34 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

So, talk on the boards today is about how to increase Time To Kill (TTK). Ideas about increasing armor, modifying reload times, tackling pin point convergence, have all been tossed around.

The thing is, none of them address the main cause of quick mech death: Focus Fire.

When you have a lance of mechs focusing down on one poor little enemy mech, they're going to go down FAST. Pin point or spread weapons, short range or long range, quick firing weapons or slow shots, doesn't matter.

Now, it appears the relocation of start points for lances was an attempt to encourage smaller skirmishes instead of blob vrs blob. And in some regards it has worked... but the default tactic of random drops is to consolidate into one blob... in order to focus fire.

Now, what I propose has no basis in BTech lore or rules. Nor does it reflect anything in Real Life. It is a purely game based mechanic which would need a hefty dose of fluff to account for AND require making players aware of it as much as possiable.

So here goes:

- To increase TTK, reduce the effectiveness of Focus Fire directly by providing damage reduction to incoming shots after the first or second mech

This DR would be provided for a brief time after the initial shots land.

Figures could be either a straight decrease of x% after the first for x seconds after damage lands.

Example: Atlas A turns the corner and finds himself against 4 mechs. Jager 1 opens fires first, connects, and does full damage. Jager 2 starts shooting, connects, and does 90% damage. Jager 3 starts landing shots and his does 80% damage. The forth Jager connects for 70% damage.

Or it could be an escalating DR.
Example, Mech 1 and 2 do full damage. Mech 3 does 95 and mech 4 does 90. Mech 5 80%, Mech 6 60%, Mech 7 20% Or even Mech 3 does 90% Mech 4 does 90% Mech 4 and 5 does 75% Mech 6 and 7 does 50% Mech 8 and 9 does 25%

tl:dr: Give mechs Damage Reduction for a brief time against all attackers after the first.

Ideally the system would still encourage lance focus fire to a point, but discourage more then 4 from focus firing.

I would add as well that LRMs might be considered exempt from the system

Edited by Dracol, 20 February 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[FactorlanP]

Smells a lot like Ghost Heat in complexity and non-intuitiveness...

I still believe that pinpoint damage is the real problem.

A well coordinated team should be rewarded with results.

Edited by FactorlanP, 20 February 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Dracol]

FactorlanP, on 20 February 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Smells a lot like Ghost Heat in complexity and non-intuitiveness...

Although arbitrary in application and still lacking in making it transparent to players, imho it accomplished what it was implemented to handle.

FactorlanP, on 20 February 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I still believe that pinpoint damage is the real problem.

Pin point rewards skill, which I much appreciate. Increasing time it take for convergence of all pin point weapons would be nice, but past attempts were plagued with HSR issues. Given the choice, I take reliable hits.

FactorlanP, on 20 February 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

A well coordinated team should be rewarded with results.

I agree, but in an effort to make a more enjoyable game, wouldn't it be beneficial to encourage lance tactics instead of blob tactics?

[Moogles]

Another way to hurt teamwork and to promote lone wolfing? No thanks.

[FactorlanP]

Dracol, on 20 February 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Pin point rewards skill, which I much appreciate. Increasing time it take for convergence of all pin point weapons would be nice, but past attempts were plagued with HSR issues. Given the choice, I take reliable hits.

No... Pinpoint doesn't reward skill. It would take far far more skill to fire weapons separately AND put them all into the same exact location. THAT would be skill!

Pinpoint is the opposite of skill. Pinpoint rewards Alpha Strike.

[Dracol]

FactorlanP, on 20 February 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

No... Pinpoint doesn't reward skill. It would take far far more skill to fire weapons separately AND put them all into the same exact location. THAT would be skill!

Pinpoint is the opposite of skill. Pinpoint rewards Alpha Strike.

Ok, I think you maybe referring to something other then pin point weapons. You really mean instant convergence of multiple pin point weapons, don't you?

Cause what you just said, "it would take far far more skill to fire weapons separately AND put them all into the same exact location. " Could only be done with skill if you have pin point weapons (ie. Ac's and PPC)

Now, if you are just referring to the difference between landing a laser shot all to a CT versus an AC/10 round, then I would disagree. Pin point rewards skill in this case because of the requirement to lead and hit a moving target. Less skill required the slower and larger the target. Lasers reward quick reflexes to bring the laser onto target and a steady hand to maintain it on a single location.

[FactorlanP]

Dracol, on 20 February 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Ok, I think you maybe referring to something other then pin point weapons. You really mean instant convergence of multiple pin point weapons, don't you?

