198 replies to this topic

[Terrain]

I think that this might help everyone. I remember in the pods if you got hit with a medium laser you got nudged, but if you got with with a gauss rifle, you got ROCKED and your targeting was way off.
So I don't mind the 20/20 damage thing and all 20 going to one spot, but getting hit with lasers vs an ac 20 should have a very different affect on the mech itself.

Lasers Burn
AC 20 rocks you.

So I think that if you got hit with 4 medium lasers it would slightly move you, but if you got hit with an ac 20, you should get rocked.

[DEVASTATOR]

In a one on one I'd take the AC 20. In a slug fest with mechs all around me I'd go for the 4 lasers.

[Slyck]

My problem with the opening concept is the idea that these weapons do their TT damage (and generate heat) per hit. But as many people have pointed out, the TT rules are a generalization where turns take 10 seconds. I think we expect we will be able to fire far more often then that and so in order to keep much of the balance of the TT game adjustments will have to be made to to damage and heat generation.

Taking the opening example, if we give the medium laser a cycle time of 3 seconds now each one does 1.5 damage and .9 heat per shot. If the AC/20 cycles at 6 seconds it does 12 damage and 4.2 heat per shot. Now during an alpha strike the 4 med lasers do 6 damage and the AC/20 does 12.

[Yeach]

Terrain, on 18 January 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I think that this might help everyone. I remember in the pods if you got hit with a medium laser you got nudged, but if you got with with a gauss rifle, you got ROCKED and your targeting was way off.
So I don't mind the 20/20 damage thing and all 20 going to one spot, but getting hit with lasers vs an ac 20 should have a very different affect on the mech itself.

Lasers Burn
AC 20 rocks you.

So I think that if you got hit with 4 medium lasers it would slightly move you, but if you got hit with an ac 20, you should get rocked.

The rock at least from TT interpretation is based on the armor lost and not the weapon itself.
Losing 20 pts of armor from an AC20 or 4 MLasers should give the same effect.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Play Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries and you'll see that all the lasers have their damages cut in half relative to what they are supposed to be. They did this "in an effort to balance the game," because lasers had a distinct tactical advantage over the super-slow firing autocannons (as if they weren't even autocannons, more like bolt-action rifles). Now, the previous game videos released while MW was planned as a Xbox 360 game shows an Atlas firing an autocannon... rapidly... as if it were some magicly self-reloading automatic cannon! That's how it should be.

I'm saying that a full volly from a Jenner's 4 medium lasers SHOULD do the same damage as a direct hit from a volly fired by the Hunchie's Shoulder Blaster. BUT, the Devs should take some artistic license and up the AC's rate of fire to much higher than that of a Medium Laser.

I know that BT damages are to be interperated as "damage over time" because it's a board game and hand-eye coordination is not at all involved; I think, for a 1st person Sim where fast reflexes and hand-eye coordination is crucial, damage values should be implimented as "damage per volly." That way you can tweak rates of fire to even things out without having to throw the weapon strengths too far off from the Official Values.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yeach, on 18 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

The rock at least from TT interpretation is based on the armor lost and not the weapon itself.
Losing 20 pts of armor from an AC20 or 4 MLasers should give the same effect.

I do feel that ballistics should cause more rocking because a laser hit only affects the momentum of dissipated armor as it burns away and discards microscopic and larger particles at high velocity. Ballistics would impart just as much rocking from the armor bits as the laser, PLUS the rocking caused by the projectile's momentum that it carries with it.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 January 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[Yeach]

Prosperity Park, on 18 January 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Play Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries and you'll see that all the lasers have their damages cut in half relative to what they are supposed to be. They did this "in an effort to balance the game," because lasers had a distinct tactical advantage over the super-slow firing autocannons (as if they weren't even autocannons, more like bolt-action rifles).

I think damage wise with damage over time you are correct that medium lasers only do half the damage to what they are suppose to be.
Large Laser remain true or close to TT values (over time).

