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Ngng #103: Summary Of Bryan Ekman Interview Part 3 Aired 2/22/14

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#1 Peiper

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:55 PM

NGNG #103: Summary of Bryan Ekman interview Part 3 aired 2/22/14

Original Podcast can be listened to here:
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=1745.0

Disclaimer: I do not work for PGI or NGNG, and while I attempt to stay informed like the majority of you reading this, I may make mistakes in my interpretation (which is in parenthesis.) [Any words in brackets are my editorial notes, and not the words of PGI or NGNG and are signed. - Peiper] This is not a word for word transcript; it is a summary, paraphrased and the like for maximum information sharing with minimal reading. I transcribe this for the hearing impaired, or those who are reading this at work or whatever and can't put on a headset/broadcast the podcast. -Peiper

Duncan Fisher doesn't like the planet Noisio. [sic]

5:35 Launch module details? Designed to solve 3 problems in the game:
1. Competitive teams can set up tournaments with parameters they prefer to compete in. Can set up mode, map, tonnage limits, number of players.
2. Solving the disparity of tonnage in public play. Launch module will tighten up the tonnage spread.
3. To help the solo queue players, to put them in 'an ecosystem that generates much more balanced matches.'

7:07 Solo players currently find themselves set up against four man lances in the public queues. How will the Launch module change that? Starts with Statistics.
  • Surprisingly, 84% of players drop solo. Not what you thought.
  • Typically EVERY match has at least 1 premade group. However, most matches are made up of a majority of solo players.
  • When a group IS in a match, it can – for sure – sway the results of the match toward that four man group.
  • Of those 14% of players who ARE in groups, about 50% are in TWO MAN groups.
  • 8% of all players are in 2 man groups.
  • 4% are four player teams.
  • 4 % are three player teams.
  • 1% of all players play 12 v. 12
So, the team issue in public drops isn't as big a deal as they thought. Nevertheless, in the public queues come launch module, players will be limited to 2 or 3 man groups. (No more four mans???) That's because some of the limitations they have to do with the weight class.




10:60 Do you think these stats will change with the new matchmaker? Will more people drop with their teams? Difficult to predict. Earlier on in the gameplay, more teams dropped. [When you could drop 1-8 men, I'm sure. -Peiper] Going forward, when they get community play, they will have to beef up the group queue system and adding a separate place for those players to play. When 8 mans were mixed with pug drops, it was a bad experience for the solo player. They're still looking at group queues to see if there is a good way to bring team play in with the launch module – but for sure there must be a way by the time we have community/planetary warfare.

13:20 With the return of 2-12 man groups, how will the launch module address premade groups? (based on a Tweet that said 2-12 mans will be in with the launch module) Or will this come with launch module? The first part will be making this solo queue with 2-3 teams only allowed in. This is because they've studied how groups drop and weight limits don't necessarily mean balanced play. [I think he means Embers and Victors only, let's say. That is, the metagame/metabuilds would still dominate pug play. So they are starting small to ensure the solo player doesn't get roflstomped over and over. -Peiper] 2-12 means roflstomps despite weight limits. The ecosystem of public play means that good, average and new players would be trounced over and over by teams. [Tiered queues instead, then, Bryan? -Peiper] We'll see a 3A-3H-3M-3L weight restriction imposed on the new matchmaker. You can drop in up to three of any weight class, but matchmaker will insure that only 3 of any weight class will be in a particular match. In theory, it should keep the games fairly balanced going in, and leaving the rest to the skill of the player.

16:45 Bryan continues to explain why. It simplifies the experience for everyone. [This whole segment confuses me. My interpretation is, we get to pick some mechs, then take them into the launch module with us where we vote on maps and game modes and stuff, and then we have to use one of the mechs we took to drop in. -Peiper] Then he talks about how you can load up your dropship with several mechs of the same weight class, say 4 assaults, as you go into the launch module. Before you go into a public lobby you choose a role/weight class BEFORE you go into that lobby, and for as long as you hang out in that lobby and/or drop, you will only be required to play that role. So, if you only own one mech, you don't have to worry about being forced to play a trail mech, let's say.

Okay, so here's my interpretation of how the public matches will work.
  • 1-3 players decide they want to play. They get in their dropship and select their mechs.
  • The mechs must all be of the same weight class (or role?) in each INDIVIDUAL dropship, but can be mixed in a 2-3 player team. So Tom could be a light, **** a medium, and Harry in a Heavy.
  • You take your dropship to the lobby where you sign up individually or as a 2-3 man team according to the roles you want to play.
  • The lobby fills up until both teams have 3 of every weight class on their twelve man total teams.
  • The players in the lobby vote on which map and what mode to play on.
  • Those 24 players play.
  • Afterward, the players and teams decide whether to stay in that lobby, or change roles.
  • If they stay, they play the same players again. If they leave, someone takes their place and they end up in their dropships again with the ability to select new mechs and/or change their roles/weight classes.
  • Back into the lobby when ready to drop again.
Players will have FOUR dropship loadouts they can set up in the front end; one for every weight class, where you can put your favorite mechs in. When you go into the lobby to meet up with the rest of the twelve players in the public queue, you will have access to ONE of those dropships (whichever weight class you wanted to play). So, let's say you all vote on Terra Therma for in your public queue lobby: you can pick a black painted mech with the best heat efficiency possible from your dropship. But if you get outvoted, and get frozen city night, you can take advantage and find your white painted laserboat and go to town! [If I remember the previous announcement correctly, you pick your map, then pick your mech after you pick your map. See this link for more: http://mwomercs.com/...-launch-module/ -Peiper]