No... I think you are confusing pinpoint convergence (I used the shortened term pinpoint) with front loaded damage.

[Dracol]

FactorlanP, on 20 February 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

No... I think you are confusing pinpoint convergence (I used the shortened term pinpoint) with front loaded damage.

It was your use of Pin Point damage that was ubiquitous to me.... seemed to refer to front loaded damage. hence my follow up post which covered both pin point damage weapon/front loaded weapons individually as well as instant convergence of pin point weapons/front loaded weapons collectively.

I blame the english language

Edited by Dracol, 20 February 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Varent]

I remember a few weeks back someone posted the idea of doubling the internal hit points of mechs. I really liked this idea myself. Would do quite a few things.

1) Increase time to kill.

2) Make the game more about targetting weapon areas specifically to eliminate weapons instead of just blowing off a chunk of a mech. For example if a mech is running a standard engine and it has all its weapons on its arms. It still makes more sense to go for the torso since many of your shots will land in the center and increase the squishiness while also eliminating the side torso will remove the weapons. However by doubling the internals you may core the armor but it will still take longer to get rid of the weapons by going for the torso. Where as if you have high crit rate and go for the arms once the armor is gone you can disarm them more easily.

3) Expanding on number 2. It makes crit rate more valuable.

4) It allows for more specialized game play in wich you have to take into consideration where you place your ammo since players may be hunting for it more readily.

5) It makes heavier mechs like the atlas just that much tougher and gives the big moving target a little more 'umph' that it so desperatly needs.

[Mystere]

Dracol, on 20 February 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

- To increase TTK, reduce the effectiveness of Focus Fire directly by providing damage reduction to incoming shots after the first or second mech

You have got to be joking!

[LauLiao]

Varent, on 20 February 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

2) Make the game more about targetting weapon areas specifically to eliminate weapons instead of just blowing off a chunk of a mech. For example if a mech is running a standard engine and it has all its weapons on its arms. It still makes more sense to go for the torso since many of your shots will land in the center and increase the squishiness while also eliminating the side torso will remove the weapons. However by doubling the internals you may core the armor but it will still take longer to get rid of the weapons by going for the torso. Where as if you have high crit rate and go for the arms once the armor is gone you can disarm them more easily.

I don't think this would work and here's why: The only way to kill a mech is still to blow through the CT or Engine, or if you get lucky head. Even if you spend the time to blow off an arm or a leg to reduce the enemies available armament, you are still making it take longer to kill because you'll still eventually have to blow through that CT. Now if every mech had all it's weapons in the arms it might be worthwhile to blow those off in order to disarm the enemy, but fact of the matter is that most mechs have some if not all of their weapons in the torso, so taking the extra minute or whatever remove a weapon or two still won't be worth the time over just focusing down the CT.

[Zyllos]

Dracol, on 20 February 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Pin point rewards skill, which I much appreciate. Increasing time it take for convergence of all pin point weapons would be nice, but past attempts were plagued with HSR issues. Given the choice, I take reliable hits.

Past attempts?

Convergence has never existed in the game. At one point, PGI was going to introduce weapon convergence time but for some reason, decided to back out.

But it has never been in the game before.

Also, remember, HSR (host-state rewind) did not exist up until about a year ago. There was a whole another year of game play before that without HSR.

Edited by Zyllos, 20 February 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[Varent]

LauLiao, on 20 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

I don't think this would work and here's why: The only way to kill a mech is still to blow through the CT or Engine, or if you get lucky head. Even if you spend the time to blow off an arm or a leg to reduce the enemies available armament, you are still making it take longer to kill because you'll still eventually have to blow through that CT. Now if every mech had all it's weapons in the arms it might be worthwhile to blow those off in order to disarm the enemy, but fact of the matter is that most mechs have some if not all of their weapons in the torso, so taking the extra minute or whatever remove a weapon or two still won't be worth the time over just focusing down the CT.

With the exception of the fact that many mechs have the vast majority of there armament focused on one side. In addition to this there are many mechs in wich removing one arm can be devastating (ac40 jager).

[Zyllos]

Dracol, on 20 February 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Lasers reward quick reflexes to bring the laser onto target and a steady hand to maintain it on a single location.

Lasers are also pin point. Just because a weapon deals damage over time does not mean it is not pin point.

Pin point convergence means multiple weapons fired at the same time will hit the same location.
Front loaded weapons means all damage is placed into a single point in time.
Damage over time weapons means damage is spread across a delta time.

Each of these are mutually exclusive, meaning you can have pin point convergence damage over time weapons IE lasers. The only weapons in the game that are not pin point convergent is SRMs, SSRMs, and LRMs.

