214 replies to this topic

[LaserAngel]

Trauglodyte, on 19 February 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Let me put it this way. When compared to the Lrg Laser, you get:

• 40% more weight investment (2 tons)
  
• 18% more damage (10.6 vs 9)
  
• 14% more heat (8 vs 7)
  
• 23% less range (350 vs 450)

They used to pair up really well with Md Lasers but now the added range, which wasn't really needed, kind of hosed that up. Had they kept the range and damage, and just dropped the heat back down, it would have been a decent decision choice. Sadly, though, you're still stuck with the logic of the situation:


"Do I really want to spend 7 tons for what amounts to 2 Md Lasers?"

I'd still like a little more range. 360 meters would be perfect for me. Are you looking for more damage too? We can't really touch the tonnage on it but when you say "Do I really want to spend 7 tons for what amounts to 2 Md Lasers?" it really hits home. The Medium Pulse Laser feels right at 200 meters even though I'd like 210. Though it's a hot addition at 5 heat.

[Sagamore]

I've been using LPL for a while, pre-buff and I like them even better now. I had a great game with a 4 LPL Battlemaster on Terra Therma doing almost 900 damage and 3 kills. Pulling those numbers on the hottest map is a good indication that they have been buffed.

MPL on the other hand are still super niche and are still completely outclassed by the 1 ton ML in most situations.

[Trauglodyte]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

I want to add that the Raven-3L with 2 ERL is being used sparingly these days... intended to troll poptarts that can't quite react fast enough to ECM and extended ranges where accuracy with PPCs drop down significantly. It's not as good facing a light mech is facing off with them, but considering the trolling nature of the build, it works better than you'd think.

Seen a lot of it in action on Alpine, even while taking a non-optimal position at the lower side of the mountain. It trolls effectively when not countered/challenged.

A lot has been made about the 3L ECM sniper. I've had issues with it but that only happens on Tourmaline or Alpine. Both of those maps have great long range corridors and cover. On the smaller maps, they're a joke and easy to get to and their output amounts to roughly 4 Md Lases. They only become an issue when you're arleady engaged or too slow to close the gap. And, even then, only in PUGs when you don't have good communication with trustworthy Light to handle the problem (PUGgers always want to brawl and such for some reason). If PPCs were easier to hit with at max range, you'd see them employed more. But, it is the whole joy of terrain shifting while firing that is the draw.

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'd still like a little more range. 360 meters would be perfect for me. Are you looking for more damage too? We can't really touch the tonnage on it but when you say "Do I really want to spend 7 tons for what amounts to 2 Md Lasers?" it really hits home. The Medium Pulse Laser feels right at 200 meters even though I'd like 210. Though it's a hot addition at 5 heat.

For me, the choice really comes down to how much tonnage that I have available. I switched my LRMbolt around last night. It normally has an LRM30, ER PPC, and 2 Md Lasers w/ TAG. But, I switched out the PPC for the Lrg Pulse and was happy with it. Did I lose anything? Eh, not really. In actuality, I was better when targets got in close than I was with my prior setup and the Lrg Pulse pairs really well with Md Lasers. Of course, I could drop the Lrg Pulse for an ER Lrg Laser and upgrade the two Mds to Md Pulse Lasers for the same effect but better range coverage. And that is kind of the problem. At what point is the Lrg Pulse really worth it? 7 tons for 2 isn't good math.

[LaserAngel]

Trauglodyte, on 19 February 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

For me, the choice really comes down to how much tonnage that I have available. I switched my LRMbolt around last night. It normally has an LRM30, ER PPC, and 2 Md Lasers w/ TAG. But, I switched out the PPC for the Lrg Pulse and was happy with it. Did I lose anything? Eh, not really. In actuality, I was better when targets got in close than I was with my prior setup and the Lrg Pulse pairs really well with Md Lasers. Of course, I could drop the Lrg Pulse for an ER Lrg Laser and upgrade the two Mds to Md Pulse Lasers for the same effect but better range coverage. And that is kind of the problem. At what point is the Lrg Pulse really worth it? 7 tons for 2 isn't good math.

I should have mentioned this earlier but I already had a feeling that your reply might involve a Mech's total number of weapon hard points and tonnage. Anything that wants to carry two Large Pulse Lasers is looking at Assault level tonnage but limited mobility and/or an XL Engine. Perhaps we can try 11 damage at 7.5 heat while keeping the 350 meter range.

[wanderer]

Terciel1976, on 19 February 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I completely agree. It's absurd. In MWO, all you can do in a stock mech is die, so why do they cling to this? It's nuts. And it's not like they've clung to a whole lot of other design pillars.

The fact that stock 'Mechs do so incredibly, abominably horrid is one of the fingers of shame I point at MWO's development. They did such a bad job with the heat system that it DOES turn stocks into death-traps. Customs should be better, but FFS they shouldn't be the only way to make a viable design.