21:00 Will this new lobby system effect the wait time between drops, and if so, how? Sometimes, yes, it can add wait times because there are more variables in matchmaker. However, in peak time, this might expedite things. This doesn't directly answer the question, but explains how matchmaker will make your team: Let's say you go in with two of your friends as a team of Jenners. Matchmaker will look to fill in your company with 3 mediums, 3 heavies and 3 assaults – doing it's best to put you into a group with similar ELO scores. Once the lobby has been populated, then as long as you keep those 12 guys continually dropping, you're only looking for another 12 man that's ready to drop – so you're not waiting for another whole team to be made, you're just looking for another team that's ready to drop.

23:10 How will ELO affect things now that weight will be such a significant factor in teams? ELO bracket changes? Currently ELO is based purely on WINS. What we're looking to do now is make ELO more indicative on player's skill, both team and personal scoring. When we do, we'll look to redistribute people via the new ELO metrics. They wouldn't reset ELO (they haven't done it yet, and don't plan to in the future). What they might do, though, is look BACK at all previous games a player has played – which they've kept all that data – and redo your ELO score based upon new parameters.

24:35 What do they track? KDR, Win/Loss, Damage done.... The problem is, a player may not have a lot of kills or damage yet be a very effective player on the battlefield. We have a long way to go before they can figure out how to track all that information. There's also a social element they recognize but can't quantify. “This guy played well as a team leader, gave people a good plan and helped the team win.” We don't know how to quantify that.

Phil hypothesizes that this new matchmaker might help alleviate the metabuid-mania that's happening, where people feel they HAVE to bring their Highlander 733C's and Cataphract 3D's just to keep ahead of the game. They can't win without them, so maybe with this new weight class (3-3-3-3) distribution, it may make it so that a much greater variety of mechs will be seen on the field and people can have more fun with chassis because they don't feel they HAVE to take a mech that can stand up to 8 Highlanders and 4 Embers. In this case, resetting ELO might not be a bad thing. Solo players will have a chance to start shining more now too, because there won't be two metabuild four mans on a team smashing everyone.

27:20 Russ mentioned that their might be an ELO reset, any decisions? No final decision has been made. Problem is, if everyone was reset to 1300 (average), then for the first couple weeks, it will be a stomp fest for high ELO players as they pick on the previously low end players. Worst case, they'll create five buckets based on previous ELO. So, a 2000 bucket, a 1750 bucket, 1300 bucket, 1100 bucket and 800 bucket. People will be able to move into the other buckets over time until things have steadied up once again. [I say, start everyone at ZERO. Why make it complicated. And if you want to make it complicated, just use a Gold, Silver, Bronze bracket – and let us know which bracket we're in, even if you won't give us our raw ELO score. - Peiper]

28:00 Stats will be reset when achievements come out so we can all start over in earning what we have already earned. People will have fun going for these new achievements from zero. [Really? Not this guy. I'll hit my 6000th game tonight. I don't want to earn again what I already earned a year ago. I'd like to know what I've already achieved, NOW! -Peiper]

29:10 How will the launch module affect community warfare? What doors does it open/what possibilities? Private lobbies puts in the architecture to allow for two mercenary units, with their own identity, to fight over a given planet in a scheduled match. [footnote 1] They also had to come up with a method to put factions into faction buckets for matchmaker. At any given time there will only be TWO faction buckets. Currently IS alliance vs. IS alliance and when clans come out, Clan bucket vs. IS bucket (in the public faction play)! [footnote 2]

30:20 Next map? In the queue we have a jungle map they are 'massaging' right now. They've started a base concept (attack/defend map). No ETA. The art team is focused on clan mechs. The level team is setting that up. (player levels/pilot tree stuff) The jungle map is looking gorgeous, but has some technical art challenges to get out of the way. Phil asks: collisions with trees perhaps? Bryan says no. We love collisions, we want to do it, but right now its a choice between collisions and community warfare, and that's an obvious answer due to limited resources. They would prefer to keep their promises on bringing out features (see State of MWO http://mwomercs.com/...e-inner-sphere/). When all that stuff is out, we'll put it to the community to see what they want PGI to work on next. Solaris? Collisions? Urbanmech football?

32:40 Hints on next mech? No. They're looking for a different way to present new mechs. Currently working on a Mauler concept. They have 2-3 more mechs in the pipe before the Clan release. They will release the clan mechs starting June, and like the Phoenix pack, it will take 8 months for all 8 clan Omnimechs to be released for C-bills. This is to make Clan Pack buyers feel really special as they could have a Warhawk 8 months before the rest of us. During that time, they'll also release 8 inner sphere mechs each month. If we like 2 mechs a month, they'll keep doing that. Players will vote for the speed of mech releases with their wallet. HINT: mech releases always go light, medium, heavy, assault for the most part. (So, next month we'll have a medium by that reasoning.)

35:35 Bryan says PGI/IGP dropped off the ball with concept art. They're working on redoing the MWO website, but Bryan assures us more concept art.

