194 replies to this topic

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

i rarely pilot light mechs, i think you may have me confused with someone

[Mycrus]

Lurms are okay where they are now... In fact they need a slight buff in my opinion...

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

Mycrus, on 23 February 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Lurms are okay where they are now... In fact they need a slight buff in my opinion...

I agree, he is just butthurt because he wants to circle of death a player unimpeded....mad because LRMS make him take cover

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

If you realy can't stand LRM's give it a couple of week until they change the trial mechs. Then it will go back to ac's guass, ppc, or whatever flavor is next.

Actually had a ppc heavy game yesterday. And had not seen that since ghost heat.

[Joe Decker]

LRM's are not the Problem atm. I see them more as completely worthless if the enemy Team knows how to handle them. They might be a good secondary Weapon Choice to support or inhibition-fire. But as primary they are worthless.

Use Cover, ECM, AMS in that Order and you won't have too much Problems with them. Especially in a medium you got the Speed to evade them. In a heavy or Assault Mech you will have much more Problems with them.

I agree that it is sometimes annoying to see how many Players react on LRM Usage But that is Pugging. There are many more annoying Things that Puggers do - and even it is annoying, you got to live with it.

Don't go back if LRM's are on you, go forward. Post Position of MB's and then attack them short Range.

Killing MB's is Fun

[Joe Decker]

Mycrus, on 23 February 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Lurms are okay where they are now... In fact they need a slight buff in my opinion...

Indeed the Speed of LRM's could use a good Buff. Then they might get valid again somewhere as primary Weapon. And NO I AM NOT A LRM BOAT DRIVER 95% of the Time

Edited by Joe Decker, 23 February 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[WildeKarde]

PUG games vary in how the enemy use LRM's. Some games they are playing solo and the shots are low numbers, you're near cover and can minimise the damage then you have the games you get caught out of cover and your view changes to lrms hitting you (but only for a short time before you die).

I've even had game this weekend where stepped around a hill (on canyon map) to help attack 2 lights who had appeared, shot the large laser one for a light to start towards me. Hit him again as he closed only to hear LRM warning, tried to pull back around the corner (not so easy in a hvy). He wasn't even in range of my medium laser or SRM's before I saw the TAG from him and nothing after that but lrms hitting (for the remaining 30sec of my game).

Charging in with your mech isn't good as bigger mechs need to position themselves to be effective, occasionally you can break their line with a mad charge but not that often. LRM's are just one tactic that can be effective, I've seen games with what seems to be all the enemy mechs dropping air strikes at the same time on your team.

The old phrase advised no plan survives contact with the enemy, it applies especially when your in a big lump of scrap that turns like an oil tanker.

[Amsro]

The Trial Stalker on chainfire is ZZzzzeasy!

GGclose,

but if you aren't shell shocked it is also VERY side torso fragile.

[Daggett]

Regarding Cowards:
There is often a reason why Assaults are not storming forward and wait instead.
First, there are two philosophies. One says the assaults should go first because they can take some focus fire. The other one however says that heavies and mediums should go first because assaults are slowing down the following team in chokepoints and would therefore take too much damage where mediums could evade some with their speed.

Both philosophies are probably valid so it may be that the assault is just waiting for faster mechs to go first so he is not slowing down the push. Granted, when following this philosophy the player should inform the team that he won't go first.

Second, some assaults are pure brawler builds lacking long-range weaponry.
The pilot of such a mech needs to be patient and wait for the brawl to start. So he is unable to do much during the sniping phase.

And it would also be bad to push forward and close the gap because the brawler should be the last one to get focused on during the push because he needs all his armor for the actual brawl. It is much more efficient to let the long-range and fast guys take damage first because a poptart without armor is still very deadly because he can shoot from safe positions. The brawler however is dead meat when he loses most of his armor trying to close the gap.

As you have probably seen, this was also an example when the 'assaults go last' philosophy is the better one.

Analogue to this a long-range assault packed full with large lasers and autocannons may rather follow the "assaults first" philosophy because they will do equally damage in close combat than on long range and can still be effective after tanking serious damage when the push is completed.

Of cause there still are cowards which can hurt the team by being too passive. But i think a lot of 'cowardly-looking' mechs have a good reason to do so. They simply know that they would not accomplish much by pushing forward.


Regarding LRMs:
I have not experienced what you did. Sure there is a lot of LRM fire due to the trial stalker.
But most of 'em are using LRMs wrong. They are standing too far away and most of their missiles miss.
The only dangerous LRMs are the ones fired between 200-600m.
And by getting that near the LRM boat is in reach to focus some fire on.

