404 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

You have the cure for Burst Fire and convergence now. You just move laterally and the damage gets spread across your mech. DPS is too high, but it can still be spread. I do this and I am never cored, damage is always spread widely across the mech. I think you need to train the skill though as it does not come naturally.

[Cimarb]

Lightfoot, on 07 March 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

You have the cure for Burst Fire and convergence now. You just move laterally and the damage gets spread across your mech. DPS is too high, but it can still be spread. I do this and I am never cored, damage is always spread widely across the mech. I think you need to train the skill though as it does not come naturally.

This doesn't work for FLD, which is why it is the issue.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

This doesn't work for FLD, which is why it is the issue.

It does to a degree, Folks argue it doesn't enough.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

It does to a degree, Folks argue it doesn't enough.

You can make it more difficult to hit certain areas, but it doesn't spread the damage out. An AC20 will do 20 points of damage wherever it hits, regardless of what you do.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

You can make it more difficult to hit certain areas, but it doesn't spread the damage out. An AC20 will do 20 points of damage wherever it hits, regardless of what you do.

gotta define spreading the damage then. If you make the opponent hit the right arm, then right torso, then the center torso in three concurrent shots. Your spreading the damage, no?

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

gotta define spreading the damage then. If you make the opponent hit the right arm, then right torso, then the center torso in three concurrent shots. Your spreading the damage, no?

Gotta define damage then. If I shoot an AC20 at you, how is that damage going to be spread? It's not - every point of it is going in the same place.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what Lightfoot is talking about, as we aren't trying to find a "cure for burst fire and convergence", so this probably has nothing yo do with what he meant...

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Gotta define damage then. If I shoot an AC20 at you, how is that damage going to be spread? It's not - every point of it is going in the same place.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what Lightfoot is talking about, as we aren't trying to find a "cure for burst fire and convergence", so this probably has nothing yo do with what he meant...

I don't think English is his first language. Ill break it down though. What we have when someone fires a ballistic weapon versus another opponent torso twisting, is in fact skill versus skill. Knowledge of terrain, speed, quickness and angling your mech right can all mean you will be effective blocking the shot and getting the damage where you want it. The opposing player will attempt to track your movements and land his shot in between your twisting, He will also hold it and wait till you turn though this can in turn be evaded by proper piloting and working towards the nearest cover. On both ends its true skill versus true skill. The greater skilled player wins. With spread damage weapons you actually don't have the skill in this as much as you actually are having the game emulate it for you. Now that said it can still be argued that it takes skill to hold the weapon straight, etc etc. But really the movement involved is mind boggling, Spread weapons basically emulate what actual skilled players already do.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Gotta define damage then. If I shoot an AC20 at you, how is that damage going to be spread? It's not - every point of it is going in the same place.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what Lightfoot is talking about, as we aren't trying to find a "cure for burst fire and convergence", so this probably has nothing yo do with what he meant...

With this in mind however *as stated above* the actual question comes down to this. Do we make the system instead just automatically simulate spreading, Or do we leave it up to skill for the players to get to the point they do it on there own. It can be argued both ways.

[stjobe]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 March 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

More to the point, they decided to turn lasers into DoT weapons because lightweight hitscan high damage/weight weapons that can be mass-fired with perfect pinpoint convergence might *gasp* somehow be unbalanced if they also delivered instant damage.

While a heavy ballistic low damage/weight weapon that can be mass-fired with perfect pin-point convergence might *gasp* NOT somehow be unbalanced by also delivering instant damage?

No, perfect pin-point convergence + instant damage == unbalanced, when compared to anything that can't do instant damage. Hence why ACs and PPCs need to be reworked to not be instant damage.

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

With spread damage weapons you actually don't have the skill in this as much as you actually are having the game emulate it for you. Now that said it can still be argued that it takes skill to hold the weapon straight, etc etc. But really the movement involved is mind boggling, Spread weapons basically emulate what actual skilled players already do.

The point was that while you can spread out successive rounds of a FLD weapon, you can never spread out individual rounds. For non-FLD weapons, you can do both.

On the firer's end, the skill neeed is raised dramatically. Instead of waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger, you need to wait for the right moment to pull the trigger and then keep the weapon on-target for up to a second - while possibly both you and/or the target are moving.