36:20 Red smoke consumable, and other similar types of consumable's coming soon. Look for an announcement soon. [Can I get a fart module that drives leg humping pugs from behind my mech so they don't use me as cover and I can back up when I'm getting pounded? -Peiper]

36:50 Thank yous all around.

[Editorial Footnote 1] Okay, so, does that mean my brothers in the LCAF are going to have to go mercenary to fight for planets? I know that this has been asked before, but it's still bothering me that the 6th Lyran Guards, 5th and 6th Arcturan Guards, 10th Solaris Rangers, and so on are going to be made into mercenaries. Some of these guys have been loyalist teams for over a decade. You're saying that in CW, they're going to have to either go mercenary or drop in no more than 3 mans to fight for their faction. I hope that by the time we get community warfare, they've included a provision to allow loyalist units to actually DROP as units without being labeled mercs.

[Editorial Footnote 2] Inner sphere alliances, eh? Two buckets? This reeks of [redacted] planning. If my unit is assigned to the Lyran/Free Worlds border, I shouldn't be fighting in the Chaos March for the Fed Suns vs. the Dracs. The idea that I'll be fighting on the FedCom/Capellan border one match, then five minutes later fight on the FRR/Steiner border bothers me at a core level. It's about realism, here. Dropships take weeks to reach targets sometimes. Telescoped time is one thing, but teleportation is too much! Also, the FRR has never been at war with any of the inner sphere. What 'bucket' to they get put into. Sounds like a big smelly pile of [redacted] to me. I'm in this for community warfare. I want to KNOW what front I'm fighting for and for which planets so I can say my unit has been fighting in, say, the Chaos March for the last six months and look: we've never lost a planet. DO NOT BUNGLE THIS UP, by watering CW down so much that we have to make our own planetary capture league just to FEEL like we're playing in the succession wars or later, the Clan Invasion. If we can't stop the clan invasion, and it goes just like the books, why bother fighting at all? Mind as well watch a documentary about it.

The heart and soul of mechwarrior is the factions we fight for, and the idea that we can, through our skill as a team of pilots, alter the very history of, and carve out our own legacy in the inner sphere. The only way to prove that legacy is to take planets and say: see those planets in Capellan space? Yeah, the Devil Dogs held those planets in Hanse Davion's name for a decade before Comstar backstabbed us and the borders were redrawn. Let us mess up the map. You can always reset it every few months. But let us change the world! Okay, rant over.

A final note. In one of the other segments I summarized, there was some really negative trolling and written attacks. I write these summaries for YOU, the people of mechwarrior to enjoy and to spread the word to everyone about what's going on. When I see the thread turn into a shizzle-flinging match between players and forum trolls, it really discourages me. Keep it peaceful, civil, and respectful. There's enough bad stuff happening in the real world, and we all come to this gaming world to escape that. So please, respect each other.

Peiper

Added the following tweet because it is very relevant to the above summary.

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#2 Deathlike

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:35 PM

View PostPeiper, on 22 February 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

24:35 What do they track? KDR, Win/Loss, Damage done.... The problem is, a player may not have a lot of kills or damage yet be a very effective player on the battlefield. We have a long way to go before they can figure out how to track all that information. There's also a social element they recognize but can't quantify. “This guy played well as a team leader, gave people a good plan and helped the team win.” We don't know how to quantify that.

Phil hypothesizes that this new matchmaker might help alleviate the metabuid-mania that's happening, where people feel they HAVE to bring their Highlander 733C's and Cataphract 3D's just to keep ahead of the game. They can't win without them, so maybe with this new weight class (3-3-3-3) distribution, it may make it so that a much greater variety of mechs will be seen on the field and people can have more fun with chassis because they don't feel they HAVE to take a mech that can stand up to 8 Highlanders and 4 Embers. In this case, resetting ELO might not be a bad thing. Solo players will have a chance to start shining more now too, because there won't be two metabuild four mans on a team smashing everyone.


It has more to do with bad mech options (aka the Awesome) that need some buffs/loving and less to do with the meta (although the meta contributes to a lot).

Just because I drop in a terrible Awesome or a mediocre Dragon, weight class will not help their status. WE KNOW THIS due to MM v2. Elo will not help... in fact, it exacerbates the situation further BECAUSE Elo is only calculated for weight class and NOT for the individual mech chassis (and ideally variant). That is the problem. Bad logic for a bad assumption.

#3 Roadbeer

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

Yeah, there is nothing in this interview that doesn't seem to contradict previous statements, tweets (including today) on the topic.

I'm SOOOOO confused. Hopefully the CC post this week will clear things up.

#4 Deathlike

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:48 PM

There was a match I played earlier today, which required my sacrifice in order for our team to get a cap win (in Assault). I had to die for the sins of my fellow teammate cappers. I unfortunately was not really well rewarded, although the team benefited from my death. I would like to think I had a contribution, but this game doesn't reward role warfare.

If there is a social component that is difficult to quantify, why not do a simple end match vote to by your peers to vote for your "participation" in the match? Don't allow yourself or teammates in your premade to vote for yourself (they will be biased of course), but if your other non-premade teammates feel you have made a contribution in chat (or by other means), they should be able to vote that you contributed. I'm not sure how much "value" that should hold, but when teammates give you the credit you deserve, then it's worth it. The vote should be only if you win (not sure how useful it would be to vote had you lost the match). It essentially would have to be a reputation type of vote... although I guess it could be abused, but I'm sure someone can at least find a way to debate this.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 February 2014 - 06:48 PM.


