34 replies to this topic

[FactorlanP]

Maybe there needs to be modules that improve missile speeds, similar to modules that increase other weapon's ranges.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Charons Little Helper, on 21 February 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Though - an argument can be made - if there are a bunch of different metas at the same time - is there really a meta at all?

Deep man...deep

Still, I have played through Missile-o-pocolypse before in MWO, it wasn't terribly fun.

[Charons Little Helper]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 February 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Deep man...deep

*starts pounding bongo drums while wearing a black beret*

[LauLiao]

LRMs+Artemis+TAG+Target Decay Module=Short work of poptarts

[Khobai]

LRMs are absolutely awful. They need a massive buff to compete with direct fire weapons.

LRM10 vs PPC:

LRM10 weighs 7 tons, 4 crits with 2 tons of ammo. LRM uses ammo.
PPC weighs 7 tons, 3 crits. PPC does not use ammo.

LRM10 does 11 damage split up in 10 chunks of 1.1 damage
PPC does 10 damage in one chunk of 10 damage
Even with both Artemis AND TAG, you dont even come close to PPC damage.

LRM10 can be countered by AMS and ECM and even gives a warning and can easily be dodged
PPC cant be countered by anything and actually counters ECM

LRM10 has worse min range than PPC (180m vs 90m)
LRM10/PPC both have about the same effective range of ~500meters

LRM10 can't snapfire. LRM10 requires you to hold the reticle on the target constantly and maintain LoS for several seconds.
PPC can snapfire. PPC only requires you to hold the reticle on the target and have LoS for a second or two.

LRMs compete with slots for StreakSRMs (one reason light mechs counter lrm boats so easily)
PPCs dont compete with slots for StreakSRMs

So really the ONLY advantage of LRMs is indirect fire... which requires a second mech to spot for you...

Edited by Khobai, 21 February 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Khobai, on 21 February 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

So really the ONLY advantage of LRMs is indirect fire... which requires a second mech to spot for you...

You forgot about an LRM 10 costing 4 heat vs a PPC's 10 heat.

And that LRMs cause cockpit shake on the target.

I'm not saything that the running cooler & shake doesn't still mean that the PPC is superior overall - but you need to tell the whole story to have your argument be relevant.

Without taking heat & shake into account - a pair of ER PPCs are in every way superior to an AC 20 as well.

[Khobai]

Quote

You forgot about an LRM 10 costing 4 heat vs a PPC's 10 heat.

Because PPCs are more accurate and do all their damage at once, I would actually argue that PPCs are more efficient than LRM10s in terms of damage per heat. So thats one more thing PPCs are better at.

[FactorlanP]

Khobai, on 21 February 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

LRMs compete with slots for StreakSRMs (one reason light mechs counter lrm boats so easily)
PPCs dont compete with slots for StreakSRMs

Totally agree, except that I think you left out that LRMs can be fired without line of sight while PPCs cannot...

My bigger concern involves what I quoted above, and this isn't a quibble with you at all. I'm more concerned that Streaks seem to be the only reliable way to counter light mechs.

Perhaps it should be all hands on deck on Hit Registration until it's actually not a joke to try and kill a light.

I had a match earlier today. I was driving an Atlas DDC. An enemy Spider was pestering me. As he was circling me he ran into a wall, which stopped him dead.

I nailed him with an AC20, 2 LLas, and 2 SRM6+Artemis launchers from about 40meters. Dead center.

Now granted, I'm sure a few SRMs missed, since he is so small...

Of course, he went trotting away, barely damaged.

I honestly wonder if they should even try to balance anything before getting hits to actually hit...

Edited by FactorlanP, 21 February 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[keith]

Khobai, on 21 February 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

LRMs are absolutely awful. They need a massive buff to compete with direct fire weapons.

LRM10 vs PPC:

LRM10 weighs 7 tons, 4 crits with 2 tons of ammo. LRM uses ammo.
PPC weighs 7 tons, 3 crits. PPC does not use ammo.

LRM10 does 11 damage split up in 10 chunks of 1.1 damage
PPC does 10 damage in one chunk of 10 damage
Even with both Artemis AND TAG, you dont even come close to PPC damage.

LRM10 can be countered by AMS and ECM and even gives a warning and can easily be dodged
PPC cant be countered by anything and actually counters ECM

LRM10 has worse min range than PPC (180m vs 90m)
LRM10/PPC both have about the same effective range of ~500meters

LRM10 can't snapfire. LRM10 requires you to hold the reticle on the target constantly and maintain LoS for several seconds.
PPC can snapfire. PPC only requires you to hold the reticle on the target and have LoS for a second or two.