[LauLiao]

Varent, on 20 February 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

With the exception of the fact that many mechs have the vast majority of there armament focused on one side. In addition to this there are many mechs in wich removing one arm can be devastating (ac40 jager).

But still not lethal. A Jagger with 1 AC 20 can still kill you. A jagger with no CT cannot.

Edited by LauLiao, 20 February 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[Lykaon]

LauLiao, on 20 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

I don't think this would work and here's why: The only way to kill a mech is still to blow through the CT or Engine, or if you get lucky head. Even if you spend the time to blow off an arm or a leg to reduce the enemies available armament, you are still making it take longer to kill because you'll still eventually have to blow through that CT. Now if every mech had all it's weapons in the arms it might be worthwhile to blow those off in order to disarm the enemy, but fact of the matter is that most mechs have some if not all of their weapons in the torso, so taking the extra minute or whatever remove a weapon or two still won't be worth the time over just focusing down the CT.

If a mech has say 60 armor and 60 internal on an arm that has a murderous AC20 on it or a pair of rapid firing AC5 (equally murderous) yet has 100 armor and 100 internal on the CT would it be the best option to core the mech or disarm it in nearly 1/3 the time preventing the enemy from utilizing it's firepower.

I would almost always take the arm off first given this option.It's easyer to stay on an enemy's flank pounding into an arm and not ever needing to face them head to head than to try and square off for the CT hits ( I am currently a medium mech pilot so this tactic is based on that) If the enemy CT is facing me it is highly likely all their guns are as well.

Ultimatley mech vs mech combat is about attrition of resources.Those resources can be as all encompassing as an entire mech or as specific as removing firepower from the that mech.The means to achieve a victory is trigger the break point in attrition where the enemy no longer posseses the means to win the exchange.It is always best to force this break point on the enemy as quickly as possible.

So exspend half the resources (time/ammo/heat) to destroy the enemy's offense by removing their capacity to force the breaking point on your team the rest is mop up.

There will always be exceptions to the rule like XL engines and what not but it's almost always a sound tactic to remove offensive power first a gunless mech is a harmless mech.

[stjobe]

Zyllos, on 20 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

The only weapons in the game that are not pin point convergent is SRMs, SSRMs, and LRMs.

And the LB-10X, of course.
And the MG, which has a random cone of fire.
And the Flamer, which has the same.

Edit: Doubling internal structure would make life much harder for Light 'mechs, with their relatively lighter armament and lower alpha combined with their natural tendency to go for the biggest target available.

As a predominantly Light pilot, I'm not overly keen on the idea. In fact, I think it's a bad idea. It's not the armour or internal structure values that are the problem, it's instant pin-point alpha striking; so let's do something about that instead.

My suggestion is forced chain-fire and a reworked alpha strike mechanic (extra cooldown and a cone of fire - make alpha strike an "oh shit" button, not the ordinary way of using your weaponry).

Edited by stjobe, 20 February 2014 - 03:18 PM.

[Lykaon]

LauLiao, on 20 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

But still not lethal. A Jagger with 1 AC 20 can still kill you. A jagger with no CT cannot.

Correct a single AC 20 can still kill you but,you have probably cut that mech's offensive potential in half for less exspended resources than it would have taken to kill it with a CT core out.


with an AC40 Jager I would probably shoot for the side torso most mount XL engines.It will have around 40 armor on an arm and about the same on the front side torsos.So this would be one of those exceptions.

But,What if it was a Victor with 2 AC5s on a right arm and 2 PPC in a side torso? Taking the arm is the right choice (under the assumption that doubled structure was implimented) The Victor has lost a large chunk of it's offense and it's most heat managable portion of it's weapon suite.The remaining PPCs have a nice minimum range to exploit as well.

Doubling internals may be sufficent to allow brawlers to compete with the "meta" frontloading pinpoint mech builds.Like in my example the victor would be butchered in knife fighting range by a dedicated brawling mech.the problem we have is our brawlers rarely make it into their ideal ranges in any semblance of combat effectivness with the current time to kill compounded with pinpoin front loading alphas.

[LawDawg]

Why.................are over 95% of the threads on the forums Complaining....., Batching, or asking for Nerfs?

I want you to sleep this one off and read it again in the morning. Crushing another team should NOT handicap you....PERIOD.

[Sandpit]

Sounds a lot like another suggestion that punishes good play

My teammates and I work well together, play well together, use tactics and strategy well, focus on a target, and get punished for it? How does that make any sense?