#5 Dymlos2003

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:52 PM

For your editorial number 1, what I got from this is that this is all for the solo queue. They are going to create a group queue as well.

#6 JDH4mm3r

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:08 PM

PGI...you are creating a disaster here.... a disaster that you dont want happening.

#7 Dymlos2003

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:12 PM

View PostJDH4mm3r, on 22 February 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

PGI...you are creating a disaster here.... a disaster that you dont want happening.


Not really, sounds pretty good for solo queuing

#8 Davers

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:44 PM

View PostPeiper, on 22 February 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:


[Editorial Footnote 1] Okay, so, does that mean my brothers in the LCAF are going to have to go mercenary to fight for planets? I know that this has been asked before, but it's still bothering me that the 6th Lyran Guards, 5th and 6th Arcturan Guards, 10th Solaris Rangers, and so on are going to be made into mercenaries. Some of these guys have been loyalist teams for over a decade. You're saying that in CW, they're going to have to either go mercenary or drop in no more than 3 mans to fight for their faction. I hope that by the time we get community warfare, they've included a provision to allow loyalist units to actually DROP as units without being labeled mercs.

[Editorial Footnote 2] Inner sphere alliances, eh? Two buckets? This reeks of [redacted] planning. If my unit is assigned to the Lyran/Free Worlds border, I shouldn't be fighting in the Chaos March for the Fed Suns vs. the Dracs. The idea that I'll be fighting on the FedCom/Capellan border one match, then five minutes later fight on the FRR/Steiner border bothers me at a core level. It's about realism, here. Dropships take weeks to reach targets sometimes. Telescoped time is one thing, but teleportation is too much! Also, the FRR has never been at war with any of the inner sphere. What 'bucket' to they get put into. Sounds like a big smelly pile of [redacted] to me. I'm in this for community warfare. I want to KNOW what front I'm fighting for and for which planets so I can say my unit has been fighting in, say, the Chaos March for the last six months and look: we've never lost a planet. DO NOT BUNGLE THIS UP, by watering CW down so much that we have to make our own planetary capture league just to FEEL like we're playing in the succession wars or later, the Clan Invasion. If we can't stop the clan invasion, and it goes just like the books, why bother fighting at all? Mind as well watch a documentary about it.

The heart and soul of mechwarrior is the factions we fight for, and the idea that we can, through our skill as a team of pilots, alter the very history of, and carve out our own legacy in the inner sphere. The only way to prove that legacy is to take planets and say: see those planets in Capellan space? Yeah, the Devil Dogs held those planets in Hanse Davion's name for a decade before Comstar backstabbed us and the borders were redrawn. Let us mess up the map. You can always reset it every few months. But let us change the world! Okay, rant over.



Amen.

Hey PGI! You know all that cool stuff you have planned for Mercs? Why can't we have that for EVERYONE and have that be CW?

Only 2 buckets??? So basically Marik, Kurita, Liao vs Davion and Steiner? Then the Clans come and all IS warfare stops and we all fight the Clans...for the rest of the life of MW:O? Please tell me I am misunderstanding this.

#9 SweetJackal

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:39 PM

My Hand Actuators are locked in sequence 00100 so hard right now, PGI has no idea. This is entirely about their 'plan' to release Clans Mechs one month at a time.

To be simple and frank, this doesn't work. This isn't healthy for the game. This is -nothing- like Project Phoenix in terms of design and you cannot use that design to plan for Clan Mechs.

In all honesty, Project Phoenix could have been 12 mechs that released one mech per month without problem. This would have just been gating mechs behind a paywall temporarily. Unless a mech was so flat out broken to the point that it used an infinitely better formula for it's hitboxes to the point that the CT couldn't be cored then it would dodge the Paying For An Advantage Situation that fosters claims of Pay2Win.

Why are Clan Mechs different?

Clan Technology is introducing entirely new build mechanics. When you put in Clan Mechs you are putting in equipment that can only be used on Clan Mechs. You are putting in brand new mechanics that only apply to the Clans.

As much as I might say that the Hero System flirts with (being) P2W due to locking builds behind a paywall (but isn't yet) the problems or advantages created by more optimal builds is minimal. When the Ilya was the P2W Mech during the UAC/5 Apocalypse it was only that by a Medium Laser. That's still an edge over every other mech able to abuse the 3 UAC/5 imbalance at the time, just a very slim one and no where near the tipping point that the 3 UAC/5 build vs anything else was at the time.

This all gets thrown completely out the window when you've suddenly locked weapons and equipment behind this Gated Paywall.

Forcing free players to wait to get the Phoenix Mechs is fine since you can use any weapon system in the Phoenix Package on any other mech.

Forcing free players to wait to get the Clan Mechs after the buyers have gotten theirs isn't "okay." This means that people that are paying money are getting early access to weapons like the UAC/20 where people that aren't coughing up the dough aren't allowed access to these weapons and will have to fight players using this weapons.

