135 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Bear Shaman, on 20 November 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Thanks for clarifying, though I do see a problem with the ability to avoid a shutdown (at least at earlier heat levels) based on a die roll. There's a strong, vocal contingent of people on these forums who object to any sort of random number generation in Mechwarrior.

My 2c: anything that a 'Mech Pilot does that we can be reasonably expected and able to do with a PC and a keyboard/mouse or KB/joystick, should be given to us to do, No RNG at all.

Things we can't control? ... they might or might not make sense as an RNG or some other kind of mechanic; as long as it fits the VG implementation and makes sense in the light of the lore.

Quote

Maybe the likelihood of shutdown at any given heat level could be determined by the number of heat sinks installed on the mech? That might translate to the computer determining whether it can cool the mech off in time to prevent an ammo explosion while the engine's still running.

As far as when the computer wants to shut things down - that's pretty much pre-programmed. The avoid rolls on shut downs represent hitting the shut-down override quickly enough; that should be up to us with our keyboards.

The other avoid rolls? Those represent chance, and the die-numbers can be translated in to percentage chances and plotted if need be. The back-end mechanic doesn't have to be an RNG when you have the percentages plotted out.

The other penalties, like on movement and the ability to target those with no saves/avoid? ... Those should be there, no way around them.

Edited by Pht, 20 November 2011 - 05:49 PM.

[Bear Shaman]

I can agree to that, but be prepared for the sudden influx of flame to your inbox. This is a seriously contentious issue.

Edited by Bear Shaman, 20 November 2011 - 06:15 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

With an estimated round length of ~20 minutes and assuming between lance to lance and company to company battles, 20 seconds may not be an eternity at all. It depends on how the game manages armor and damage output.

[Reno Blade]

Pht, on 20 November 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

That nerfs the daylights out of designs like the flashman and such - it would render the biggest advantage of energy based weapons into a nearly moot point.

Hmmmm. did you read it correctly?
i wrote "when shut down" they should dissipate the same heat per time. the flashman and other heavy energy mechs have enough heatsinks to dissipate the heat faster while active.

i like to add that movement and environment should give a base level of heat, so you are never at zero, if your not standing still in a colder clima.

[Psydotek]

Long enough to dissipate ALL EXCESS heat points generated down to a reasonable level that would allow your 'mech to start back up.

[Bloody]

i say at least 1 min and preferably between 3-5 mins. If your mech shuts down you should be good as toast on rye.

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Bloody, on 22 November 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

i say at least 1 min and preferably between 3-5 mins. If your mech shuts down you should be good as toast on rye.

Jesus. That's a bit excessive.

[Bloody]

Traejun DiSanctis, on 22 November 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

Jesus. That's a bit excessive.

don't over heat then. It is risk vs reward, you overheat you risk completely losing out. You don't you risk getting out shot. If you are one of those risk adverse types then stick to ballistic weaponry .

[CaveMan]

Bloody, on 22 November 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

i say at least 1 min and preferably between 3-5 mins. If your mech shuts down you should be good as toast on rye.

Load up on inferno missiles and grief people until they ragequit? Try NOT overheating with succession wars tech. Shutdowns are part of the game.

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Bloody, on 22 November 2011 - 10:22 PM, said:

don't over heat then. It is risk vs reward, you overheat you risk completely losing out. You don't you risk getting out shot. If you are one of those risk adverse types then stick to ballistic weaponry .

I understand the risk-reward aspect of it. Overheating is the "all in" - if you "hit, you win the pot.

I'm averse to your proposal because it makes no logical sense. 1 minute is fine in the case of a catastrophic overheat - i.e. many BTU's over the capacity. IMO, ammo should cook in that case. But 3-5 minutes is just nonsense.

[Bloody]

Traejun DiSanctis, on 22 November 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

I understand the risk-reward aspect of it. Overheating is the "all in" - if you "hit, you win the pot.

I'm averse to your proposal because it makes no logical sense. 1 minute is fine in the case of a catastrophic overheat - i.e. many BTU's over the capacity. IMO, ammo should cook in that case. But 3-5 minutes is just nonsense.

why was it nonsense? original rules of the game was that 1 round was approximately 1 minute. You only got 1 roll to restart / per round. Which counted down ie 12+ to 9+ to 6+ by round 3 irrc.

