60 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

CCC Dober, on 24 February 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

As for the weapons situation, I think it pays to draw inspiration from past games. MW4 introduced IS weapons that were not accessible to Clan Mechs in a pure tech setting. Those were quite heavy hitters and even borderline OP because the Clans usually had no direct counter, such as Arrow IV and Artillery in all flavors. The range and versatility of the Light Gauss Rifle was something that gave the Inner Sphere an edge in the long range department, which turned the tables on the Clan ER PPC. Rotary Autocannons were equally game changing, especially in large numbers.

Same idea here... the hard part is: basically the IS weapon at the given time line are inferior - you always have a counter part in the clan armament that is better.

That means you have to carefully take a look -> for example the missiles.... how to decrease the efficiency of a Clan LRM 20 in comparison with a IS LRM 20 - without killing the Clan LRM 20... at all.
For example make Clan LRMs -> a kind of hyper velocity rockets .... much faster but dumbfire....maybe the same for SRMs...turn IS SRMs into lower speed guided missiles - and Clan SRMs as SRMs are currently - but again with more speed.
(No splash damage for Clan missiles)

Than look at the Pulse Lasers -> the Clan Pulselasers have more range as a standard is large laser....so what about increasing the number of pulses -> instead of 5 ticks you have 10. Beamduration is increased by 50% same for all other Lasers - increase the beam duration .... a Clan ER-Large Laser may hit a target with more force at longer ranges but -> you may need to keep the beam for 1.5sec at the target?
And now you can toy around with weapon cycle times...

Anyhow - its easy to make the Clans bad ... its easy to make the Clans good - the hard part is to make them well done (and I'm lucky that I don't have to do this with the current balancing tools)

[CCC Dober]

When you look at Clan systems in general, you will quickly notice that they are either more powerful and/or lighter by comparison, but that is not always a good thing. From an engineering standpoint, these advantages definitely have an impact on reliability, recoil, thermal profile etc.

In case of Clan energy weapons, this is already the case, as they are running particularly hot by comparison, which makes them less reliable and thermally handicapped. In order to deal more damage, they need to store more energy, which in turn cranks up the recharge time on top of producing more heat by default.

Clan ballistic weapons AFAIK are not handicapped when it comes to recoil, but they definitely should be, as a lighter weapon that is subject to the same forces usually has more recoil (Gauss and UAC10/20s stand out the most). Either that or they deal the same amount of damage with more and lighter projectiles (UACs in general), possibly producing more heat while taking longer to fire and reload.

About the same can be said for Clan missile weapons as they are generally lighter which could mean that missile clusters are more staggered when being fired, thus reducing stress on the lighter construction. This also means they are still firing and stack up heat while the IS version is starting to reload and cool down.

These are just a few examples that may help to differentiate Clan and IS weapons a bit, by balancing Clan advantages with plausible real world disadvantages, rather than arbitrary numbers/reasons pulled out of thin air. The simulation aspect of the game definitely demands some attention to detail and plausability.

[o0Marduk0o]

SuckyJack, on 23 February 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

My concern is about Clan ACs being locked behind a paywall for months when AC's dominate the Meta.

So why you talk about clan mechs? Make suggestion to fix the current meta. You can't fix a problem without talking about the root of it.

[wanderer]

Clan AC's are just highlighting the inherent critical flaws with AC's in general (and PPC's).

What PGI is currently in is one step short of jumping the shark entirely. If Clan equipment is available to anyone, there's no real reason to even have Clans as a faction. All it does at this point is muddle the usual endless 12v12 situation further when there's still gross amounts of correction needed in the current meta as-is.

The best "balance" for the Clans would be NOT attempting to make a orange into an apple and divest the two tech trees entirely. Not only "no mixtech", but "no Clantech in IS forces, no IS tech in Clan forces". Tonnage and numerical differences- that is, balance by force size - is the straightforward and sensible measure. Without real tech difference, it's just a cruddy IS 'Mech in a $500 gold reskin.

[Daekar]

Waaaaa!!

Sorry, had to get that out. Seriously, the OP is assuming that specific weapons will be unbalanced and having a tantrum because those unbalanced weapons will be wielded by a small percentage of the player base rather than having the same result as the LRMpocalypse. This caliber of Urbanmech thinking causes self-aware computers to commit suicide. What if the weapons are balanced-ish? Are we freaking out over nothing? Yes we are. Stop whining about a temporary pay wall that won't matter a darn and go buy a Clan package. Something big, $150 or more... that much content will shut you up for months.

[Sephlock]

Josef Nader, on 24 February 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Oh hush. Nobody wants to play a game where one set of weapons is so completely superior that there's no reason to use anything else. If Clan tech was totally superior to IS tech nobody, and I mean nobody but the most hardcore roleplayers, would play IS. Then we'd have exactly the same problem we'd have now, where everyone has rushed to the same meta builds and it becomes an arms race, only now the arms race has made 80% of the game's content obsolete.