[Black Sunder]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but in a desert environment where heat is an even more important issue, I would not use those medium lasers. I'd go for my ballistic weapons. So there is that very important use.

As far as the AC20 v 4 MLs is concerned, The AC shot has alot of kinetic energy behind it. It can seriously tear the inside of a mech up with that blunt force trauma and not even have to go through armor to do it. A laser on the other hand won't have as much impact unless it hits ammo or some critical area. Sure it melts armor off etc but it doesn't have that brute force the AC does.

As far as damage is concerned. Lasers pay their price by being heat hogs all the way and even moerso with their ER and pulse variants. AC and other ballistic weapons take ammo but in return they produce little heat but do as good damage. That space and tonnage that would ahve been taken up by heat sinks is then used for other weapons, ammo, and armor.

[Graphite]

UncleKulikov, on 17 November 2011 - 10:13 PM, said:

Therefore, 4 medium lasers is more advantageous even with using the additional Tons left over to purchase additional heat sinks.

Except for the fact that the AC20 puts 20 points of damage on a single location (the whole point of the thread). We all know that medium lasers are the most space or weight efficient weapon there is, but the AC20 still has *something* going for it over 4 ML.

Yeach, on 17 November 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

I always imagine that the arm toting the 4 medium lasers (spaced say at 2 m apart at muzzle end) would converge onto one spot at 270m.

Unless they intentionally don't sync them to a point at 270m - for the sake of a larger spread. Real world weapons sometimes intentionally avoid highest possible accuracy to increase spread: machine guns, shotguns, fighter cannons.
And it works: 4 x ML have a lower chance of causing 0 damage than an AC20 at the same range (also less change of causing 20 damage total).

Mercurial, on 17 November 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Only other way I can think of is to just straight up increase the AC's damage (or if you want to avoid that, add a more severe knockdown/aim jink effect on tragets. Give ACs a role in disrupting other mechs, maybe?), but that risks turning the AC20 into something that near one-shots light and medium mechs.

The AC20 already has this in BT: although average damage is the same as 4xML, the damage bell curve is flatter than that for the 4xML, which means the AC20 has a higher chance of causing 20 damage (also a higher chance of causing 0 damage) , and 20 damage causes a piloting skill roll to avoid falling. 4xML has only a small chance of causing this roll.

The best way to reduce the natural (i.e. canon) advantage in efficiency of lasers over ballistic weapons would be to base the game on a hot planet that raises the basline for heat, so that hot weapons are (relatively) disadvantaged. Personally I don't want them to try to even things up though - just leave it as is (but please make sure a hit from an AC20 causes a stumble that disadvantages the target!)

Edited by Graphite, 18 January 2012 - 10:29 PM.

[Canned_Dman]

Who said they had to compare up anyway?
I always found I didnt like low tech autocannons unless they were going in an ICE engine tank.

Also, take a Jagermech for instance. Could you think of a better use of tonnage than 2 ac2's and 2 ac5's?

[AH Warhawk]

It is true that the medium lasers appear to have the advantage, unless one was to add modifiers to the medium lasers. for example one could make the heat effect your shooting after a couple of shots. literally effecting the pilot and/or the electronics more than a autocannon. the auto cannon could bypass more armor types and "rock" the other mech. making the mech that was attacked difficult to return fire. lasers just melt armor.

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Gotta wait and see more about specific game systems to determine which is the better choice. On a heat-friendly rock (snow, coastal, swamp), the 4 ML boat could be a better choice simply because the map's environmental heat dissipation + the extra heat sinks you put on from the extra space left over will allow you to basically Alpha or at least spam your pew-pews all day. Even though the damage may be spread out, the more frequent and sustained fire of the ML's + no ammo restrictions will be the better choice. However, if the AC/20 adds "impact" type damage, like sway, torso push or even a chance at pre-internal ammo cooks, the big boy may be the better choice.