That is creating a situation where those that have bought into the Clan Package are getting an advantage over the players that haven't until the C-Bill versions of Clan Mechs heavy enough to mount these exceedingly heavy weapons are released. It's creating a window where "Pay To Win" will be a very real thing.

This situation exists because of "No Mixed Tech" and PGI's current release plan for the Clan Collections. This problem is even further compounded by murmurs among PGI staff that they will end up going Lance VS Star, which means that Clan Side of matches will be practically limited only to Clan Collection Buyers, segregating the player base and possibly making the game worse for those that have invested into it. There is the very real fear that those that bought into the Clan Collection won't be able to use their mechs in matches, which will result in a large backlash and hemorrhage high grade premium players.

Alright, now I've laid the foundation of the problem. Solutions?

First and simplest is to change the release plan to drop 4 Clan Mechs in C-Bill versions when the Clan Collections are injected into the buyers accounts. One of each class. This means that Free Players can use C-bills to get access to the tech even if they are not getting iconic mechs like the Timberwolf. Dodges the bullet entirely and allows "No Mixed Tech" to remain firm and it doesn't turn one side of Clan vs IS into a ghost town.

Second option I see is far more complicated. Allowing and designing for Mixed Tech.

Designing for Mixed Tech requires balancing the in game effects and usage of Clan Tech against IS Tech as one separate entity in a vacuum. This also means you have to balance the unique mechanics behind Clan Mech Customization against IS Mech Customization independently.

For Mixed Tech to work you would have to design the system so that a Clan Mech using IS weapons would be just as favorable as an IS Mech using Clan Weapons.

That is incredibly hard. The good thing is that it dodges the scenario described above, the bad thing is that it turns "Being Clan" into little more than "Being Davion."

Any thoughts to add to this?

#10 Zanathan

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:00 PM

Thanks for the summary as usual, good stuff.

I'm pretty excited but also a tad confused regarding some of the info.

Also I'm surprised that wins is the only criteria for the current ELO ...

#11 DragonsFire

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:18 PM

Great work on the summary as always Peiper, and couldn't agree more with your closing thought.

There are some potentially concerning items with CW but I'll hold judgement until I see some more solid info from the upcoming CC.

#12 Peiper

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:57 PM

View PostSuckyJack, on 22 February 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

Any thoughts to add to this?


3rd option. Allow players to pay a buttload of Cbills to upgrade their IS mech to clan technology. Everything but the tonnage and the visual appearance of the mech would change. Maybe hardpoints would be more limited. They wouldn't be omnimechs. They would NOT be mixed tech. They would basically be IIC versions of Inner Sphere mechs. (Clan upgrades.)

#13 Roadbeer

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:59 PM

View PostPeiper, on 22 February 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:


3rd option. Allow players to pay a buttload of Cbills to upgrade their IS mech to clan technology. Everything but the tonnage and the visual appearance of the mech would change. Maybe hardpoints would be more limited. They wouldn't be omnimechs. They would NOT be mixed tech. They would basically be IIC versions of Inner Sphere mechs. (Clan upgrades.)

That's actually pretty likely

#14 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:17 PM

have i followed this conversation correctly?

hatered of the 2 buckets pool because we want factions to be well defined {guess they don't want the player que split between 6 factions} but then we're coming up with ideas to pool together the IS and clan tech? seriously what's the point of pgi making all these IS mechs and then creating a system that allows them to either have their hardpoints changed to be IS skinned clanners or to invalidate ever using a clan chassis or IS weapon system ever. sounds like the game's defining characteristics would be completely borked.

what will proberbly happen is the clan mechs will become trials so you can use clanners just not customise them until release.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 22 February 2014 - 11:20 PM.


#15 Mordin Ashe

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 12:10 AM

All of this sounds really great, keep up the good work PGI. Looking forward to see Launch Module in action.

#16 Peiper

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:02 AM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 22 February 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

have i followed this conversation correctly?

hatered of the 2 buckets pool because we want factions to be well defined {guess they don't want the player que split between 6 factions} but then we're coming up with ideas to pool together the IS and clan tech? seriously what's the point of pgi making all these IS mechs and then creating a system that allows them to either have their hardpoints changed to be IS skinned clanners or to invalidate ever using a clan chassis or IS weapon system ever. sounds like the game's defining characteristics would be completely borked.

what will proberbly happen is the clan mechs will become trials so you can use clanners just not customise them until release.


You are mixing three different arguments together here. First, to allay your fears, it appears Russ has weighed in and said that we won't lose our four man groups. More to come, but none of this has anything to do with Clan vs. IS tech issues. I would like to see 2-12 man teams possible in the 12 man queues, and it sounds like eventually that may happen, especially by the time we get community warfare, which I think is scheduled for Fall 2024.

The other issue is a game balance issue, more than a faction issue. People overall want to fight a fair fight, and IF Clans have better tech, then there must be a way to balance them against Inner Sphere forces. However, since PGI is attempting to make Clan tech on par with IS tech, it shouldn't matter that much which mechs we use, and we should be able to mix them up in the same team.

The argument about putting 6 factions (plus Comstar, St. Ives, etc...) into 2 buckets sounds like it's going to make some of the borders completely meaningless. Not all Steiners get along with Davions, and Liao doesn't get along with anyone. And what about that brand new nation, the FRR? What, do they just sit around carving wooden dolls and brewing honey mead until the clans render them irrelevant? Because they aren't historically allied with ANYONE - or at war with their neighbors either. What the players want is a sandbox for what if? scenarios. This argument has nothing to do with mech technology.