Clans and IS being balanced against each other is better for everyone. Besides, clan tech isn't even getting nerfed that hard.

You mean like Quake? (Rocket Launcher/Grenade Launcher anyone?)

[Josef Nader]

Sephlock, on 25 February 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

You mean like Quake? (Rocket Launcher/Grenade Launcher anyone?)

Very different game to MWO. In Quake, the weapons spawned on the map and you were in no way locked into your load out. Anyone at any time could snatch up that rocket launcher and change the game, and there was no restriction on who could carry the rocket launcher. As long as you grabbed it first, you could have it for as long as it had ammo, and if you died to it you were back in the action in seconds. Control of these powerful weapons was a central mechanic to the game. It is a -vastly- different ballgame to MWO.

[Sephlock]

Josef Nader, on 25 February 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Very different game to MWO. In Quake, the weapons spawned on the map and you were in no way locked into your load out. Anyone at any time could snatch up that rocket launcher and change the game, and there was no restriction on who could carry the rocket launcher. As long as you grabbed it first, you could have it for as long as it had ammo, and if you died to it you were back in the action in seconds. Control of these powerful weapons was a central mechanic to the game. It is a -vastly- different ballgame to MWO.

In practice, once one or two guys started doing perfectly timed circuits, you had to make due with inferior weapons while they continued to pick up the quad damage, etc, over and over and over again.

Admittedly, being that guy was pretty fun, but...

[Josef Nader]

Again though, there was no in-built mechanics that limited what a player could use in a match like there are here. Anyone could bring the rocket launcher. Not everyone can bring an AC20 in MWO, nor should everyone. The game loses its flavor if you remove opportunity costs like that.

[pbiggz]

[Osric Lancaster]

I, for one, look forward to starting my stable of bondsmen and building my 'Mech scale throne from gleaming golden limbs.

o0Marduk0o, on 25 February 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

So why you talk about clan mechs? Make suggestion to fix the current meta. You can't fix a problem without talking about the root of it.

Absolutely, this. Reworking convergence and the heat system should have been step 0 of game balance.

As far as the UAC/20, it is still going to have a minimum re-fire delay of two seconds on top of what's likely to be a severe jam cool down, and you are going to be generating 7 heat per shell you spit out. It's deadly, sure. But It's not going to increase pinpoint alpha, and I'm not going to build a giant throne of severed limbs out of sub-standard Clan 'Mechs.

Daekar, on 25 February 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Urbanmech thinking

Oh no you did not just insult Urbanmechs. I'll small laser you but good.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 25 February 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[Alex Warden]

Daekar, on 25 February 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Waaaaa!!

Sorry, had to get that out. Seriously, the OP is assuming that specific weapons will be unbalanced and having a tantrum because those unbalanced weapons will be wielded by a small percentage of the player base rather than having the same result as the LRMpocalypse. This caliber of Urbanmech thinking causes self-aware computers to commit suicide. What if the weapons are balanced-ish? Are we freaking out over nothing? Yes we are. Stop whining about a temporary pay wall that won't matter a darn and go buy a Clan package. Something big, $150 or more... that much content will shut you up for months.

as i said before (which probably drowned in this thread^^) i am not so much worried about the weapons, but more about the possible nasty loadouts that (probably) come with that modular construction system ...

and

wanderer, on 25 February 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

. All it does at this point is muddle the usual endless 12v12 situation further when there's still gross amounts of correction needed in the current meta as-is.

since most of our unit don´t buy a package, because it´s simply too much money (not talking about "virtual value")
and many of us play 12vs12 the most time, i have a feeling that we can dump our 12vs12 evenings for a good while because of full teams of clanmechs in ALL weightclasses... (pls don´t forget my fist sentence here)

okay, one might say: "hey, there will be ISvsClans in CW anyway" and that´s true... but after 8 month´s or so there will at least be the possibility to use clanmechs ourselves. or at least some of the more advanced IS weapons MIGHT come into the game (which i doubt will happen anytime soon) ... all we can do until then is "test" performance of Clan vs IS... other problem here :according to PGI´s latest numbers we represent what? 1% of the playerbase? so our "tests" will have which impact? how representative will we be? close to zero i fear...

i´m not jealous or angry about ppl who buy their toys, shall they have them.. but i see some issues coming up for OUR fun... as i don´t want the fun of others destroyed, i also don´t want mine destroyed... all i ask for is consideration and a solution

if i´m wrong, okay and i know we can´t say for sure... but that also means, no one can say for sure it WON´T happen...

Edited by Alex Warden, 26 February 2014 - 05:35 AM.

