214 replies to this topic

[TercieI]

TygerLily, on 19 February 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I never understood the sacred cow of maintaining the stock configurations. If there was a hardcore/stock mode of gameplay, or single player campaign then there might be concern about them but as is it's kind of a pointless concern.

Original topic derailment, sorry...

I completely agree. It's absurd. In MWO, all you can do in a stock mech is die, so why do they cling to this? It's nuts. And it's not like they've clung to a whole lot of other design pillars.

[TygerLily]

Terciel1976, on 19 February 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I completely agree. It's absurd. In MWO, all you can do in a stock mech is die, so why do they cling to this? It's nuts. And it's not like they've clung to a whole lot of other design pillars.

But srsly...stockmode. That would be super fun...

[TercieI]

TygerLily, on 19 February 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

But srsly...stockmode. That would be super fun...

It would be a very different game, for sure. I'm not sure how much my 80-ton trigger finger and I would actually enjoy it.

[TygerLily]

Terciel1976, on 19 February 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It would be a very different game, for sure. I'm not sure how much my 80-ton trigger finger and I would actually enjoy it.

Haha...true...but there would be a lot less armor to work through...

[DONTOR]

Made a Phract 3D with 3 x LPLs, 1 x ML, XL340, 19DHS, 2 JJs. So far it does really well, and lights are no problem for it at all. The LPLs alone with 19DHS is above 50% cooling efficiency.

Edited by DONTOR, 19 February 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Deathlike]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

I'm still getting range and heat vibes from this thread.

• 100-120 m Small Laser
  
• 100-120 m Small Pulse Laser, 4 damage
  
• 210 m Medium Pulse Laser, 4.5 Heat
  
• 360 m Large Pulse Laser, 7.5 Heat

Any thoughts?

It should be more than just that for small lasers.

135m Small Laser
120m Small Pulse Laser

Anyways, let me kind of quantify/qualify why the heat drop is necessary.

Here's something to think about.

If you had the choice between 2 Medium Lasers vs 1 Large Pulse Laser... which is more appealing?

Before you say "the LPL is great for the Spider-5V", just stop right there.

The LPL only generates .6 more damage than 2 Medium Lasers.

The LPL has more range (finally) over the Medium Laser, generates the same amount of heat that 2 Medium Lasers, and has a shorter duration, BUT, this is 7 tons consumed vs 2. With the 5 tons saved, you could have used for 5 DHS... although it probably won't be that much. It'll probably be closer to 2-3 with an engine buff that could be considered more useful.

So, LPL continues to compete with the medium laser. Having used it, it seems to be in a better place, but not good enough at this point in time. Just remember that it generates more heat in sustained fire over the ER Large Laser (with two tons saved to boot). Seriously...

Edited by Deathlike, 19 February 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

The extra range was a slight improvement...however, they are still too hot for the minor damage / beam duration advantage they have over regular lasers.

Would like to see them either increase damage or shorten beam duration further.

.

[Artgathan]

If you're willing to do some math with your stats you can see that Pulse Lasers are inferior. Heat and Range buffs help, but increasing damage or shortening burn time would be better.

Essentially if you take (Damage / Hits * Accuarcy) you'll come up with an "average damage per hit" for laser weapons. My pulse lasers only deal 10 - 20% more damage per hit than their regular counterparts, despite weighing 40% - 100% more.

[LaserAngel]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

It should be more than just that for small lasers.

135m Small Laser
120m Small Pulse Laser

Anyways, let me kind of quantify/qualify why the heat drop is necessary.

Here's something to think about.

If you had the choice between 2 Medium Lasers vs 1 Large Pulse Laser... which is more appealing?

Before you say "the LPL is great for the Spider-5V", just stop right there.

The LPL only generates .6 more damage than 2 Medium Lasers.

The LPL has more range (finally) over the Medium Laser, generates the same amount of heat that 2 Medium Lasers, and has a shorter duration, BUT, this is 7 tons consumed vs 2. With the 5 tons saved, you could have used for 5 DHS... although it probably won't be that much. It'll probably be closer to 2-3 with an engine buff that could be considered more useful.

So, LPL continues to compete with the medium laser. Having used it, it seems to be in a better place, but not good enough at this point in time. Just remember that it generates more heat in sustained fire over the ER Large Laser (with two tons saved to boot). Seriously...

I'm somewhat wary to increase the damage on the Large Pulse Laser at a whopping 10.6 right now. I thought it needed increase to 11 (ha...ha...) but when you're facing a pair on another Mech's arm you start doubting that idea. At this point dropping the heat to 7.5 and slightly more range might be more palatable.

0.5 second beam duration needs to be across the board on all Pulse Lasers.

