195 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Lykaon, on 24 February 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

(seriously those rules were borked)

Aye, and guess which rule-set our beloved devs in their infinite wisdom decided to base their game on?

[wanderer]

stjobe, on 24 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Aye, and guess which rule-set our beloved devs in their infinite wisdom decided to base their game on?

If they'd based everything on 10-second cycles, you'd be gouging your eyes out with slooooooow.

What's ****** up is they've managed to take the -worst- of both systems and then made said design decisions even MORE horrible.

Solaris hot and castrating DHS + ghost heat?

Solaris increased ROF taken to 3x-4x levels BEYOND that? (AC/2, looking at you)

Airborne firing without the accuracy issues?

Grade A herp-a-derp.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 23 February 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

Completely and utterly wrong, and a strawman to boot.

Believe it or not, but I want it changed (not necessarily removed) because I want the game to be better and not just an automatic default to AC+PPC, which is the current situation.


No, FLD is the dominant one because it's the most effective way of delivering damage. It has nothing to do with jump-jets. How many pop-tarts pop-tart with lasers or missiles? Why don't they? And if JJs were the culprit, the AC/40 or quad AC Jagers would be harmless.


Your suggestion is to change something unrelated to the actual problem, and as such is a perfect fit for PGI's so-called balancing thus far. It, however, fails to actually do something about the problem.

Treat the problem, not the symptoms.

FLD is effective if you can keep an opponent at bay and with some degree of distance. your calling my argument a strawman but you completely ignore the fact that the ac40 jager is a completly fail mech at higher elo. Why is this? The reason is because it needs to get in close to deal any real damage and has no means of defending itself.

On the other side jump capable mechs wich wield LESS FLD or equal do admirably better do to there ability to use there JJ to be highly more effective.

Lets break this down further. If FLD is the issue, then why dont you see more misery at high elo instead of the victor. MORE FLD, better at tanking, etcetc.

The reason should be fairly obvious. I hope I dont have to spell it out for you.

Treating JJ IS treasting the problem. Treating FLD is just treating a symptom

[wanderer]

Quote

Lets break this down further. If FLD is the issue, then why dont you see more misery at high elo instead of the victor. MORE FLD, better at tanking, etcetc.

Because the AC40 Jager can dish it out but it can't take it, and the Victor not only can pack more ballistic boom, it's able to do so AND poptart for good measure. A hill is infinite armor points, after all, and it's a rare Stalker that can hill hump with any agility.

30ish point FLD strikes for a heavy seem to be about the norm- PPC/AC-5 Phracts, AC/LL Firebrands, etc. AC40 Jagers have too much in one department and way too little in the others.

But it's both. Take away poptarting, and it'll still be the same weapons that deliver the fastest TTK. Jump jets just let you fire yours with minimal exposure to the other guy's.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 26 February 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Because the AC40 Jager can dish it out but it can't take it, and the Victor not only can pack more ballistic boom, it's able to do so AND poptart for good measure. A hill is infinite armor points, after all, and it's a rare Stalker that can hill hump with any agility.

30ish point FLD strikes for a heavy seem to be about the norm- PPC/AC-5 Phracts, AC/LL Firebrands, etc. AC40 Jagers have too much in one department and way too little in the others.

But it's both. Take away poptarting, and it'll still be the same weapons that deliver the fastest TTK. Jump jets just let you fire yours with minimal exposure to the other guy's.

if you take away (or honestly reduce, since I dont want any playstyle removed) jump sniping, then you have the rebirth of the brawler honestly. SRM and many other short range weapons come back into play and shorter playstyles become more prevalent.

Ton for ton, heat for heat, size for size, the SRM are the best brawling weapon (hit reg aside, hopefully fixed eventually)

You would easily create a new meta. So no, the FLD options would not be the premium people seem to think they are if you fixed JJ.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

if you take away (or honestly reduce, since I dont want any playstyle removed) jump sniping, then you have the rebirth of the brawler honestly. SRM and many other short range weapons come back into play and shorter playstyles become more prevalent.

Ton for ton, heat for heat, size for size, the SRM are the best brawling weapon (hit reg aside, hopefully fixed eventually)

You would easily create a new meta. So no, the FLD options would not be the premium people seem to think they are if you fixed JJ.

The ye old gausskitty determined that was a lie.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

The ye old gausskitty determined that was a lie.

#badmechisbad

same reason the 40 Jagger isn't viable

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

#badmechisbad

same reason the 40 Jagger isn't viable

Just like SRMs and LB10s are currently, actually less so. Back when there was only SHS, SRMs registed and lasers were feared, the gausscat was still on top of the pile, since it could instantly apply 30 pts of damage. This was without JJs, and the same thing will happen with Dakkaphracts and Jaegermechs, frontloaded damage will be king with or without JJs.

As it was in the past, the way it still is and unless the mechanics ever change, the way it always will be.

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 February 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Just like SRMs and LB10s are currently, actually less so. Back when there was only SHS, SRMs registed and lasers were feared te gausscat was still on top of the pile, since it could instantly apply 30 pts of damage. This was without JJs, and the same thing will happen with Dakkaphracts and Jaegermechs, frontloaded damage will be king with or without JJs.

As it was in the past, the way it still is and unless the mechanics ever change, the way it always will be.

before the gause rifle was nerfed you mean. Sure.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

before the gause rifle was nerfed you mean. Sure.