This is the major difference that you seem to be ignoring in your argument; all other things being equal, the skill needed to put damage into one location only is much higher for beam-duration or burst-fire weapons than for FLD weapons like the AC or PPC - and the target can spread both individual beams/bursts as well as successive beams/bursts by skilful maneuvering.

Burst-fire mechanics then
* require higher firer skills (to get the whole burst on-target and preferably into one location)
* rewards higher defender skills (by allowing spread of individual bursts as well as successive)
as compared to FLD.

Edited by stjobe, 07 March 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 07 March 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

While a heavy ballistic low damage/weight weapon that can be mass-fired with perfect pin-point convergence might *gasp* NOT somehow be unbalanced by also delivering instant damage?

No, perfect pin-point convergence + instant damage == unbalanced, when compared to anything that can't do instant damage. Hence why ACs and PPCs need to be reworked to not be instant damage.


On the defensive end, sure. On the firer's end though, the skill neeed is raised dramatically. Instead of waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger, you need to wait for the right moment to pull the trigger and then keep the weapon on-target for up to a second - while possibly both you and/or the target are moving.

This is the major difference that you seem to be ignoring in your argument; all other things being equal, the skill needed to put damage into one location only is much higher for beam-duration or burst-fire weapons than for FLD weapons like the AC or PPC.

I Would say that is indicative of the amount of weight and size that go into most FLD weapons. That is the trade off.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

stjobe, on 07 March 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

While a heavy ballistic low damage/weight weapon that can be mass-fired with perfect pin-point convergence might *gasp* NOT somehow be unbalanced by also delivering instant damage?

No, perfect pin-point convergence + instant damage == unbalanced, when compared to anything that can't do instant damage. Hence why ACs and PPCs need to be reworked to not be instant damage.


The point was that while you can spread out successive rounds of a FLD weapon, you can never spread out individual rounds. For non-FLD weapons, you can do both.

On the firer's end, the skill neeed is raised dramatically. Instead of waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger, you need to wait for the right moment to pull the trigger and then keep the weapon on-target for up to a second - while possibly both you and/or the target are moving.

This is the major difference that you seem to be ignoring in your argument; all other things being equal, the skill needed to put damage into one location only is much higher for beam-duration or burst-fire weapons than for FLD weapons like the AC or PPC - and the target can spread both individual beams/bursts as well as successive beams/bursts by skilful maneuvering.

Burst-fire mechanics then
* require higher firer skills (to get the whole burst on-target and preferably into one location)
* rewards higher defender skills (by allowing spread of individual bursts as well as successive)
as compared to FLD.

For some reason people find difficulty in seeing this. Player A has a FLD weapon with the same stats (dps, tonnage, heat, etc.) as player B, but player B has a 1 sec beam duration. Given equal skill player A should nearly always win because even with torso twisting player B must focus on, face, and not twist for the full beam duration in order to maximize damage meanwhile player A needs only to wait for the beam to start, fire at a mech torso that is stuck facing and thus unable to dodge or spread damage, then start twisting while waiting for his cooldown to come back before turning to face him again. Even a moderately skilled pilot won't need more than half of the second duration of the beam to make the shot and start twisting. Given that, assuming that player B has effectively half as much dps to the intended component as player A despite having the same "stats" isn't an absurd notion. Seems pretty easy to me to grasp how that is a problem.

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

I Would say that is indicative of the amount of weight and size that go into most FLD weapons. That is the trade off.

Yep, let's ignore that several ballistics can be added to a mech without adding significantly to it's heat burden. The heat portion of the equation makes lasers (and PPCs) suffer much more on certain map (ie terra therma) and as such are also more situational than ballistics. They also can very rarely sustain their max dps for longer than a dozen or two seconds.

[DocBach]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

You can make it more difficult to hit certain areas, but it doesn't spread the damage out. An AC20 will do 20 points of damage wherever it hits, regardless of what you do.

But that's what its suppose to do

Edited by DocBach, 08 March 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

I Would say that is indicative of the amount of weight and size that go into most FLD weapons. That is the trade off.

The trade off SHOULD be heat vs size/weight vs ammo. Instead, PGI has had to add ghost heat to ACs/PPCs unproportionally to compensate for the FLD that was removed from all other weapon systems.