[Bront]

Durant Carlyle, on 23 February 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

They did mention the release schedule in the latest NGNG Podcast. One per month. Plus, one I.S. 'Mech per month during the same time period. So yeah, two 'Mechs per month -- one I.S., one Clan.

Ugh. Bad idea if you want folks adopting the clans in reasonable numbers.

[A Man In A Can]

Uller Prime. 16 tons of pod space. 2 locked ES/FF crits in right/left arm. 1B 1M RA 2E LA. Guess what I can do?

cUAC20 RA (12t 8c),
3t ammo
cERML (1t 1c) LA

on a 30t light mech with double heatsinks that moves 106 with speed tweak and can't be killed with a single side torso blown off. And that thing's bound to be as short as the Locust, or Jenner.

Closest IS competitor?

Urbie Raven

Cheers to the meta.

Edited by Mechwarrior Mousse, 26 February 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[FupDup]

Mechwarrior Mousse, on 26 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Uller Prime. 16 tons of pod space. 2 locked ES/FF crits in right/left arm. 1B 1M RA 2E LA. Guess what I can do?

cUAC20 RA (12t 8c),
3t ammo
cERML (1t 1c) LA

on a 30t light mech with double heatsinks that moves 106 with speed tweak and can't be killed with a single side torso blown off. And that thing's bound to be as short as the Locust, or Jenner.

Closest IS competitor?

Urbie Raven

Cheers to the meta.

That Kit Fox also carries the armor of a maxed out Locust, and can only run at 106.7 kph after speed tweak. It would get alpha-striked off the face of the map pretty quickly.

[A Man In A Can]

FupDup, on 26 February 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

That Kit Fox also carries the armor of a maxed out Locust, and can only run at 106.7 kph after speed tweak. It would get alpha-striked off the face of the map pretty quickly.

Then "yawn, no problem" right?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

SuckyJack, on 22 February 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

Any thoughts to add to this? I'm hoping to get thoughts and opinions on this, start some discussion on what "YOU!" want to happen when the Clan Collection hits Live and how "YOU!" feel it will impact the game. Right now, with the information that has been provided I think PGI is on course to crash and burn by the Clans.

I think there's a reason for this. Now, hear me out- I'm not saying it's actually a good idea (or a bad idea) but I think I have a clue what's going on here.

See, PGI doesn't have a public test server in the way that most massive online games do, where it's up constantly and whatever new thing is being changed or added is being tested. So whatever amount of internal testing PGI does is going to be it when it comes to balance.

And as we all doubtless know, it is the large playerbase that is most likely to find (and wield) any given exploit, bug, or gimmick enabled by a new addition to the game.

So what PGI needs is a testing group, and they need a testing group that plays the new stuff against the old material to see if it stays in balance.

However, if they release all the clan stuff to everyone at once, then (theoretically) a large portion of the playerbase will just shift directly to clan material because it's new (and potentially overpowered by current balance standards) and the (reasonable) expectation is then that someone will discover an exploit and the majority of players will start using that instead of whatever older material is available.

By 'time gating' the Clan stuff, PGI then gives themselves time with that testing that they're lacking to figure out where the potential balance issues of the new material versus the old material lie.

This does require a somewhat cynical mindset, but given the current state of the metagame with a small number of popular builds in overuse and very little else even seen in the more competitive playing field, accompanied with the constant cries of how this or that or the lack of this or that is killing the game and PGI are terrible people, I can understand how they might reach the conclusion that anything even slightly overpowered by current balance would generate an intolerable mixture of copycatting and doomwailing.

-QKD-CR0

Edited by Elli Gujar, 26 February 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[A Man In A Can]

Elli Gujar, on 26 February 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Yup. That is exactly what is happening. Welcome to the Ghost Beta, where anyone who signs up doesn't even know they are the guinea pigs because the Beta tag is removed. Maximum placebo effect.

Not that I mind being a guinea pig...

Edited by Mechwarrior Mousse, 26 February 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

SuckyJack, on 22 February 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

My Hand Actuators are locked in sequence 00100 so hard right now, PGI has no idea. ........

Any thoughts to add to this? I'm hoping to get thoughts and opinions on this, start some discussion on what "YOU!" want to happen when the Clan Collection hits Live and how "YOU!" feel it will impact the game. Right now, with the information that has been provided I think PGI is on course to crash and burn by the Clans.

im pretty sure they have mech lubricant available on the open market to free up those hand actuators....and no, your not looking for thoughts so much as your trolling for others to agree with your demands. spends some cash or be patient like the rest of humanity with an ounce of common sense has been on these forums.

[Monky]

I bought a Dire Wolf ala carte. it comes with 30 days premium for 3 dire wolves and all the other doodads if you buy before the 28th of feb. 55 bucks is a reasonable price for 3 mechs + a month of premium, a better deal than the 50% off hero mechs (minus the accumumlated cbill bonus over time) imo.