Technology doesn't define a faction. Culture does. Fluff (lore) does. Friendships and teams in the Mechwarrior community ultimately define them. Players very carefully decide who they want to fight for and why. They forge bonds over years. They don't want to all of a sudden be lumped into alliances with people who they have animosity toward. There are plenty of Dracs who don't want to do anything to increase the territory of the Capellan Confederation. There are people, mostly Davions, who can't separate Katrina Steiner (who won't rise to power for several years) with Melissa Steiner-Davion's benevolent rule over a mostly reasonable population and thus HATE all things Steiner. The Smoke Jaguars aren't all fascists and would love the chance avoid the planet Turtle Bay all together and fight an honorable war. The Jade Falcons and the Wolves are in COMPETITION with each other for territory. WHY would they help each other gain more territory?

If we are to fight out a Clan Invasion, where the Clans could actually have a chance at ceasing Terra and/or refuse to work with Comstar and elect and IlKhan that won't sell out the clans at Tukkyid, now THAT would be community warfare. Likewise, what if the Inner Sphere stopped the Clan Invasion before it could even break out of the Periphery? What if the FRR decides to join with the Ghost Bears in a grand alliance and the Clans don't even have to fight their way through the FRR and can strike straight for Tharkad, New Avalon and Terra before the Inner Sphere can learn from their defeats and learn too late? Well, whatever, what I mean is: if we're NOT going to fight out the clan invasion, and we're not going to have a sandbox model that would allow us to fight out the 4th Succession War or a 5th made-up Succession War, then WHO CARES who has what mechs available to them? It'll be like MW4 Mercs where you can just go to a supermarket and pick up the latest toys.

PGI, please don't mess up Community Warfare. Please.

#17 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

View PostPeiper, on 23 February 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:


You are mixing three different arguments together here. First, to allay your fears, it appears Russ has weighed in and said that we won't lose our four man groups. More to come, but none of this has anything to do with Clan vs. IS tech issues. I would like to see 2-12 man teams possible in the 12 man queues, and it sounds like eventually that may happen, especially by the time we get community warfare, which I think is scheduled for Fall 2024.


yeah i know it's just that the thread changed from how-many-mans to suckyjacks how will clans start ideas. you yourself came up with the idea that IS players should become iic clan players vs clans. so on one hand you're hating the faction boarderlines being meaningless but then suggest we should all have clan mechs in one form or another and to hell with IS tech. no just no.

View PostPeiper, on 23 February 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:


The other issue is a game balance issue, more than a faction issue. People overall want to fight a fair fight, and IF Clans have better tech, then there must be a way to balance them against Inner Sphere forces. However, since PGI is attempting to make Clan tech on par with IS tech, it shouldn't matter that much which mechs we use, and we should be able to mix them up in the same team.



i don't think they're succeding at that, at the moment the chassis are nerfed fairly well, if the weapons are nerfed right down to the IS point so that 12vs12 is balanced then all we're doing is deciding do i want hardwired stuff for limited floating hardpoints or more customisation for fixed hardpoints. not only does that stink of hardly being like a mechwarrior game but it hardly seperates the teams, it's just as meaningless as your worries about the faction warfare. it's this vanilla vs vanilla stuff that makes the game stale and offers us no reason why we play it and it's why i haven't brought into clans. it might change and i may buy but if there's no change up in the tactics and gameplay with the new tech then it's just another bucket load of mechs when we really need stuff like CW.

View PostPeiper, on 23 February 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:


The argument about putting 6 factions (plus Comstar, St. Ives, etc...) into 2 buckets sounds like it's going to make some of the borders completely meaningless. Not all Steiners get along with Davions, and Liao doesn't get along with anyone. And what about that brand new nation, the FRR? What, do they just sit around carving wooden dolls and brewing honey mead until the clans render them irrelevant? Because they aren't historically allied with ANYONE - or at war with their neighbors either. What the players want is a sandbox for what if? scenarios. This argument has nothing to do with mech technology.



agree with this, there's no point in community warfare if boarders can't be fought over and each team is properly represented. the haters have said it for yonks we're not interested in playing the same mixed up matches watching some colours change or a win lose bar fill out. we need cohesive teams if we're going to have territory play or it will be a farce.

Quote


Technology doesn't define a faction. Culture does. Fluff (lore) does. Friendships and teams in the Mechwarrior community ultimately define them. Players very carefully decide who they want to fight for and why. They forge bonds over years. They don't want to all of a sudden be lumped into alliances with people who they have animosity toward. There are plenty of Dracs who don't want to do anything to increase the territory of the Capellan Confederation. There are people, mostly Davions, who can't separate Katrina Steiner (who won't rise to power for several years) with Melissa Steiner-Davion's benevolent rule over a mostly reasonable population and thus HATE all things Steiner. The Smoke Jaguars aren't all fascists and would love the chance avoid the planet Turtle Bay all together and fight an honorable war. The Jade Falcons and the Wolves are in COMPETITION with each other for territory. WHY would they help each other gain more territory?



