214 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Sephlock, on 25 February 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Be honest: would you EVER use SPLs, even then?

I use them now in a few of my light mechs, where they make excelent component removers due to the short burst time (.4 seconds vs 1 second on MLs). SLs are generally a throw away weapon though. The extended range would help them a bit (bring them in line with MGs), and the extended range of SPLs would be just enough to be useful.

[Thragen]

First, I think the LPL isn't quite there yet either, it's still too hot. I hate to say this but I think that the problem with balancing the LPL is a function of the LL being too good now. In TT, the IS LL was 8/8 ( damage/heat ). In MWO, the LL is 9/7. With the LPL being 10.6/8 there's really not much more "balance room" with respect to heat for the LPL if you will.

What might need to happen, is that the LL moves to 8/7or6 and the LPL moves to 10.6 or 10/7or7.5?

Edited by Thragen, 26 February 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[Sug]

What's up with the crazy damage values of Smpl and Lrgpl?

3.4? 10.6?

Why not just even them out to

Spl = 4 damage
Lpl - 11 damage

?


And lets not forget that in TT Large lasers did 8 damage and pgi buffed them to 9, eroding some of the Lpl's damage advantage.

If we "go by TT'' the ratio was 8 : 10 for LL and LpL.

To maintain the same ratio now with the LL buff the ratio should be 9 : 11.25, so right there the LpL is underpowered.

A buff to damage of

Spl = 4 damage
Mpl = 7 damage
Lpl - 12 damage

would make pulse lasers more usable and worth the drawbacks.

Keep the short range so they remain brawling weapons! The problem isn't the short range it's the fact that the damage they do isn't worth getting into range for.

Edited by Sug, 26 February 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Radbane]

I'll be bold and say that Pulse Lasers should have the same range as regular Lasers. That would make them worth the extra weight and heat, for a shorter pulse and small damage buff.

Supershort range for a weapon that you can't fire continously without overheating and DoT damage makes them really weak right now. You're halfdead before you can get close to use their potential, and when you finaly do you can only fire a few bursts before you either have to run away and find cover or shutdown, and in both cases you're done.

With that mind their real effective DPS is really low compared to other weapons.

[Deathlike]

Sug, on 26 February 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

What's up with the crazy damage values of Smpl and Lrgpl?

3.4? 10.6?

Why not just even them out to

Spl = 4 damage
Lpl - 11 damage

?


And lets not forget that in TT Large lasers did 8 damage and pgi buffed them to 9, eroding some of the Lpl's damage advantage.

If we "go by TT'' the ratio was 8 : 10 for LL and LpL.

To maintain the same ratio now with the LL buff the ratio should be 9 : 11.25, so right there the LpL is underpowered.

A buff to damage of

Spl = 4 damage
Mpl = 7 damage
Lpl - 12 damage

would make pulse lasers more usable and worth the drawbacks.

Keep the short range so they remain brawling weapons! The problem isn't the short range it's the fact that the damage they do isn't worth getting into range for.

Normally I'd agree with you, but the #1 reason I don't use LPLs... is heat.

Everything else will resolve themselves when I don't generate significantly MORE heat than necessary. For the 2 tons I could save by going to the Large Laser, I could do more... or I could forgo that and go directly to the PPC for pinpoint damage despite the heat increase and 1 extra slot required.

Heat literally defines how useful an energy weapon is in this game, particular with this borked overall heat system. There is a reason why the medium laser is the gold standard. I'm not saying the LPL needs to be a medium laser, but it has to justify its existence in comparison to its competition.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 February 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[Sug]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Normally I'd agree with you, but the #1 reason I don't use LPLs... is heat.

What would be the #2 reason?

Seriously though, heat is never #1 for me. I maintain a 2:1 kdr ( ) in a 4P with three PPCs in the hunch ffs. I consider the heat to be worth it if I can do enough damage before I need to hide and cool off. Heat is almost like ammo in my mind. Yeah an uac5 uses ammo but the rest of the weapon's stats more than make up for it. The same thing needs to be said for LpLs and their heat.

Currently LL vs LpL looks like this:




I've highlighted the stats I consider to be "better' than the stats of their counterpart. DPS/HPS/EHS are products of the other stats so I used a different color. With no weight given to any particular category the LL just seems to have more going for it.

If I balance your #1 reason:



I gotta say the LL still just looks better to me. I'm not really trying to prove anything with this. This is just to kinda explain how my mind works and why I think the LPL needs to be buffed in Damage (12), Duration (0.50), Cooldown (3.0), and consequently DPS (3.4)

Oh look, an energy weapon with stats almost as good as a ballistic weapon but without the range.... (Dr. Evil pinky)

That's just the direction I'd like to seem them go with Pulse Lasers. Short ranged ballistic-like energy weapons that trade range for Damage/dps and heat instead of ammo.

IMO the new range buffs and the range modules are a step in the wrong direction and in the case of the modules are an INCREDIBLE waste of everyone's time and money, in the sense of both the real world development and earning them in the game.

Edited by Sug, 26 February 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Deathsani]

I have been fiddling around with the LPL's, and they still don't do as well as a ppc or large laser. I don't know what the fix is, but increasing their range a little wasn't it.