Gauss is still powerful, just not an AC15. On the otherhand, tri and quad 5 and UAC5s will brawl better than SRMs after JJs get severely nerfed, since they dish out damage faster, at a longer range, cooler and you can AIM it. JJs aren't the issue Varent, it's the FLD.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Gauss is still powerful, just not an AC15. On the otherhand, tri and quad 5 and UAC5s will brawl better than SRMs after JJs get severely nerfed, since they dish out damage faster, at a longer range, cooler and you can AIM it. JJs aren't the issue Varent, it's the FLD.

lets do some math there on that one shall we? Whats the weight of 4 uac5? what mech can you run it on and how fast will you be going? If you think thats a viable mech you can give it a go all you like. I wish you luck and you may continue to play as you wish.

Now then, the 3 uac mechs, the only one that isnt troll is the ilya. A very good mech I agree. Very strong, a hero in fact. So lets do some math now.

The ilya does indeed have a range advantage, Give ya that. However with that build in particular you will suffer to the occasional jam and it does run a touch hot. Usually at around 37-39% heat efficiency. Off the top of my head I believe thats the number. Thats also with an xl engine, since your wanting to use mobility, usually an xl 300 suffices nicely.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6d935f453d5cce7

more firepower, faster, some light poke, better heaf efficiency and devastating in close.

If you fix jump jets this would be an example of the trade off you would have, mechs that would be great at distance fighting like the uac ilya would have alot of trouble agaisnt a mech like that. By leaps and bounds.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

lets do some math there on that one shall we? Whats the weight of 4 uac5? what mech can you run it on and how fast will you be going? If you think thats a viable mech you can give it a go all you like. I wish you luck and you may continue to play as you wish.

Now then, the 3 uac mechs, the only one that isnt troll is the ilya. A very good mech I agree. Very strong, a hero in fact. So lets do some math now.

The ilya does indeed have a range advantage, Give ya that. However with that build in particular you will suffer to the occasional jam and it does run a touch hot. Usually at around 37-39% heat efficiency. Off the top of my head I believe thats the number. Thats also with an xl engine, since your wanting to use mobility, usually an xl 300 suffices nicely.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6d935f453d5cce7

more firepower, faster, some light poke, better heaf efficiency and devastating in close.

If you fix jump jets this would be an example of the trade off you would have, mechs that would be great at distance fighting like the uac ilya would have alot of trouble agaisnt a mech like that. By leaps and bounds.

UAC20 is a joke build, but it can dish out damage. Jaeger and XL195, SHS. Either 180 or 210 shots.

Tri ultra can be done either STD or Xl, 3 AC5 is easily done STD, as well as AC20+AC10, both very powerful brawlers.

Any one of the above will completely demolish that jaeger before it can get within 300M if you get stuck on Alpine, and even in a brawl, they can focus on your oh so squishy XL engine, while you have to hit multiple torso due to build in spread mechanics.

Frontloaded and pinpoint will win just about every time. Those are the issues, which the devs continue to ignore.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

UAC20 is a joke build, but it can dish out damage. Jaeger and XL195, SHS. Either 180 or 210 shots.

Tri ultra can be done either STD or Xl, 3 AC5 is easily done STD, as well as AC20+AC10, both very powerful brawlers.

Any one of the above will completely demolish that jaeger before it can get within 300M if you get stuck on Alpine, and even in a brawl, they can focus on your oh so squishy XL engine, while you have to hit multiple torso due to build in spread mechanics.

Frontloaded and pinpoint will win just about every time. Those are the issues, which the devs continue to ignore.

TBH standard is a joke on the jager, your better off with the xl. You can barely defend yourself anyways. Its easier to use speed and flank with it then to try and brawl.

And as I said, it is a trade off. You are trading off long range power for short range power. You can however easily make a mixed lance and be quite effective while using builds that do not just use FLD. Also on many of the maps available the jager would be highly preferable. That said as well on some the Cata would be preferable. Either way I hope you see where this is going.

Take away the Jump Jets and you create a balance in wich many mechs become viable again and all the metas change.

FLD is only big because of Jump Jets. We can argue this in circles though, as we have before. I think we should simply agree to disagree since you are on your side of the fence and im on mine

*hat tip*

[wanderer]

Non-spreading damage has always been king- it's what got Streaks changed, caused multiple LURMgeddons, and even ghost heat to deny mega-PPC builds.

The only difference changing poptart/JJ mechanics in this equation would be it'd be harder to dump a salvo and get behind cover, increasing your odds of being slapped in turn.

Beasts like the triple AC Ilya would just get nastier without 'Mechs that can outmaneuver it while shooting back. The broken bit has always been weapons that can ignore most of the 'Mech to direct all their damage at a single point. CT-seeking missles did it, AC's and PPC's still do it, lasers had their mechanics changed in MWLL and copied in MWO's development because before that, THEY did it too.

[stjobe]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

FLD is only big because of Jump Jets.

What exactly changes with FLD by the removal of jump jets? Does it suddenly stop applying damage all at once, all to one location?

No?

Then removing jump jets isn't the solution to the FLD issues. It may well be the solution to the pop-tarting issues, but it won't do diddly for balance between FLD weapons and non-FLD weapons. FLD weapons will still be superior if jump jets were nerfed.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 27 February 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

What exactly changes with FLD by the removal of jump jets? Does it suddenly stop applying damage all at once, all to one location?

No?

Then removing jump jets isn't the solution to the FLD issues. It may well be the solution to the pop-tarting issues, but it won't do diddly for balance between FLD weapons and non-FLD weapons. FLD weapons will still be superior if jump jets were nerfed.

FLD is only a major problem for smaller chasis. And it should be. It's a strength for the weight and size and heat of a weapon. It's called balance. Remove Jr and you will see a lot more weapon systems and styles of play.