i totally agree with you about the blending of factions being an atrocity and why the hell are their banners in the first place if they're just around for decoration and a few achievement ingame crap. however i have to take issue with you about what defines them. tech does define them especially clans and it's in very much to the lore that their was a tech vs numbers game being clans vs IS. the lore is centered around the clans technical superiority from their mechs being taken for salvage... because they were better and the genetics programmes castes defined their culture. pgi aren't giving us honour as a currency nor any rewards for honourable conduct so all we have to define the clans is their tech and deployment numbers so yes it matter just as much as keeping factions and affiliations in order. thank god stars are still on the cards but if they don't do it to start off with they never will {read ecm} so clan experiance will begin and end with hardwire limits and hardpoint swapping. big ******* deal.

and yeah i'm not agreeing that we should have 2 buckets i hate the idea as much as you. however you can't say "muh lore" in one hand and then give the finger to all the clanners who's culture will be represented by nothing more than a banner and a refit of the such simmillar mechs it will be a pointless exercise. you guys get to keep your lances your c-bills you'll get faster mechs or just as in many cases and clanners can't even deploy in stars. really why should i spend money on innersphere 2.0?



Quote

If we are to fight out a Clan Invasion, where the Clans could actually have a chance at ceasing Terra and/or refuse to work with Comstar and elect and IlKhan that won't sell out the clans at Tukkyid, now THAT would be community warfare. Likewise, what if the Inner Sphere stopped the Clan Invasion before it could even break out of the Periphery? What if the FRR decides to join with the Ghost Bears in a grand alliance and the Clans don't even have to fight their way through the FRR and can strike straight for Tharkad, New Avalon and Terra before the Inner Sphere can learn from their defeats and learn too late? Well, whatever, what I mean is: if we're NOT going to fight out the clan invasion, and we're not going to have a sandbox model that would allow us to fight out the 4th Succession War or a 5th made-up Succession War, then WHO CARES who has what mechs available to them? It'll be like MW4 Mercs where you can just go to a supermarket and pick up the latest toys.

PGI, please don't mess up Community Warfare. Please.


yep totally agree we need as much choice and diversity as possible to enrich the game experience and give us reasons to use things. don't nerf and shortcut into anything vs anything because we couldn't be bothered trying ways of balancing. the reason we have lonewolfs is for filler. if there's only 3 kurita guys then fill out the teams with lonewolfs for the push don't just say ah well we have 3 of this and 2 of that puttem together against the all popular stiener team.

CW needs to be faction specific and tech specific. lobbies are the anything goes place because the players set that up. the CW que can't afford to be as shallow as what we have for public drops now otherwise they should just not bother with CW and let the last diehards keep a map score on another leagues site. that's what i'm afraid is going to happen, vanilla vs vanilla in a beardies league.

#18 9erRed

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:36 AM

Greetings all,

Reference the introduction of new Clan and IS Mech's on a monthly basis:

If my memory serves me correctly, there were 6 waves of incursion/invasion from the Clans.

1. Periphery Action (Aug-Sept 3049) -22 locations captured
2. Wave 1 (Mar-Apr 3050) - 35 locations captured
3. Wave 2 (May-Jun 3050) - 27 locations captured
4. Wave 3 (Jun 3050) - 25 locations captured
5. Wave 4 (Jul-Oct 3050) - 52 locations captured
6. Wave 5 (Nov 3051-Jan 3052) - 78 locations captured

If PGI uses the introduction of the new chassis to coincide with the wave reinforcement's being sent, (they do not have to follow the exact timeline) just use that as the reason for the additional Mech's as well as the updated Tech designs we see as the invasion progresses. [could use a similar idea as the Phoenix introduction, just available each month.]

- backstory for the new chassis issued by PGI

Up until the 3052 timeline the Clans are moving new, and second line chassis to the IS area's they are fighting through. Their Tech level advances and changes rapidly the longer they fight the IS, similarly the IS discovers the Helm Memory Core and also starts to reverse engineer some Clan Tech. As time progress's some of the Clans start to move there entire resources and population into IS territory, factories included. Lost Tech and old Star League hidden resources are discovered by IS Factions and brought into the current development of IS Mech's. The existence of the ComGuard and there advanced Mech's and equipment is revealed. Wolf's Dragoons pass on Tech updates to the different Factions fighting the Clans.

The largest new Tech introductions happen in the 3058 timeline, but that is well after the Truce of Tukayyid. And quite a few years away for PGI, unless there is a time slide forward.
Ref:the Clans had to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid, sometimes known as the Treaty of Tukayyid, a 15 year (3052 to 3067) truce with the IS in which no Clan elements would cross the plane emanating from the planet of Tukayyid and extending to the edges of the Inner Sphere perpendicular to the Clan Occupation Zones.

Now none of this stops the Tech tree development, in fact it push's it forward with a vengeance. Both sides develop new and advanced systems and weapons during the "Time of War" and push them into front line elements as soon as possible. So I don't have a problem with new chassis arriving, though I would like to see a group of them shown and then released monthly.

9erRed

#19 9erRed

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:11 AM

Greetings all,

Notes on Faction players:

PGI has already broken some of the lore and canon from the individual Factions in allowing each pilot to buy and fight any Mech they can afford. Taken from the story line some Factions only fielded specific chassis and didn't have access to others. Mech designs were a tightly guarded secret and only fell to opposing Factions if they struck a deal, or a factory was captured intact.