Now in the case of the ER Large Laser, it needs to have its heat bumped back up to 9. 9 heat and 9 damage for that extended range over the Large Laser. In addition if you want more pep on the Large Laser you can use the Weapon Module and once you get hit Level 5 on that it'll poke to 1,000 meters.

Edited by LaserAngel, 19 February 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Deathlike]

A more productive overhaul would look like this.

LL Duration: 1 sec
LPL Duration: .5 sec
ML Duration: .8 sec (yes, a buff)
MPL Duration: .4 sec
SL Duration: .6 sec (another buff)
SPL Duration: .3 sec

Heat will need to be adjusted (due to DPS), but the idea that pulse is twice as effective (half the duration of regular lasers) would be optimal.

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm somewhat wary to increase the damage on the Large Pulse Laser at a whopping 10.6 right now. I thought it needed increase to 11 (ha...ha...) but when you're facing a pair on another Mech's arm you start doubting that idea. At this point dropping the heat to 7.5 and slightly more range might be more palatable.

The increased damage has had added little to no value to the LPL. It was always heat that was most crippling. Another range boost is OK, but HEAT reduction is the #1 required buff at this point in time.

Quote

0.5 second beam duration needs to be across the board on all Pulse Lasers.

Well, I think there needs to be some distinction, as my example listed earlier in this post.

Quote

Now in the case of the ER Large Laser, it needs to have its heat bumped back up to 9. 9 heat and 9 damage for that extended range over the Large Laser. In addition if you want more pep on the Large Laser you can use the Weapon Module and once you get hit Level 5 on that it'll poke to 1,000 meters.

I would think the ER Large heat buff was generous... but honestly it's more or less fine where it is at. The weapon module system for lasers in general is kinda borked (like, what is the point of increasing range on the LL, when you could simply equip the ERL).

Edited by Deathlike, 19 February 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Daekar]

Large Pulses:
Beam duration: OK
Range: Better. Probably shouldn't be any greater
Heat: Better. Maybe drop it another 0.5. Maybe not, if a 3LgPLas Cataphract is running at 50% efficiency.
Weapon value proposition IMHO: Middling. Will consider on heavy and assaults. Probably a waste of tonnage on mediums and lights.

Medium Pulses still useless.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

wanderer, on 19 February 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

So that stock Wolverine-K I got would just have interesting lacks in the tonnage department when I bought it, then. Or it'd have extras. Either way, it wouldn't be stock.

Wouldn't be a problem though because you could replace the empty weight by adding armor, even on clan mechs as far as we know, without problem.

On top of that, stock mechs shouldn't be the sacred cow that PGI believes them to be, because stock configs are just walking, useless coffins in 98% of the cases. Lore/fluff doesn't matter that much when absolutely no one uses the stock configs anyway.

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 19 February 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[LaserAngel]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

A more productive overhaul would look like this.

LL Duration: 1 sec
LPL Duration: .5 sec
ML Duration: .8 sec (yes, a buff)
MPL Duration: .4 sec
SL Duration: .6 sec (another buff)
SPL Duration: .3 sec

Heat will need to be adjusted (due to DPS), but the idea that pulse is twice as effective (half the duration of regular lasers) would be optimal.

Now you've really piqued my interest. I like where this is going too since Light and Medium Mechs are bristling with Small and Medium Lasers it also means that they're going to reduce their exposure time against Heavy and Assault Mechs carrying lots of high DPS ballistics.

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think the ER Large heat buff was generous... but honestly it's more or less fine where it is at. The weapon module system for lasers in general is kinda borked (like, what is the point of increasing range on the LL, when you could simply equip the ERL).

I was quite shocked too to see the ER Large Laser brought down to 8.5 Heat months ago. I agree it was a very generous reduction. 9 damage and 9 heat for the ease of use and superior range compared to a PPC brings it more back in line.

[Fang01]

Ever since i first got a look at the battlemaster in smurfy i knew i wanted to master one around a huge xl and a quad of large pulse. Even before the buff this was a ridiculously op build with speed, protection, and devastating high mounted punch.

For my first drop yesterday i equipped blitzkrieg with her usual LPL layout (I'd been testing a hybrid 2 ppc 2 lpl no ghost build which works incredibly well)
Hit alpine and launched shorthanded. Had at least four lights attempt to solo me and all failed followed by an aggressive mop up. Final Talley showed 6 kills with over 700 dmg. Lifetime stats at log out last night showed 3+ kdr @80 drops. Monster.

If you can't make em work either you can't aim or you suck at building. Sorry

[Deathlike]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Now you've really piqued my interest. I like where this is going too since Light and Medium Mechs are bristling with Small and Medium Lasers it also means that they're going to reduce their exposure time against Heavy and Assault Mechs carrying lots of high DPS ballistics.