[Trauglodyte]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

I should have mentioned this earlier but I already had a feeling that your reply might involve a Mech's total number of weapon hard points and tonnage. Anything that wants to carry two Large Pulse Lasers is looking at Assault level tonnage but limited mobility and/or an XL Engine. Perhaps we can try 11 damage at 7.5 heat while keeping the 350 meter range.

They really need to stop looking at the Lrg Pulse Laser like it is a Large Laser. What it really needs to be considered is a sawed off PPC (not to be confused with the Snub Nose PPC). It has the same weight and should have near the same damage, give or take, but the lack of heat should be a reflection of the lack of range and short duration of fire. The Pulse weapon, in my mind, is in a really bad place in this game because it has the damage and weight of the PPC but has the range and beam duration of the Lrg Laser.

I always thought that a way to make the Pulse Laser different is to make it like a combination Machine Gun and UAC. You can hold the trigger and unload all of your damage and have to wait until it recharges BUT it would recharge one pulse at 1/5th the recycle time. So, you'd be able to unload 5 pulses in 0.6s but 0.65s later you could fire again but only one pulse. If you waited 1.3s you could fire off 2 pulses. If you waited the full 3.25s, you'd be back up to a full clip. So, you'd have the option of a big front loaded blast or a few paper cuts here and there. You could then drop the heat of the individual pulse and add in ghost heat to the weapon to make the full pulse dangerous. Efficient and heat effective in small doses but hot, like now, in a big blast.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 19 February 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[wanderer]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

We might be able to wrangle together another MechWarrior: Online episode. I guess at this point we're saving face since we did have two "farewell" episodes.

/mwog/ageddon in it's own time, Kong Interstellar will be whenever SC gets going. After all, maybe the horse here will sing before something else comes along.

[xMintaka]

LPulses will never be better than PPC's, because pinpoint damage. Simple as that.

The buff has helped though. I love the weapon and have been using it to great effect. Can't get away from it being inferior to the PPC though.

MPulse, meh. They're too heavy for the mechs that would benefit from boating them, IMO. The better buff would be to reduce the weight by 0.5ton, and the rest of what was done. I don't think that would make them OP, and it would make a great alternative for Light 'mechs.

[Victor Morson]

I have to reserve judgement until I try them in 12 mans tonight. LPLs seemed to clean house in my few pug drops now, MPLs are definitely on the viable table.

Will report back then.

[LaserAngel]

Trauglodyte, on 19 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

They really need to stop looking at the Lrg Pulse Laser like it is a Large Laser. What it really needs to be considered is a sawed off PPC (not to be confused with the Snub Nose PPC). It has the same weight and should have near the same damage, give or take, but the lack of heat should be a reflection of the lack of range and short duration of fire. The Pulse weapon, in my mind, is in a really bad place in this game because it has the damage and weight of the PPC but has the range and beam duration of the Lrg Laser.

I always thought that a way to make the Pulse Laser different is to make it like a combination Machine Gun and UAC. You can hold the trigger and unload all of your damage and have to wait until it recharges BUT it would recharge one pulse at 1/5th the recycle time. So, you'd be able to unload 5 pulses in 0.6s but 0.65s later you could fire again but only one pulse. If you waited 1.3s you could fire off 2 pulses. If you waited the full 3.25s, you'd be back up to a full clip. So, you'd have the option of a big front loaded blast or a few paper cuts here and there. You could then drop the heat of the individual pulse and add in ghost heat to the weapon to make the full pulse dangerous. Efficient and heat effective in small doses but hot, like now, in a big blast.

"Laser Machine Gun" has been a popular term for the desired behavior for Pulse Lasers. Another one is front loading damage at the expense of heat and that related to brawling. My guess is the next route might be tweaking the burn in time on Lasers in general once more.

Over on reddit you'll notice that while the Large Laser allows you to carry two DHS alongside, you do need 6 more critical spaces in order to do so.

wanderer, on 19 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

/mwog/ageddon in it's own time, Kong Interstellar will be whenever SC gets going. After all, maybe the horse here will sing before something else comes along.

I believe it's avoiding hypocrisy and critics for "you said you were going to leave the game already!"

[Pjwned]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 19 February 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Ever since i first got a look at the battlemaster in smurfy i knew i wanted to master one around a huge xl and a quad of large pulse. Even before the buff this was a ridiculously op build with speed, protection, and devastating high mounted punch.

For my first drop yesterday i equipped blitzkrieg with her usual LPL layout (I'd been testing a hybrid 2 ppc 2 lpl no ghost build which works incredibly well)
Hit alpine and launched shorthanded. Had at least four lights attempt to solo me and all failed followed by an aggressive mop up. Final Talley showed 6 kills with over 700 dmg. Lifetime stats at log out last night showed 3+ kdr @80 drops. Monster.

If you can't make em work either you can't aim or you suck at building. Sorry

Great, you can make it work by boating it exclusively on 1 of the heaviest mechs around, one that tends to have a lot of focus on energy weapons I might add, and did pretty well with it. That doesn't necessarily mean pulse lasers are just fine, and in fact I would argue that those lights that got destroyed were pretty terrible.

