195 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

xMEPHISTOx, on 22 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Even if they were to nerf it all as some would like the people who are currently doing the r@ping would still be r@ping after said nerfs, it is not the weapons but the skills of those using them, be it sniping or brawling. Stop crying.

Don't recall ever saying that I want it changed because I die to it. Nice try, though.

I want this change for the longterm health and balance of the game. I want it to create a wider range of viable builds in this game as well. Stagnation due to limited competitive build options isn't a good thing.

*edits to add*

Oh, and for the record.. I am a ballistics junkie when it comes to BT. Always have been and always will be. I am just capable of admitting when something is inherently out of balance due to mechanics.

Edited by Foxfire, 22 February 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Don't recall ever saying that I want it changed because I die to it.

Removed quote of you from my post, was not necessarily meant to be solely directed at you.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

I have an idea: double the ghost heat increase for AC 40 and force people to chainfire them instead. Last unbalanced bastion of pin point alpha damage gone, hurray!

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 22 February 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[Deathsani]

I don't like the idea of cone of fire, but I think with their status on convergence that this would be the simplest solution.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 22 February 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

The best brawling weapon is the AC. SRM's are buggy on hit detection right now and if they fixed hit detection, the damage they do will be dropped back down(the damage they do now is artificially inflated because of the hit detection issue). Medium lasers are good weapons because they have a balance of good damage, heat, and range and you need to have some weapon to use in between firing the big shots.

The ac20 is not the brawling weapon people think it is. If this was the case the ac40 jager would be viable at higher elo. Its not. SRM are however still used even at higher elo on medium flanking mechs. There is a reason for this. When hit detection comes back around SRM will be king.

stjobe, on 22 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Another way to reduce jump sniping is, of course, to remove instant-damage weapons by making ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam duration.

So tell me again how it's all the fault of the jump jet?

As a gedankenexperiment, imagine what would happen if we made lasers continuous-fire weapons; would they be better or worse than today given they had the same DPS?

It's not just that instant-damage applies its damage better, it also allows the firer to focus solely on (defensive) maneuvering apart from the instant he lines up and takes his shot (and this is where your jump-jet theory fits in).

Now lets list our weapons:

In order of how much time you have to maneuver between shots:
1. ACs, PPCs, Gauss, SRMs (you can twist away as soon as you've pulled the trigger).
2. Lasers (you have to stay on target for the duration of the beam, but can twist away during cooldown).
3. MG (you have to stay on target period, twist away and you lose DPS).

In order of effectiveness of damage application:
1. ACs, PPCs, Gauss (all damage instantly).
2. Lasers (damage spread over beam duration).
3. Missiles and MG (damage spread over time and/or cone of fire/missile spread).

Would you look at that, the meta-favoured weapons are number 1 in both categories. Huh, who'da thunk?

Edit: In fact, if all our weapons were continuous-fire we'd have to make a tough choice as to whether to damage our target or to protect ourselves; that kind of choice is rarely present in the current MWO.

you want it removed because you dont like how strong it is verus light mechs.

there is alot of playstyles in this game. FLD is the dominant one because of JJ.

Your suggestion removes a playstyle. My suggestion allows for more playstyles while taking away the dominant meta. How bout that?

[Foxfire]

AC40 jagers are a joke because of what they need to sacrifice to get it(armor and engine size to be able to distribute damage via torso twisting). It is no different than the AC40 Cats in that respect.

If you cannot see the benefit from being able to apply 20 points of damage on a single point and be able to torso twist sooner to distribute damage then there is no point in continuing discussions.

Simple fact is, beam weapons are inferior to FLD weapons because damage can be distributed by the actions of the defender.

[Craig Steele]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

The ac20 is not the brawling weapon people think it is. If this was the case the ac40 jager would be viable at higher elo. Its not. SRM are however still used even at higher elo on medium flanking mechs. There is a reason for this. When hit detection comes back around SRM will be king.



you want it removed because you dont like how strong it is verus light mechs.

there is alot of playstyles in this game. FLD is the dominant one because of JJ.

Your suggestion removes a playstyle. My suggestion allows for more playstyles while taking away the dominant meta. How bout that?

While agree with your sentiment completely, I suspect the example doesn't serve you well.

Medium mechs will struggle to carry the 'better' weapons with their tonnage requirements while mainatining speed and so SRM's even with the current hit registration issues is the better choice. ie, 1 AC10 or 3 SRM6, the SRM's pack a much bigger punch.

[Varent]

Craig Steele, on 22 February 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

While agree with your sentiment completely, I suspect the example doesn't serve you well.