[Deathlike]

Sug, on 26 February 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

What would be the #2 reason?

Seriously though, heat is never #1 for me. I maintain a 2:1 kdr ( ) in a 4P with three PPCs in the hunch ffs. I consider the heat to be worth it if I can do enough damage before I need to hide and cool off. Heat is almost like ammo in my mind. Yeah an uac5 uses ammo but the rest of the weapon's stats more than make up for it. The same thing needs to be said for LpLs and their heat.

Currently LL vs LpL looks like this:




I've highlighted the stats I consider to be "better' than the stats of their counterpart. DPS/HPS/EHS are products of the other stats so I used a different color. With no weight given to any particular category the LL just seems to have more going for it.

If I balance your #1 reason:



I gotta say the LL still just looks better to me. I'm not really trying to prove anything with this. This is just to kinda explain how my mind works and why I think the LPL needs to be buffed in Damage (12), Duration (0.50), Cooldown (3.0), and consequently DPS (3.4)

Oh look, an energy weapon with stats almost as good as a ballistic weapon but without the range.... (Dr. Evil pinky)

That's just the direction I'd like to seem them go with Pulse Lasers. Short ranged ballistic-like energy weapons that trade range for Damage/dps and heat instead of ammo.

IMO the new range buffs and the range modules are a step in the wrong direction and in the case of the modules are an INCREDIBLE waste of everyone's time and money, in the sense of both the real world development and earning them in the game.

You're correct on the #2 reason.. as that was it's #1 problem when it was @ 7.5 heat. It's previous niche was "only because" you had extra tonnage to use a LPL instead of a LL (Catapult-C1 with 2 PPCs + that) came to mind.

I care more about the heat in terms of even considering it, but there was an actual point where I conceded reducing damage, because I really wanted heat to be lowered back to 7.5. The minute damage increase (from 10 to 10.6) did not justify raising its heat (from 7.5 to 8.5). That was always my beef with Paul on that topic.

[Sug]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

The minute damage increase (from 10 to 10.6) did not justify raising its heat (from 7.5 to 8.5).

God I forgot about that heat increase. Now that ghost heat is in place they should look into lowering it.

Edited by Sug, 26 February 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Deathlike]

Sug, on 26 February 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

God I forgot about that heat increase. Now that ghost heat is in place they should look into lowering it.

And... we're reached the point where why I've been complaining about the heat increase in the first place. Thanks, Paul!

[Sug]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

And... we're reached the point where why I've been complaining about the heat increase in the first place. Thanks, Paul!

7.5 still doesn't make it worth using. If all they adjust is heat they would have to lower it under the LL to like 5 heat or something to make the LpL worth the extra weight and reduced range.

[pbiggz]

Any buff is a good buff, but they need to be more ambitious. A minor damage or heat tweak isn't enough to bring this weapons system out of obscurity, either the numbers need to change ALOT, or the weapon mechanic needs to change ALOT.

[Deathlike]

Sug, on 26 February 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

7.5 still doesn't make it worth using. If all they adjust is heat they would have to lower it under the LL to like 5 heat or something to make the LpL worth the extra weight and reduced range.

Well, I've already suggested one alternative... which is to literally alter duration across the board (adjust heat as necessary). I'm kinda tired trying to repeat myself (it's in this thread), so, get back to me if you like or dislike it.

[Sug]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Well, I've already suggested one alternative... which is to literally alter duration across the board (adjust heat as necessary). I'm kinda tired trying to repeat myself (it's in this thread), so, get back to me if you like or dislike it.

I came to the thread late but yeah, the duration reductions you suggested are identical to a post I made before OB : /

Plus a tad more damage.

[Deathlike]

Sug, on 26 February 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

I came to the thread late but yeah, the duration reductions you suggested are identical to a post I made before OB : /

Plus a tad more damage.

Welcome to my disappoint.

[Sug]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Welcome to my disappoint.

Trust me I've owned property in disappointment for about 2 years.

Edited by Sug, 26 February 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Deathlike]

Sug, on 26 February 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Trust me I've owned property in disappointment for about 2 years.

I'll let you have the PentPaulhouse.

[keith]

7.5 heat pulse, the days of 6 lg pulse stalkers. i miss them days. that thing was fun and non meta. i wub wub things to death:P all things pulse are fine now....

[Roland]

I made a detailed explanation a while ago, showing exactly why, from a mathematical perspective, pulse lasers are clearly inferior to standard lasers.

Indeed, the big problem does come down to they range limitation. The reduced range means that in many cases, since you won't be in optimal range for the pulse lasers, their damage will be reduced to the extent that the damage bonus from shortened burn time and increased base damage ends up being completely negated.

As a result, in practice, the actual damage output of the pulse lasers ends up being roughly equal to the standard lasers. But you are paying a huge premium in heat and tonnage.

Thus, the range increase has some basis in logic, but it isn't large enough to significantly impact the results of my prior analysis. Pulse lasers are still poor weapons.

For folks suggesting the large pulse is good, unless you are critical slot constrained, the ppc is pretty much always going to be infinitely better. It has better range, and ZERO burn time.

Edited by Roland, 26 February 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[Elizander]

LPLs seem fine if you use one along with other weapons that are lower heat.