[LaserAngel]

Pjwned, on 19 February 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Great, you can make it work by boating it exclusively on 1 of the heaviest mechs around, one that tends to have a lot of focus on energy weapons I might add, and did pretty well with it. That doesn't necessarily mean pulse lasers are just fine, and in fact I would argue that those lights that got destroyed were pretty terrible.

I'd agree but when you're in a 35 ton Mech, you respect a pair of Large Pulse Lasers that can nearly wipe off your arm in a single burst.

[Appogee]

Still can't find a reason to use LPLs over PPCs.

LPLs are the same tonnage, but lower range, and don't do pinpoint damage.

If LPLs were 6 tons instead of 7, I'd be using them quite often.

[FactorlanP]

Appogee, on 19 February 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Still can't find a reason to use LPLs over PPCs.

LPLs are the same tonnage, but lower range, and don't do pinpoint damage.

If LPLs were 6 tons instead of 7, I'd be using them quite often.

I agree completely.

But I also understand that fiddling with weights and crit space requirements can screw with stock builds and is best avoided.

So, for that extra weight, I need a better reason to equip a large pulse laser than what we have right now.

[Deathlike]

Appogee, on 19 February 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Still can't find a reason to use LPLs over PPCs.

Unfortunately, that's still true.

Quote

LPLs are the same tonnage, but lower range, and don't do pinpoint damage.

Making Pulse Lasers pinpoint would essentially invalidate regular lasers overnight, despite the heat that they currently have. Reworking some of the mechanics would help.

Quote

If LPLs were 6 tons instead of 7, I'd be using them quite often.

Outside of trying to "rebalance" the tonnage/crit numbers, you have to remember that Clan Tech for most things are unfortunately superior (particularly missiles). One easily quantifiable benefit of Clan Pulse is essentially adding "ER" in front of it, w/o much of a heat increase, but a major range increase. It is important as it is right now to buff pulse lasers in general so that the Clan ones aren't clearly superior (which, there is still work to be done there) or that the regular IS tech is completely inferior. Right now, pulse lasers are not exactly where they need to be, relative to other competing weapons... particularly the medium laser.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 February 2014 - 01:20 PM.

[Pjwned]

LaserAngel, on 19 February 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

I'd agree but when you're in a 35 ton Mech, you respect a pair of Large Pulse Lasers that can nearly wipe off your arm in a single burst.

I'm not saying that LPLs aren't particularly effective for dealing with lights, because they are, but if there's 4 of you against 1 assault mech and you lose that's pretty bad, unless it was a pack of locusts maybe.

[CarnifexMaximus]

Underwhelming

[SirLANsalot]

wow.....didn't know the idiot went this deep with people.


This buff was amazing!

HEAVY METAL With JJ

HEAVY METAL Without JJ (but faster).

are the two build I run. Both are triple LPL builds (I alpha them), and it makes tons of people cry as I play my music and roll on. They can snipe (Gauss) or play peekaboo sniper, or brawl. Just general good all around builds that work at any range, and it nukes the living daylights out of BoomJagers (you can deal 40 damage to me....but I deal more and have more armor then you).



Better heat for the LPL AND more range....love it! Those MPLs are amazing now too, ya it was only a 20m increase, but now its a little more rounded.

[Trauglodyte]

SirLANsalot, on 19 February 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

wow.....didn't know the idiot went this deep with people.


This buff was amazing!

HEAVY METAL With JJ

HEAVY METAL Without JJ (but faster).

are the two build I run. Both are triple LPL builds (I alpha them), and it makes tons of people cry as I play my music and roll on. They can snipe (Gauss) or play peekaboo sniper, or brawl. Just general good all around builds that work at any range, and it nukes the living daylights out of BoomJagers (you can deal 40 damage to me....but I deal more and have more armor then you).



Better heat for the LPL AND more range....love it! Those MPLs are amazing now too, ya it was only a 20m increase, but now its a little more rounded.

Pull the Gauss for an AC20 and replace the SRM4s with LRM5s. It gives you weak ranged damage while keeping your targets' heads down until you get within brawling range. 50 alpha damage is pretty nasty.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Its a brawling weapon, it doesn't need range. It need speed!

They failed at role warfare, at least they need to try to let weapons have roles instead of changing them so they are redundant with other type of weapons, in this case, normal laser.

Just because of the tonnage, the large pulse laser is NOT WORTH IT compared to the all mighty PPC. Both weight 7 tons, same weight, same slot. The difference, in a perfect world, would be that the PPC is for long range while the PULSES are for short range. But alas, it isnt the case.

The PPC weight the same, have instant damage and can shoot at very long range. The downside being that it doesnt do any damage under 200 meters. But seriously, people fight much more from range than from that close, thanks to terribly bad brawling weapons. (SRM, PULSE, LBX-10, FLAMERS)

So yeah, once again whoever is in charge of balancing weapons is clueless and can't figure out that weapons are tools and tools that fill the same roles are redundant.

Edited by BlackIronTarkus, 19 February 2014 - 01:40 PM.