Medium mechs will struggle to carry the 'better' weapons with their tonnage requirements while mainatining speed and so SRM's even with the current hit registration issues is the better choice. ie, 1 AC10 or 3 SRM6, the SRM's pack a much bigger punch.

nothing to do with tonnage. I used mediums as an example since with the current meta there isnt a point in not mostly taking assault jump snipers, but you still do see s-hawks and some of the newer mechs hoping around in those elos for fun. It was an example because often times those mechs do VERY weell against jump snipers provided they can close distance.

TBH high srm builds were very common on assault mechs until the victor and highlander. The stalker, the awesome and the atlas all were able to run 3-5 srm missle racks and often did so. In fact I still have an awesome with 4 of them, a stalker with 4 and an atlas with 3. These were COMMON builds. These weapons werent released before the ac or ppc. They were readily available and people were CHOOSING to play them over ppc ac builds. THey were doing this because they were BETTER at brawling. Simple fact is the victor and highlander made people realize how strong JJ +assault and ppc ac could be since those mechs then have no downside.

Frankly, even though they have announced they are going to focus on nerfing the highlander and victor (hint hint hint confirming reasoning). I hope they focus on JJ as a whole.

[stjobe]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

you want it removed because you dont like how strong it is verus light mechs.

Completely and utterly wrong, and a strawman to boot.

Believe it or not, but I want it changed (not necessarily removed) because I want the game to be better and not just an automatic default to AC+PPC, which is the current situation.

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

there is alot of playstyles in this game. FLD is the dominant one because of JJ.

No, FLD is the dominant one because it's the most effective way of delivering damage. It has nothing to do with jump-jets. How many pop-tarts pop-tart with lasers or missiles? Why don't they? And if JJs were the culprit, the AC/40 or quad AC Jagers would be harmless.

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Your suggestion removes a playstyle. My suggestion allows for more playstyles while taking away the dominant meta. How bout that?

Your suggestion is to change something unrelated to the actual problem, and as such is a perfect fit for PGI's so-called balancing thus far. It, however, fails to actually do something about the problem.

Treat the problem, not the symptoms.

[StonedDead]

A small point of interest in this discussion. The LB-10-X, using solid slug ammo(not canister) is almost definitely a single round weapon. The spread shell(IE buckshot) would be a large caliber canister to hold all the shot. The same barrel is used for the standard AC/10 round it can fire. Therefore, logically, the LB10 fires a single large round when using single shot ammo. I also believe it to be described in books as such.

[wanderer]

Cluster rounds are a single shot, solid shots are a burst. Note that while an LB can fire standard AC ammo, it can't fire specialty AC ammo like precision or AP rounds.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

The ac20 is not the brawling weapon people think it is. If this was the case the ac40 jager would be viable at higher elo. Its not. SRM are however still used even at higher elo on medium flanking mechs. There is a reason for this. When hit detection comes back around SRM will be king.

I disagree. At higher Elo, players have studied the Mech and figured out its weaknesses. I use a Jager40 on one of my Alts, knowing it is a one trick pony, at Joe's Elo Level, hat trick is now a Joke, and a more versatile mech is needed.

Quote

you want it removed because you dont like how strong it is verus light mechs.

He wants it remove because he feels it would be best for the game over all. I argue against him cause his suggestions run counter o my preferred play style, and I think every type of player should be able to play the game his way. So long as it is not cheating.

Quote

there is alot of playstyles in this game. FLD is the dominant one because of JJ.


Your suggestion removes a playstyle. My suggestion allows for more playstyles while taking away the dominant meta. How bout that?

Though I agree with your point, you should make it less personal.

StJobe actually posted quotes from recent TT sourcebooks that demonstrate that all of MW:O ACs are AC20s since they throw the same amount of damage down range in the same amount of time. He didn't need to put that out there, But in the spirit of fairness he did. Its hard to want to disagree with that kind of debating, even when you "know" (read feel) You are right.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 February 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Cluster rounds are a single shot, solid shots are a burst. Note that while an LB can fire standard AC ammo, it can't fire specialty AC ammo like precision or AP rounds.

That sounds strange wanderer and here's why. A LB-X hits with 5 damage and is the same size and shape(basically) as a single AC5 shell, but it breaks up into 5 pellets that spread the damage. But our AC5 delivers damage equal to a small caliber AC20.

[wanderer]

Honestly, AC fire rates are a mite borked.

An AC/2 fires about once every 2.5 seconds in TT. It's firing between 4-5 times faster in MWO.
AC/5's and 10's fire about once every 5 in TT. AC/5's in MWO fire 3-4 times faster, AC/10's a mere doubling of the fire rate.
AC/20's fire once every 7.5 seconds. MWO ones fire slightly less than twice that.

Figure they were aiming for 2-3 times and adjust accordingly, with 20's being a bit slower than double and AC/2's verging towards triple TT.