LRMs compete with slots for StreakSRMs (one reason light mechs counter lrm boats so easily)
PPCs dont compete with slots for StreakSRMs

So really the ONLY advantage of LRMs is indirect fire... which requires a second mech to spot for you...

this. as much as many of u HATE MW4 it did a amazing job with lrms. will not IS vs clan, but the way they fired, locked and did damage. they fired in packets of 5 lrms, i forgot the dam ratio to packet. ams could only take out up to a lrm 10. only certain mechs could mount ams. the last but best feature was how u could aim them. depending on what part of the body u locked onto and were lasted aimed it, is where they landed. MWO lrms just go ct...

[Reitrix]

Khobai, on 21 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Because PPCs are more accurate and do all their damage at once, I would actually argue that PPCs are more efficient than LRM10s in terms of damage per heat. So thats one more thing PPCs are better at.

Get back to me when my PPC can bend around corners and over mountains from 1000 meters away.

Comparing apples to oranges. They are different weapons that fulfill different battlefield roles in different ways.

LRMs combined with a competent spotter are crazy good. Hell even without spotters, Target Decay is responsible for LRMs curving around mountainsides at the last moment to make sure they hit.
PPCs require direct line of sight to effective in the slightest.

Its a tradeoff. Different weapons for different purposes.

[Sephlock]

Charons Little Helper, on 21 February 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Though - an argument can be made - if there are a bunch of different metas at the same time - is there really a meta at all?

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 February 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Deep man...deep

Still, I have played through Missile-o-pocolypse before in MWO, it wasn't terribly fun.

“Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was myself. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.”

[Willard Phule]

Also, keep in mind that each AMS system in range does 3.5 damage per second to a group of missiles. If there are more than one AMS in range, an LRM5 has little chance of actually hitting.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sephlock, on 21 February 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Would you guys object to LRMs locking on faster to jump jetting targets (with the reasoning that you are detecting their exhaust), getting their Lurmpocalypse flight angle back against targets that are in the air, and taking longer to lose lock vs targets that have recently jumped?

It doesn't make a lot of reasonable sense outside of punishing an unliked playstyle. So I see no reason to complain about your suggestion.

A bit tongue in cheek I know, and sorry for that. But it is a Ghost Heat solution Seph. One thing about TT I liked was fr every Plus there was usually a Minus. You wanna Jump up and shoot your enemy? Ok, Leg damage on the way down(uncontrolled), shake and minimal convergence.

[Sephlock]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 February 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

It doesn't make a lot of reasonable sense outside of punishing an unliked playstyle. So I see no reason to complain about your suggestion.

A bit tongue in cheek I know, and sorry for that. But it is a Ghost Heat solution Seph. One thing about TT I liked was fr every Plus there was usually a Minus. You wanna Jump up and shoot your enemy? Ok, Leg damage on the way down(uncontrolled), shake and minimal convergence.

Yeah I don't object to anything you said, I'm just trying to propose things that they may actually implement .

[Wildstreak]

Artemis + TAG + Target Info gathering (+ BAP) = mauled by LRMs poptart Mech.

Done.
In a Hunchback-4J.
Never met a poptart I could not drive off, sometimes kill and outright ruin his day anytime.

Perhaps it is not a fix for the big and slow LRM boats that are needed, rather people trying the mid-range ones that have speed. Will have a second ready soon as I get the CB together for it.

"What is ignored may come to seriously hurt you."

I think that is the real issue. Mention LRM boats, people think Stalkers, Awesome-8Rs, Catapult-non-Ks, the rare Atlas-DC, Highlander-733, Battlemaster-1S, maybe an Orion-VA (has potential but never seen it done), basically anything with 2+ launchers that can hold big numbers of tubes in the Heavy & Assault classes.

Rarely do we see medium LRM boats except the occasional Kintaro with several LRM5s (just silly to me). Trebuchets, Hunchback-4Js and now 4SPs, even the Centurion and now the Griffins (though whoever designed the launcher tube maximums on the 3M drank too much Mech lubricant) are still available. Medium LRM boats can pack their own TAG thus no need for spotters, BAP, carry close to similar self defense weapons, plenty of ammo (my 4J has 900 shots while bigger ones claim to have 1080) and, best of all, have SPEED. Speed lets you get into those closer ranges, say 400-500 meters, outside brawling but close enough to hit a target faster than at 700. Speed lets you run faster than a bigger LRM boat for backup if needed and to get out of bad situations.

Slightly different playstyle than the plodding, bigger LRM boats because you do NOT sit in spot and fire constantly. Helluva fun, more than those, "Park-n-Fire," lots.

Edited by Merchant, 22 February 2014 - 09:03 AM.