[CaveMan]

Bloody, on 22 November 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

why was it nonsense? original rules of the game was that 1 round was approximately 1 minute. You only got 1 roll to restart / per round. Which counted down ie 12+ to 9+ to 6+ by round 3 irrc.

Nope. 10 seconds, not one minute.

Edited by CaveMan, 22 November 2011 - 10:34 PM.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Outside of how fast a mech does or doesn't cooldown I think that from initial boot-up to restoration of all systems and full control should be 20-30s.

It absolutely should be lengthy. Shutdown in previous MW games was nothing but a minor inconvenience and it barely punished alpha-strikers or influenced pilot behavior.

Pilots should really regret riding their mech so hard that it shutdown and it should be as close to a death sentence as possible.

Besides, with all of the modern technology loaded onto the average HMMWV it takes well over 30s to even get something like that battle ready. I don't think 20-30s is asking too much.

[Psydotek]

Bloody, on 22 November 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

why was it nonsense? original rules of the game was that 1 round was approximately 1 minute. You only got 1 roll to restart / per round. Which counted down ie 12+ to 9+ to 6+ by round 3 irrc.

I thought 1 turn was 10 seconds?

[Traejun DiSanctis]

Bloody, on 22 November 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

why was it nonsense? original rules of the game was that 1 round was approximately 1 minute. You only got 1 roll to restart / per round. Which counted down ie 12+ to 9+ to 6+ by round 3 irrc.

nope....10 seconds.

Edited by Traejun DiSanctis, 22 November 2011 - 10:35 PM.

[Psydotek]

10 seconds of being a sitting duck can seem like an eternity when an entire lance of 'mechs is focus firing on you...

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The whole point is that shutdown should be a penalty. Heat management always seemed to be the major preoccupation of mechwarriors in the literature. It's the reason most mechs carry a mix of weapons, to help manage heat. Given the ammo loadouts of most standard mechs, the indicated turn length of 20 min is going to seem a long time. Most mechs will get through their ammo in a couple of minutes. so energy heavy designs that manage their heat levels well at the beginning of the combat will rule the map - Warhammer anyone?

[VYCanis]

Are you guys nuts? Getting out of a shutdown should only take as long as it takes to bleed the extra heat.

Which in most cases should be well UNDER 10 seconds. Anything that involves standing still for longer is pretty much a death sentence.

If you want to prevent players that pack in enough energy weapons to alpha an assault in one salvo, then just power down, have massive heatspikes of that kind cripple or kill their mechs. players that simply ride the redline a little bit should only be shutdown momentarily. A few seconds of standing still is often lethal enough.

[Moppelkotze]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 22 November 2011 - 11:19 PM, said:

Most mechs will get through their ammo in a couple of minutes.

We don't know if there will be Mechbays or something like this where you might rearm or even repair the Mech (armor only).

[MaddMaxx]

As to the point of previous games having shut-down be nothing more than a nuisance was for good reason. Playas want to Play! Period, end of story.

Surely after In house, Alpha then Beta testing it was decided that if you force LONG shut-downs on Playas, they will go PLAYA some where else.

So the Dev will have to decide that given Heat will be a factor it does not necessarily relate to being a forced shut-down sequence like before. Hell it could simply be a degradation of on-board systems such that each NEXT level of Heat generated begins to do bad things, as noted elsewhere here.

If anyone actually thinks that a 45-60 shutdown penalty is a good idea, they will be playing the same 12 folks on the server a week after Launch. There is no way in Frak the Dev could in good conscience do that and expect the game to fly in a F2P environment.

15 seconds with a few button pushes to speed up the recovery would actually be FUN.

Sitting on a Battlefield helpless, while the enemy ignore the other Mechs, as killing your shutdown Mech reduces enemy strength with ease, is not FUN!

It is simple game-play logic folks. make it FUN or simply forget it. If you want to Roll the Dice. Gather about the kitchen table and have at it.