The ones standing at 900m and just pressing the trigger does not need to be flanked. Their missiles can easily be evaded.
And flanking those guys is not the task of mediums or even heavier mechs. Just type their location in chat (e.g. "lone LRM boat at F6") and a competent light pilot will thank you for the free kill.

If not than you either have no competent lights or they too think that the 900m LRM boat is no current threat and can be dispatched later.


Regarding lights:
You said you are playing mediums. When there is a mech class destined for killing lights it's the medium. You are nimble enough to hit them with some aiming skill, have better weaponry and more armor. A medium should be able to take on a light all the time unless you are stuffed with LRMs and PPCs. Additionally you should be near some mates who help you fighting the light. If not, you did something terribly wrong.

And i don't see a problem hugging a wall to block incoming LRMs while protecting your backside from a light and be able to shoot him. Just press your back to that building/hill. This works all the time unless the enemy managed to fire LRMs from your flank. But this is not the LRMs problem, it just means that the enemy team played better and managed to surround your team. In such a situation every weapon can shred you easily.


To sum it up:
Most situations where i took serious damage from LRMs have been:
- My own fault by being in too open terrain (when in an atlas, even standing only 50m away from the next cover is considered as open terrain ).
- The enemy team managed to outsmart my own team and surrounded us.
- The enemy LRM boats are smart and engage me between 200-600m while i am distracted with brawling. In that case i either try to take the brawl into a more covered area (or even stop brawling), or i seek out the LRM boat and take the brawl to him when the situation allows.

Those are the only three reasons i can currently think of when LRMs are dangerous.

Edited by Daggett, 23 February 2014 - 05:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Enzlaved, on 23 February 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

First of all i'm playing this game about 5 to 6 weeks and if the following doesn't happen, im doing pretty good for my thoughts.

1. Cowards..... there are lots of ppl in Assault Mechs who just hides behind the others and don't wanna make a step forward before others in lighter mechs dont do it.

I have seen Atlas Mechs waiting until the Battle is almost over, then step out with 100% armor and kill the rest of the enemies.. Meanwhile they hiding in a map's corner and just doing nothing. Doesn't matter wich type of game (Conquest, Assault, Skirmish) is played.

2. Freaking LRM rain. one or two fast light mechs are enough to keep track of the target and you will get ****** by like 1000 LRMs. AMS sucks and you cant always hide behind stuff when there is somebody in a light mech wants to shoot your back. You have to move!

Until the Trial Stalker appeared it wasn't that bad like it is right now. Everybody is just hiding somewhere, standing still while pushing one button and thats it. How poor and annoying is that?

And to be honest, lots of ppl just dont have the brain to flank the enemy and take out the LRM suckers. Even Atlas, Highlander and other Heavy/Assault Mechs are only carrying LRMs with them and don't take a step forward... just launching one LRM wave after another and this isn't funny anymore. Players like this should mark and keep their targets by themselves to avoid this goddamn annoying playstile. One damn Firestarter (who doesn't take any serious dmg for his 30 tons by the way) is enough and i'm melted by thousands of missiles... even while trying to dodge them behind hills/houses or whatever.

THIS JUST SUCKS.

Flame on!

oh and:

1. i play fast medium mechs, everyone is carrying AMS,

2. i'm good in dodging missiles IF they come from one or two locations but its senseless if they swarm out of like 5 or more mechs, each with at least one LRM 15 and there is no bridge where i can hide underneath.

3. i have a brain to think tactical but i'm mostly alone when it comes to flanking or taking out the LRM boats.

4. no, i'm not a good loser. i can lose a match no matter how i will be defeated EXCEPT when i get melted by LRMs aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall day long without any chance.

its okay for me to die to a 2xAC20 Jager, or a brawling Atlas or whatever kills me while active fighting me.. Its my fault to die then... But its a pain in the ass when there's another game where i just die because of so many missiles.

5. Every game i play where's almost no LRM suckers on each side is ALLWAYS a good game because the players are thinking about what they do first and... thats the point... they fight.

1) Assaults have a tough time getting infront of lighter faster Mechs... Comes with being big and heavy. You want the Assaults to Lead, STAY BEHIND THEM! Otherwise, if you are in front of them They cannot catch up.

2) Sorry but the purpose of LONG range missiles is to pound the enemy into a easy to mop up paste before moving in to mop up. I know a lot of folks don't like it but that is a good fighting stratagy. And we are playing a fighting game.