DocBach, on 08 March 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

But that's what its suppose to do

Says who? TT had EVERY weapon system do FLD - even LRMs, though they were split into five-point clusters, at least. PGI deemed FLD on lasers too powerful, so they turned them to duration, but left ACs and PPCs as FLD, which eventually led to ghost heat.

[Lightfoot]

I can't use quote or paste on this website with IE11, but what is FLD?

However, I can assure you moving laterally to your opponent breaks up pin point damage/ burst-fire unless the weapons are matched like 2xAC20, even so their accuracy drops from 100% to about 50% depending on your speed and distance. I usually pilot a heavy mech around 70 kph and by the time it is destroyed or the match ends it has scored massive damage to multiple sections. It is never just cored. Never. Not even before the Gauss desync and Heat Scale was added to prevent coring.

There is this natural tendency to want to look where you are going so many players never even try moving laterally. For starters though you just pick your path before engaging and then don't worry about it for 30-60 seconds of the engagement. If your opponent is just chasing or standing still they are toast. Because you will kill them with your pinpoint burst-fire because they are not moving laterally, and this is how MechWarrior is played. It's a core game dynamic.

I really hope this realistic dynamic isn't somehow removed completely. I think PGI has MWO on training wheels as it is.

Edited by Lightfoot, 08 March 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 08 March 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

I can't use quote or paste on this website with IE11, but what is FLD?

Front Loaded Damage. It refers to weapons that deal their damage as a single, instantaneous projectile as opposed to things like beam duration or buckshot spreads.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 08 March 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

The trade off SHOULD be heat vs size/weight vs ammo. Instead, PGI has had to add ghost heat to ACs/PPCs unproportionally to compensate for the FLD that was removed from all other weapon systems.

Im going to have to agree to disagree there. For the weight and size of the weapon systems overall I do feel its very balanced.

I dont know if you noticed it or not but thats why im basing most of the burst around the .25 second model. Exactly 1/4 of the laser beam duration for the medium pulse laser. I believe that the 'good players' will still be able to effectively do what ive been describing above and keep the status quo since many of them appreciate the game as it is while on the lower end of things if your literally just lazily sweeping your cursor over a mech and an opponent is refusing to torso twist the shots may get scattered over two sections. It appeases both crowds and it meets in the middle with a skill area.

It also allows if a defender is truly quick enough to get an arm in the way (probly on a medium mech since they are fairly agile) to block some of the shots as well perhaps. Again being setup around a skill model. The laser modifications ive may do far are moving at max at a .25 beam duration increase to a .75 beam duration overall. Wich still allows there to be a fairly significant change between the lasers and the Ballistics that meet in the middle. Probly long enough for any skilled player to truly have the laser do what its supposed to do for its weight and size, spread damage. While at the same time on the lower end of the skill cap will more allow players to feel like there shots are moving faster.

Benefits both parties, doesnt move the status quo for those on the high end.

Middle ground, huzzah.

[Varent]

DocBach, on 08 March 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

But that's what its suppose to do

yup, but people dont want it to do that because since we dont have role warface the light mech has to be equal to the assault. wich is bullshit and honestly once we have CW will basically out balance EVERY ENERGY MECH AVAILABLE. But I honestly stopped caring. I am actually at this point sorta just hoping this will be implimented and then CW will hit and people will realize how ridiculous it is and then want it changed back. Excuse my biterness but after working to try and attempt the middle ground over and over im simply tired of the other side of it whining when there whining has no true basis on a weapon system. The ac20 is supposed to be scary. 4 medium lasers is not. They want to compare the two items and scream unbalance because of heat size what not etc.

When you can describe for me in a book a mechwarrior being terrified of 4 medium lasers as upposed to the ac20 then id be glad to come to the table, those that want to break Sarna and BT so much.

#GettingAbitFedUp

Sidenote, to make it 'fair' im going to put in a FLD version of the large and medium laser. It will be balanced with CD and HEAT.

