending on loadout. If you look at the current meta you would realize this. I can only assume you are judgeing the game from your experiences at whatever level you are at. Look at higher end streams, You wont see many mediums in general because weight restrictions simply make it more realistic to bring a group of jump snipers but the dedicated light killing mechs and many brawling versions give the high alpha assaults night terrors.

Im beginning to think you simply are judging all your opinions based off your own experiences instead of judgement off of higher elo play and interactions.

Edited by Varent, 21 February 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[Roland]

Varent, on 21 February 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

Actually many medium mechs do very well against assault mechs depending on loadout. If you look at the current meta you would realize this. I can only assume you are judgeing the game from your experiences at whatever level you are at. Look at higher end streams, You wont see many mediums in general because weight restrictions simply make it more realistic to bring a group of jump snipers but the dedicated light killing mechs and many brawling versions give the high alpha assaults night terrors.

Im beginning to think you simply are judging all your opinions based off your own experiences instead of judgement off of higher elo play and interactions.

EDIT:
I just realized that getting in a pissing contest with you won't serve any purpose. I'll just pose the question... what night terror would a medium mech give a high alpha assault?

Since the assault mech can punch through the medium in two shots, what exactly is giving the medium mech the advantage there? Are you just expecting the assault pilot to miss?

Edited by Roland, 21 February 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[Osric Lancaster]

Slashmckill, on 21 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

A +2 to hit is kinda hard to translate in a game where all your lasers hit 90% of the time regardless of mech speed, range and pilot skill.

You would be amazed at the things I've seen people miss with lasers. You're just a 2 / 0 pilot.

Interestingly what a +2 did in TT was similar to shifting your range bracket. A 3/7/10 large pulse laser had the same to-hit chance as a 6 / 12 / 18 PPC at ranges 3 - 6 and 8 - 10. The IS large pulse was only more accurate inside 3 hexes or at 7 hexes.

The only way I can think of to approximate inaccuracy in laser weapons would be something like having to hold a beam on a section for two 'ticks' before it started registering damage. That would make 'hosing' things with laser fire less potent, but would probably raise all sorts of issues we don't want to deal with.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 21 February 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[Slashmckill]

Osric Lancaster, on 21 February 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Interestingly what a +2 did in TT was similar to shifting your range bracket. A 3/7/10 large pulse laser had the same to-hit chance as a 6 / 12 / 18 PPC at ranges 3 - 6 and 8 - 10. The IS large pulse was only more accurate inside 3 hexes or at 7 hexes.

The only way I can think of to approximate inaccuracy in laser weapons would be something like having to hold a beam on a section for two 'ticks' before it started registering damage. That would make 'hosing' things with laser fire less potent, but would probably raise all sorts of issues we don't want to deal with.

I know it's a flimsy excuse to ask for an increase in damage, but i honestly think thats all they could use at the moment. Missles need a complete rework plus a hit-reg pass, the heatscale is non-sensical and ecm is everything but balanced, i just want pulses to be useful and the best use for them right now is high damage at short ranges. (this hasn't been a dps game since closed beta i'am afriad)

(i know it comes off as a very meta attitude, but sometimes you have to go with what works for the moment and damage would certainly work)

[Varent]

Roland, on 21 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

EDIT:
I just realized that getting in a pissing contest with you won't serve any purpose. I'll just pose the question... what night terror would a medium mech give a high alpha assault?

Since the assault mech can punch through the medium in two shots, what exactly is giving the medium mech the advantage there? Are you just expecting the assault pilot to miss?

read my other posts instead of skimming them. I answered this.

[Bilbo]

Bilbo, on 19 February 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

LPL worked well on my Boars Head. Still not cool enough for my D-DC without losing the srms. Still need to try it out on my Battle master.

Having playing them a bit more on my D-DC, I find I like them better than the LL if I drop down to SRM4's.