3) Are you PUGging in silence? Team work is much better in a Premade or a PUG group on TS3 servers. Devout PUGs don't care for this, but that is the truth. You want better team work, get on comms with 3 other players who want to work together.

4) Speed, Cover and ECM are very good counters for LRM rain.

5) I beg to differ. The LRM players are fighting the Long Bomb Game. Your complaint is like being mad cause you can't stop the pass in a football game and saying its not sporting that the opponent keeps throwing bombs, while you are trying to play a ground game.

I am not trying to be insulting or demeaning, but there is more than 3 ways to play the game. Having effective Fire Support does change the tempo of the battle, but that IS the point of Fire Support.

[Colby Boucher]

All roads can lead to victory. Play how you want to play, see other player's tactics as a challenge to your style of play's dominance. Find a way to beat them. Mostly, it's map control and movement. If you are getting smashed by a crapload of LRMs than it's probably safe to say that they would just melt in a close-range fight. Get some friends to help spread the damage and push forward. Or, better yet, let them run out of ammo.

[Joseph Mallan]

Colby Boucher, on 23 February 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

All roads can lead to victory. Play how you want to play, see other player's tactics as a challenge to your style of play's dominance. Find a way to beat them. Mostly, it's map control and movement. If you are getting smashed by a crapload of LRMs than it's probably safe to say that they would just melt in a close-range fight. Get some friends to help spread the damage and push forward. Or, better yet, let them run out of ammo.

You get it Sir!

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

You get it Sir!

Although relevant to understanding how to be a good MWO pilot, it isn't relevant to "game play balance".

As both sides or differing roles can both exercise good tactics and skill on an equal footing effectively negating this as a recognised balance. Though differences in skill and use of good tactics should separate pilots and teamwork and effective use rewarded accordingly.

In other words people taking about game play balance on a more objective sense aren't concerned with the skill/applied tactics separation and this should remain. Otherwise we would then be starting to apply dynamic adjustments to the game mechanics to vary based on skill level or ability, which of course would not be desirable.

Thus all you are left with is the differences in tech or applied mechanics that relate to the underlying form in the meta as to where disparities exist.

12 Highlanders vs 12 Hunchbacks, which would win most consistently if they both exercised best use of tactics and skill for those Mechs in the current game?

I'm hoping the above question is rhetorical, and that most of the time if not all the HGNs would simply over power and not allow the HBK's to use their mobility to any effect. Yet the sheer damage potential and armour for the HGN's proving to be the winning factor.

Hence the reason for the need for tonnage restrictions. Though interestingly of course the HGN still a clear choice in the Meta even with this being applied.

The above example is not a common arrangement however in terms of Matches, but it is a plausible way of demonstrating that despite best tactics and skill, sometimes it is just the game design with the applied mechanics that causes issues in game balance.

[Sheraf]

Enzlaved, on 23 February 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

Hi,

thanks for answer.

after one week playing i already knew the maps and know what to do or wich coordinates the players are prefering to attack/defend, thx for that.

The map in your link is the best example... running up the hill at H9 and defend it is the key because everybody just meet in the center of the maps and wanna start a brawl... another point are the open field underneath it.. good for any LRM launchers.
But there are still players who dont get it... standing in front of the hill and getting killed be those who where faster up there.

i've had two matches on this map earlier today and everytime i was the only one who just runs up the hill before the enemy could take it... i took a look at the (mini)map and my teammates where just standing around, waiting until somebody else did the first step. meanwhile the opposing team rushed the mountain and almost killed me.

THEN my teammates started to charge the hill but it was too late, getting shoot into pieces from up there like rabbits.

i just don't get it...

another thing i dont get : LRMs have a minimum and maximum range, all the idiots are shooting whenever they get a lock, doesnt matter how far or how near they got me. as soon as i make a step out of cover i hear that damn sound... not only once or twice.. no it just keeps talking "warning, Incoming Missiles" "warning, Incoming Missiles" "warning, Incoming Missiles" "warning, Incoming Missiles" "warning, Incoming Missiles" "warning, Incoming Missiles" "warning, Incoming Missiles"

then i know.. ok, its again a game like it is in 90% of the games at these times.. poor, boring, annoying, frustrating....

If you still get hit by LRM then you don't really know the map yet. Why don't you try using LRM yourself, see if it brings you any good?

[BigFatGator]

I have piloted both LRM-heavy loadouts and against them. I don't see what the OP sees with respect to a balance problem. They can be effective, but have significant drawbacks... and most builds use a heavy mech as platform with minimal secondary armament, which makes them meat for lights or mediums that can close. Think the speed of missiles could be a bit quicker, but other than that I think that they're about right at the moment.