Each Faction had specific chassis that they built, liked and fielded many of them. Some Mech's were only operated by certain Factions, so we now have a problem. There may be a resolve if PGI limits the market for the various Faction/House's, keep what you have now but some chassis will no longer be available to purchase if you are from certain Factions. This would add to the backstory for each Faction, having parts,weapons and resources for certain chassis at a cheaper cost if they own the factory's. But if that certain chassis you have now is not supported or condoned by your Faction, you will have to support it through the Black market. (your Faction just can't get the replacement parts if you take it to battle, be very careful where you use it.)

Many of the storyline and lore battles were identified by the specific Mech's that were fielded by opposing Factions, Merc's were the twist in many battles as they operated what they could afford and support. But the key was, only the Mech's that were available to each Faction were fielded. Only these Mech's had the supply train and replacements available. Salvage aside, if it wasn't supported, and you broke it, it stayed broken. (and needed to be supplied through some other resource, possibly the more expensive black market)

Additionally it brings into play the different manufactures of systems and weapons, allowing each to have some slight tweaks here or there. Example, manufacturer A builds a AC10 that has a faster rate of fire, Manufacturer B produces a similar AC10 but with a longer barrel and an increased range. These factories are in different Faction control so the market will not have both available for all the different Factions. (and may indeed be a reason to attempt to take control of a specific planet with a specific factory.)
- You could also place the same restrictions on engines, specialized systems, and all weapons. But this would require quite a bit of research from PGI to get the availability, location, and presence of everything in the game at this point.

Just some idea's and observations,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 23 February 2014 - 09:43 AM.


#20 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:43 AM

View PostPeiper, on 22 February 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:


So, the team issue in public drops isn't as big a deal as they thought. Nevertheless, in the public queues come launch module, players will be limited to 2 or 3 man groups. (No more four mans???) That's because some of the limitations they have to do with the weight class.



Sadly, what their analytics can't track is the number of Sync Drops occurring, as that would appear as simply 2 separate "groups". And there are many times I see legit drops of two 4 man lances from different units. But I know a large number of "Pro" Clans do it (I usually leave when my Clan starts....I have told them my opinion of it). And it can work a surprising amount of the time. Have had matches where I know the other parties involved, and seen nights where my own clan was connecting about 25% of the time on syncs (though at least sometimes on the other team). And I honestly don't care the reasoning behind it, it's still bollocks (and laughable to see so many 12comp "Pros" out having to farm PUGs. Also love seeing 2 lances from the same unit on opposite sides, and one lance just stays parked at their LZ til the other side mops up and then dies. Just love how those Pros have to deviate.).

So when Bryan explained the new matchmaker parameters, I must say, I am interested, but wary. Because it Makes "vs. Syncs" easier, for those who are legit in trying to face their own clan (aka, both load up in 3 mans of the same weight class, then sync). By the same token, I worry it will make it EASIER to do intentional syncs against PUGs though, or those who don't want to play purely in the solo queue. Just load and sync to 3 mans or more of differing weight classes.

So will have to watch this and see.

View Post9erRed, on 23 February 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Greetings all,

Notes on Faction players:

PGI has already broken some of the lore and canon from the individual Factions in allowing each pilot to buy and fight any Mech they can afford. Taken from the story line some Factions only fielded specific chassis and didn't have access to others. Mech designs were a tightly guarded secret and only fell to opposing Factions if they struck a deal, or a factory was captured intact.

Each Faction had specific chassis that they built, liked and fielded many of them. Some Mech's were only operated by certain Factions, so we now have a problem. There may be a resolve if PGI limits the market for the various Faction/House's, keep what you have now but some chassis will no longer be available to purchase if you are from certain Factions. This would add to the backstory for each Faction, having parts,weapons and resources for certain chassis at a cheaper cost if they own the factory's. But if that certain chassis you have now is not supported or condoned by your Faction, you will have to support it through the Black market. (your Faction just can't get the replacement parts if you take it to battle, be very careful where you use it.)

Many of the storyline and lore battles were identified by the specific Mech's that were fielded by opposing Factions, Merc's were the twist in many battles as they operated what they could afford and support. But the key was, only the Mech's that were available to each Faction were fielded. Only these Mech's had the supply train and replacements available. Salvage aside, if it wasn't supported, and you broke it, it stayed broken. (and needed to be supplied through some other resource, possibly the more expensive black market)

Additionally it brings into play the different manufactures of systems and weapons, allowing each to have some slight tweaks here or there. Example, manufacturer A builds a AC10 that has a faster rate of fire, Manufacturer B produces a similar AC10 but with a longer barrel and an increased range. These factories are in different Faction control so the market will not have both available for all the different Factions. (and may indeed be a reason to attempt to take control of a specific planet with a specific factory.)

Just some idea's and observations,
9erRed

well, most mechs, in at least small numbers were actually in every realm, just that they have predominant "house designs". And ATM we are all technically Mercs until factions are installed.. thus open access.

That said, in CW they need very specific rewards and benefits for driving their own designs, and drawbacks for choosing to pilot the other guys. That was part of the original intent way back in CB, but seems like it dies with R&R as a concept.





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