Yea, it's a better "simulation" of increased accuracy for TT, but I'd like to think half the time spent looking at the target for double tonnage (less than 50% for LPL over LL) makes a lot more sense than what they have now ("overtonned" laser versions). Plus, it should indirectly help brawling with energy weapons.

Quote

I was quite shocked too to see the ER Large Laser brought down to 8.5 Heat months ago. I agree it was a very generous reduction. 9 damage and 9 heat for the ease of use and superior range compared to a PPC brings it more back in line.

9 might be too high. Remember it's only 10 heat for the PPC now. There were times people had been asking for a duration nerf for the ERL and even now that doesn't make sense to me. I believe 8.5 is more or less where it should be, so any adjustment will tilt its viability over the regular PPC. Let's be honest... in cases where I'd like to/should use ER Large Lasers on (in a Dragon), I ended up going with PPCs. I'm dead serious on this.

[LaserAngel]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yea, it's a better "simulation" of increased accuracy for TT, but I'd like to think half the time spent looking at the target for double tonnage (less than 50% for LPL over LL) makes a lot more sense than what they have now ("overtonned" laser versions). Plus, it should indirectly help brawling with energy weapons.

It's brawling burst DPS vs. sustained DPS at range. I really hope someone on the development team looks at your Laser suggestion.

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

9 might be too high. Remember it's only 10 heat for the PPC now. There were times people had been asking for a duration nerf for the ERL and even now that doesn't make sense to me. I believe 8.5 is more or less where it should be, so any adjustment will tilt its viability over the regular PPC. Let's be honest... in cases where I'd like to/should use ER Large Lasers on (in a Dragon), I ended up going with PPCs. I'm dead serious on this.

I see what you mean. You push the ER Large Laser too high and people will just go for the PPC even if the ER Large Laser can reach another 270 meters beyond the PPC and can deal damage inside of 90 meters.

[Deathlike]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

It's brawling burst DPS vs. sustained DPS at range. I really hope someone on the development team looks at your Laser suggestion.

They fired Garth. Who would be a great candidate to replace him? Paul?

Quote

I see what you mean. You push the ER Large Laser too high and people will just go for the PPC even if the ER Large Laser can reach another 270 meters beyond the PPC and can deal damage inside of 90 meters.

It has a lot more to do with the instant damage aspect of the PPC. Now, there has a notion to reduce the damage on it, which "may" mitigate some of the behavior, but in the grand scheme of things, if you have to show your face to fire longer than you should, then you're going to die faster. That's what the current meta tells us.

Speaking of meta, I'm still waiting for the next KongKast.

[LaserAngel]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

It has a lot more to do with the instant damage aspect of the PPC. Now, there has a notion to reduce the damage on it, which "may" mitigate some of the behavior, but in the grand scheme of things, if you have to show your face to fire longer than you should, then you're going to die faster. That's what the current meta tells us.

Alright, I'll lay off increasing the ER Large Laser heat. I recall in November 2012 where Garth mentioned that they were exploring reducing the burn-in time for the ER Large Laser to complement its "sniping" nature.

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Speaking of meta, I'm still waiting for the next KongKast.

We might be able to wrangle together another MechWarrior: Online episode. I guess at this point we're saving face since we did have two "farewell" episodes.

Edited by LaserAngel, 19 February 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Let me put it this way. When compared to the Lrg Laser, you get:

• 40% more weight investment (2 tons)
  
• 18% more damage (10.6 vs 9)
  
• 14% more heat (8 vs 7)
  
• 23% less range (350 vs 450)

They used to pair up really well with Md Lasers but now the added range, which wasn't really needed, kind of hosed that up. Had they kept the range and damage, and just dropped the heat back down, it would have been a decent decision choice. Sadly, though, you're still stuck with the logic of the situation:

"Do I really want to spend 7 tons for what amounts to 2 Md Lasers?"

[Deathlike]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Alright, I'll lay off increasing the ER Large Laser heat. I recall in November 2012 where Garth mentioned that they were exploring reducing the burn-in time for the ER Large Laser to complement its "sniping" nature.

Well, that was Garth's position at the time... when he had one.

I want to add that the Raven-3L with 2 ERL is being used sparingly these days... intended to troll poptarts that can't quite react fast enough to ECM and extended ranges where accuracy with PPCs drop down significantly. It's not as good facing a light mech is facing off with them, but considering the trolling nature of the build, it works better than you'd think.

Seen a lot of it in action on Alpine, even while taking a non-optimal position at the lower side of the mountain. It trolls effectively when not countered/challenged.

Quote

We might be able to wrangle together another MechWarrior: Online episode. I guess at this point we're saving face since we did have two "farewell" episodes.

Let me know when it'll happen. At this point, it's a slow grinding death. It'll only accelerate on its own and on its own time.