Also keep in mind that topography, terrain, range, tactics, opposing mech force, etc....all will have an impact on the choice.

[Zervziel]

If the TT game were to freaking explode, some how taking all these little rules with it, I will not mourn it. In fact I would dance on it's grave if it would stop people from trying to translate every single part of a table top game into a video game.

I don't care if 4 medium lasers had the same damage as an AC20 in the table top game. I would very much like it if the devs were to ignore some of the table top game in order to make a game that balances ballistics and laser in a fashion that isn't grossly imbalanced. 4 laser to 1 AC20 which in game terms weighs how much and it's ammo takes up how much more? Congradulations, you just made the AC20 completely useless! They idea of balancing them out by making them splay out everywhere doesn't help. I don't want my lasers acting like I stuck a disco ball in front of them out like everyone and their cat seems to want. Less damage and much master recycling has worked in the past. No need to make a Nova into a demi-god on the battlefield when the Clans come out.

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Zervziel, on 18 January 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

If the TT game were to freaking explode, some how taking all these little rules with it, I will not mourn it. In fact I would dance on it's grave if it would stop people from trying to translate every single part of a table top game into a video game.

I don't care if 4 medium lasers had the same damage as an AC20 in the table top game. I would very much like it if the devs were to ignore some of the table top game in order to make a game that balances ballistics and laser in a fashion that isn't grossly imbalanced. 4 laser to 1 AC20 which in game terms weighs how much and it's ammo takes up how much more? Congradulations, you just made the AC20 completely useless! They idea of balancing them out by making them splay out everywhere doesn't help. I don't want my lasers acting like I stuck a disco ball in front of them out like everyone and their cat seems to want. Less damage and much master recycling has worked in the past. No need to make a Nova into a demi-god on the battlefield when the Clans come out.

You are completely ignoring the downsides of the 4 ML boat. Massively more heat generated, spread out damage, not much damage per hit, etc... Don't waste your time crying about the perceived imbalance. Spend your time thinking critically about the situation and coming up with winning strategies.

[Zervziel]

Traejun DiSanctis, on 19 January 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

You are completely ignoring the downsides of the 4 ML boat. Massively more heat generated, spread out damage, not much damage per hit, etc... Don't waste your time crying about the perceived imbalance. Spend your time thinking critically about the situation and coming up with winning strategies.

Except in the 10+ tons you save you can add several heatsinks?

And you are completely ignoring my point. I don't want the TT game to dictate every single aspect of a video game. Dice don't determine where the shots land, I do.

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Zervziel, on 19 January 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Except in the 10+ tons you save you can add several heatsinks?

And you are completely ignoring my point. I don't want the TT game to dictate every single aspect of a video game. Dice don't determine where the shots land, I do.

Fair enough. I'm not ignoring your points, I'm arguing against them (see my post a few up from yours). I don't believe the TT game will dictate anything or force the dev's hand (too much). I also don't think we can just ignore those rules at the risk of becoming basically a new game with an old name. Gotta stay true to the game...and the name.

Let's wait and see before we jump to conclusions. We know virtually nothing about the game's systems.

And, for the record, I'll take the AC/20 over the 4 ML boat in any terrain with obstructions. My peak-a-boo AC/20 shot that wrecks your right arm and twists your torso is going to hurt a lot more than your pew pews peppering some damage across my mech's armor. In flat terrain that isn't a desert, I'll probably take the lasers.

[Cataphract]

I didnt read all the post for obvious reasons so if this was pointed out ignore it. There are more factors than just shear damage in past MW games that made an AC20 better then medium lasers. Perfect examples being recoil and damage per heat point generated. In MW3 and 4 you could knock down another mech with a well placed AC/LBX 20 shot which is something 4 medium laser can never do. Also if heat is generated more to TT and canon then an AC20 is a far more efficient damage generator purely becuase of heat. Most MW games out so far have a % of heat generation negated before it was even dissipated which by all means cant happen in real life. All the heat of a weapon would flood the mechs internals before the heatsinks could even start removing it. The 12 heat generated by those 4 medium lasers also means youre almost 25% up your max heat threshold where an AC20 is barely about 11-12%. It makes more sense when comparing weapons to think beyond just damage per shot/second. Food for thought I say.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Caballo, on 15 November 2011 - 11:40 PM, said:

I mean assuming a battlemmech's ability to aim is the same as the red baron's plane is plain sick. we're on the XXI century and the weapon systems are a world away from that.