AC/2's fire with a .85 cooldown instead of .5 ish. They'll still be rapid fire, but it won't be nearly as insane (and incidentally, fixes their ghost heat problem)
AC/5's and UAC/5's fire with a 2.0 cooldown instead of 1.5. (Which means they put 10 damage down the line as fast as a PPC unless double-tapped)
AC/10's and 20's don't change at all.

Voila. Everything isn't an AC/20.

[Joseph Mallan]

But could the Masses accept this thinking???

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Masses =\= thinking Joe.

[Lykaon]

xMEPHISTOx, on 22 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Even if they were to nerf it all as some would like the people who are currently doing the r@ping would still be r@ping after said nerfs, it is not the weapons but the skills of those using them, be it sniping or brawling. Stop crying.

I do find it kinda funny that "skills" is = to put autocannons and PPCs on your Victor or Highlander.

Yep I got me some mad skills so skilled I even put PPCs and ACs on other mechs like Cataphracts


But I get your point if someone is a good player now they will still be a good player then.

However this is not the case currently. "good" players may not be "good" without a crutch.Using a meta build designed to fire pinpoint front loaded damage is so superior that it's a "skill" multiplyer.One trigger pull on target from a pinpoint front loader would deploy damage to one spot that would under common combat circumstances require multiple shots from laser weapons to achieve similar results.

So miss 3 out of 5 shots but still land 80 damage on a torso or,land every beam of a laser on target but have the target move and spread it over three body parts causing a fraction of the damage to a desired location?

Should have just used your "skill" and put PPCs and autocannons on a Highlander.

[Lykaon]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Honestly, AC fire rates are a mite borked.

An AC/2 fires about once every 2.5 seconds in TT. It's firing between 4-5 times faster in MWO.
AC/5's and 10's fire about once every 5 in TT. AC/5's in MWO fire 3-4 times faster, AC/10's a mere doubling of the fire rate.
AC/20's fire once every 7.5 seconds. MWO ones fire slightly less than twice that.

Figure they were aiming for 2-3 times and adjust accordingly, with 20's being a bit slower than double and AC/2's verging towards triple TT.

Where are you getting these numbers from?

Table top Battletech uses 10 second turns.

In each turn each weapon may be fired once.

Thus in table top any weapon no matter what it is fires once every 10 seconds.


Unless you are basing these numbers off the old Solaris VII dueling rules that used shorter turns and any mech with a fast engine and a ton of machineguns was shoe in for the win.(seriously those rules were borked)

[xMEPHISTOx]

Lykaon, on 24 February 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

I do find it kinda funny that "skills" is = to put autocannons and PPCs on your Victor or Highlander.

Yep I got me some mad skills so skilled I even put PPCs and ACs on other mechs like Cataphracts


But I get your point if someone is a good player now they will still be a good player then.

However this is not the case currently. "good" players may not be "good" without a crutch.Using a meta build designed to fire pinpoint front loaded damage is so superior that it's a "skill" multiplyer.One trigger pull on target from a pinpoint front loader would deploy damage to one spot that would under common combat circumstances require multiple shots from laser weapons to achieve similar results.

So miss 3 out of 5 shots but still land 80 damage on a torso or,land every beam of a laser on target but have the target move and spread it over three body parts causing a fraction of the damage to a desired location?

Should have just used your "skill" and put PPCs and autocannons on a Highlander.

Fair enough. Cannot argue with ^^^ as it may very well be true for some, assuming that (metamechs) is all they play well in ofc. I suppose that one would need to play a variety of builds to train themselves to be more than just a jump sniper and I think many of the 'skilled' players are in fact good in different mechs and builds, as it gets boring playing just one play style. Not only that but many of the good pilots are not so much good due to the build but more so the little things that make them good ie. situational awareness, map knowledge, mech movements to minimize damage and the likes.

[wanderer]

Lykaon, on 24 February 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Unless you are basing these numbers off the old Solaris VII dueling rules that used shorter turns and any mech with a fast engine and a ton of machineguns was shoe in for the win.(seriously those rules were borked)

Bingo!

And MGs were a whopping once every 2.5 seconds as well. Notice any similarities to MWO? Energy weapons actually hampered by heat, ballistics being very powerful, missiles somewhat in between? It even had rules for rapid-firing weapons beyond their normal recharge cycle!

TT is simplified as heck on weapons fire- and that's because if it was much more complex, gameplay would grind even in a 4v4...heck a 1v1. I know. I was sitting there back in '91 testing out the rules with Nystul in Baltimore at Origins, and I'd been playing for years before THAT.

That's why the Solaris rules never got updated, though they never got tossed out. It was one step too far in complexity for tabletop play for anything save 1v1, and there's not a huge market for that.