Think some of the rain is due to the stalker trial mech. Most folks taking this mech have no idea how to properly use LRMs and just launch at anything targeted (in range or not) without consideration if that lock will still be there when missles are close, or if a 150kph light at 800m is a worthy target for their payload. I enjoy using cover to flank them and light them up with my JM6-S inside 200m.

[hellcatq]

I hate Lrms too, but mostly they aren't that big of deal. The thing I hate most about them is that they often hit me even if I'm hiding behind something and have no line of sight on the enemy who fired them. Yeah, I mostly play assaults lights.

As to the coward thing...Lights should always be the first attack wave. That way the enemy shoots at them and misses which increases their heat . Next they mediums/heavies come in and start the all out attack. The assaults roll in right after the heavies/mediums or slightly intermingled. That will provide a distraction and soak up some dmg while the medium/heavies should be wining the dps/heat battle. Occasionally a lone assault sacrifice is required but more than not they should be the mop up crew.

If assaults lead the way they are easily focus fired killed and have little to no dodge and will largely be wasted.

[Koniving]

Got some vids for the original poster.

The first one (already uploaded) is this. Brawling in the LRM rain.


The second, the reason why assaults don't rush directly into LRMs -- to be uploaded later today.

Edited by Koniving, 23 February 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Noesis, on 23 February 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Although relevant to understanding how to be a good MWO pilot, it isn't relevant to "game play balance".

As both sides or differing roles can both exercise good tactics and skill on an equal footing effectively negating this as a recognised balance. Though differences in skill and use of good tactics should separate pilots and teamwork and effective use rewarded accordingly.

In other words people taking about game play balance on a more objective sense aren't concerned with the skill/applied tactics separation and this should remain. Otherwise we would then be starting to apply dynamic adjustments to the game mechanics to vary based on skill level or ability, which of course would not be desirable.

Thus all you are left with is the differences in tech or applied mechanics that relate to the underlying form in the meta as to where disparities exist.

12 Highlanders vs 12 Hunchbacks, which would win most consistently if they both exercised best use of tactics and skill for those Mechs in the current game?

I'm hoping the above question is rhetorical, and that most of the time if not all the HGNs would simply over power and not allow the HBK's to use their mobility to any effect. Yet the sheer damage potential and armour for the HGN's proving to be the winning factor.

Hence the reason for the need for tonnage restrictions. Though interestingly of course the HGN still a clear choice in the Meta even with this being applied.

The above example is not a common arrangement however in terms of Matches, but it is a plausible way of demonstrating that despite best tactics and skill, sometimes it is just the game design with the applied mechanics that causes issues in game balance.

The thing I see witht the High lighted is that a Hunchback is not supposed to have that big of a Speed advantage over Highlanders, So 12 Highlanders v 12 Hunchbacks should end with the Highlanders leaving the field victorious more often. You are talking a 45% ton weight advantage per Highlander. A fight between these two forces should not be balanced. And unless the Hunchback force has a obvious skill advantage, or a subterrainian battle field, There is just to much armor and weapon mass to overcome. The only thing I would expect as a Hunch pilot in that scenario is to be able to give a good showing in defeat.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Nevermind, the OP seems to have changed his tune somewhat so I will refrain from mocking him.

Edited by Nick Makiaveli, 23 February 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[Daggett]

Noesis, on 23 February 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

12 Highlanders vs 12 Hunchbacks, which would win most consistently if they both exercised best use of tactics and skill for those Mechs in the current game?

When we assume that those HGNs are meta poptart-builds with two PPCs then i would rather jump into one of the HBKs, get into brawling range while staying in cover (which is possible on every map) and then neutering their PPCs by staying below their min-range, leaving them with way less firepower than me.

To be more serious:
While i agree to your statements and to tonnage (or even better: BV) restrictions in MM i think tonnage alone is not that much of a defining factor as it seems. For example I do almost equally well in any weight class.
Assaults have more firepower and more armor but are big, slow targets which are easy to hit (which negates a lot of their armor). And being slow they have a hard time to react to changes in the tactical situation.

For example if i see a mate in a duel against an enemy mech, i can't help him in time with my assault. And if i try then afterwards i'll have to go all the way back to the actual front. But in a medium or light mech i can easily help out and be able to support elsewhere afterwards. This is a huge ability for those mechs.

I have more fear from a light wolfpack than from an assault lance just because i can evade the assaults much more easily, but are always forced to face the lights.