Check me on this but I thought that technology has been lost in the Succession Wars and thus some of these futuristic weapons systems are using archaic technology to aim. I mean LRM/SRMs are all unguided missiles right? And we've had guided missiles since the 20th century right?

Yeach, on 15 November 2011 - 11:52 PM, said:

Okay pause on that thought.
The Red Baron DR-1 had two machine guns side-by-side. Now stack another two machine guns on top.
Now tell me amount of spread when you fire those machine guns.

See the graphic on Page 1 by Kurios. Being even an inch off can mean a big difference. And we aren't talking about mounting them inches apart, we are talking about mounting them on a mech's arm. And who says after dismounting from the dropship, trampling to the battlefield, getting shot a few times hasn't knocked them a bit out of line?

The line has to be drawn somewhere or else the game is too complicated to be fun. I once saw a fantasy RPG that on page 522 (give or take a hundred pages) had rules to calculate how long it would take to dig a ditch given a characters stats (not just STR, but stamina etc, the tools used, their condition what you don't think shovels wear out?)

[TRK]

I have read all the posts and there is only one thing bothering me.

It is than not then.

I fired my autocannon and then my lasers.

I missed with 2 of the lasers so the autocannon did more damage than the lasers.

Sorry, but it was really bugging me.

I think one of the problems we are having with TT vs live action is time. After playing a TT game, see how many rounds it took to finish. Then add up what that time frame would be in game. Quite frequently it seems like a very long battle in TT, while in game time, it is very short, maybe minutes. We all want to last more than 30 seconds in a fire fight, otherwise it is just not fun.

I think the devs will do just fine with this sort of balancing "problem". Autocannons should fire faster than lasers in my opinion, that may be a factor for "balancing".

[DarkTreader]

Going back through and reading the original novels (Die, DA), I've run across a number of references to pilots firing lasers and other weapons that, based on the variant they were using, were all located in the same area (LArm, RArm, Torso, etc...).

Now, some are fixed (Yen-Lo-Wang's AC/20), and some are on what appears to be ball-mounted (The 3 MLas on Allard's Wolfhound, and possibly the rear-mounted MLas, as well, and the MGs on Hanse Davion's Battlemaster). This tells me that certain weapons, particularly ones that are rather large (AC/20, PPC, etc...) or ones mounted as a main weapon on, say, an arm, would be fixed - making sense as you want the shot to go where you point-and-click. Others, such as the ball-mounted weapons, appear to have a more free-floating nature, letting them pivot and shoot within a certain firing arc (e.g. during Mech startup, checking the arc range of your weapons and having the crosshair disappear or fade out).

For fixed weapons, it would seem most likely that they'd just be a straight line of fire, directed at whatever the crosshair is on. For the ball-mounted weapons, unless one was fouled up, they should track along the same path as the crosshair is pointing at, and adjust angles to match with the other weapons on the same crosshair.

~shrugs~ Just my take on things.

EDIT: To bring this back into context... Yes, weapons should be able to have converged fire - though having a bit of a delay on locking would presumably make sense... which means that yes, a grouped set of 4 MLas should dish out the same damage as an AC/20.

And someone check me on this, but I recall some rather serious differences between laser and ballistic damage as far as TT rules go... Lasers have a tiny chance of scoring a crit even through armor? Or was that ballistics? It's been a while. =p

Edited by DarkTreader, 19 January 2012 - 10:09 AM.