[DeathlyEyes]

If they put in burst fire autocannons, then they must put in slug ammo for the LB10. A better solution would be to fix SRM hit detection so brawlers are actually dangerous. Messing with the autocannons will only make brawlers worse as well while jump snipers will still have ppcs and some of their AC5s going on target, brawlers largely depending on autocannons will be completely harmed. Reducing terrain movement penalties and making maps with better brawler routes would be more effective to solving the issue. Any nerf done to general weapons in order to harm poptarts hurts everyone. Look at the gauss rifle nerf. I can still sync my gauss and ppc just fine together. The best weapon for counter sniping poptarts was the gauss rifle which is now useless for this because I can pop in and out of cover before someone can charge their gauss rifle.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 08 March 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[Varent]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 08 March 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

If they put in burst fire autocannons, then they must put in slug ammo for the LB10. A better solution would be to fix SRM hit detection so brawlers are actually dangerous. Messing with the autocannons will only make brawlers worse as well while jump snipers will still have ppcs and some of their AC5s going on target, brawlers largely depending on autocannons will be completely harmed. Reducing terrain movement penalties and making maps with better brawler routes would be more effective to solving the issue. Any nerf done to general weapons in order to harm poptarts hurts everyone. Look at the gauss rifle nerf. I can still sync my gauss and ppc just fine together. The best weapon for counter sniping poptarts was the gauss rifle which is now useless for this because I can pop in and out of cover before someone can charge their gauss rifle.

That would require arguing with people that want 4 medium lasers to be equal to the ac20. Good luck.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 08 March 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

yup, but people dont want it to do that because since we dont have role warface the light mech has to be equal to the assault. wich is bullshit and honestly once we have CW will basically out balance EVERY ENERGY MECH AVAILABLE. But I honestly stopped caring. I am actually at this point sorta just hoping this will be implimented and then CW will hit and people will realize how ridiculous it is and then want it changed back. Excuse my biterness but after working to try and attempt the middle ground over and over im simply tired of the other side of it whining when there whining has no true basis on a weapon system. The ac20 is supposed to be scary. 4 medium lasers is not. They want to compare the two items and scream unbalance because of heat size what not etc.

When you can describe for me in a book a mechwarrior being terrified of 4 medium lasers as upposed to the ac20 then id be glad to come to the table, those that want to break Sarna and BT so much.

#GettingAbitFedUp

Sidenote, to make it 'fair' im going to put in a FLD version of the large and medium laser. It will be balanced with CD and HEAT.

If you could put all four lasers into the same spot, you'd pretty much terrify anyone in Mechwarrior.

People forget AC/20's in TT can one shot every 'Mech in the game. With one shot. Hit. Roll a 12. Target destroyed. It's why the Gauss is one of the dominant TT weapons- because it, too can OSK only it does it at nearly triple the distance for no heat (and the Clan ER PPC falls into the same boat). In fact, being able to aim for a specific location usually takes tons of additional equipment AND is also a tremendously difficult shot...because it breaks the 'Mech damage system.

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 08 March 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

If they put in burst fire autocannons, then they must put in slug ammo for the LB10.

Should have already been put in, but MWO fails at giving weapons alt-fire modes, which is the same reason we have a flamer that does both functions at inferior levels rather than the "heat gun" or "damage mode" options in TT. Same thing would give us a reliable single-shot/Ultra-mode AC control system, for that matter. And Inferno SRMs. And alternate ammo modes for pretty much anything that has it in the game.

Quote

A better solution would be to fix SRM hit detection so brawlers are actually dangerous. Messing with the autocannons will only make brawlers worse as well while jump snipers will still have ppcs and some of their AC5s going on target, brawlers largely depending on autocannons will be completely harmed. Reducing terrain movement penalties and making maps with better brawler routes would be more effective to solving the issue. Any nerf done to general weapons in order to harm poptarts hurts everyone. Look at the gauss rifle nerf. I can still sync my gauss and ppc just fine together. The best weapon for counter sniping poptarts was the gauss rifle which is now useless for this because I can pop in and out of cover before someone can charge their gauss rifle.

It's not just poptarts, FFS. Go run a 'Phract around with triple UAC/5 or AC/5 and watch it buzzsaw through targets- the reason it's not tops is because right now, poptarts can do much the same with PPC/AC loadouts only with better defenses.

SRMs do need fixing, but even now...



24 SRM tubes on a Griffin say "you're screwed" with alacrity.