20-30 seconds IS an eternity, that's kind of the point. Basically, shutting down should kill you unless your lance-mates step in to protect you or you've saved overheating that much for a last-ditch effort to kill the only enemy near you and it's worked.
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How long should restart from overheat shutdown be?
Started by kazrok, Nov 15 2011 09:50 PM
135 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:56 AM
This is going to sound crazy, and people are going to start hitting me with sticks, but what about a simple QTE or minigame?
A 'mech that has shut down from overheating has clearly gone beyond the factory standards, and, while the computer and emergency power might be able to cycle the coolant enough to get the reactor going again, an attentive and technically competent mechwarrior might be able to speed up the process.
For instance, if you overheat, you could shift the view to an MFD that displays heat levels. By manually shunting heat from parts of the coolant system that are overheated through bypass valves into reserve coolant tanks, you might cut off a few seconds of your overheat.
This would have to be something that could be executed in just a few seconds, so it couldn't be too complex, but it can't be an automatic benefit, either.
I would say, assuming damage output is at 1 Tabletop Turn / 10 seconds, make the base shutdown time 20 seconds if you just sit back in your couch and swear at the monitor, and have the minigame cut up to 5 seconds off the time.
A 'mech that has shut down from overheating has clearly gone beyond the factory standards, and, while the computer and emergency power might be able to cycle the coolant enough to get the reactor going again, an attentive and technically competent mechwarrior might be able to speed up the process.
For instance, if you overheat, you could shift the view to an MFD that displays heat levels. By manually shunting heat from parts of the coolant system that are overheated through bypass valves into reserve coolant tanks, you might cut off a few seconds of your overheat.
This would have to be something that could be executed in just a few seconds, so it couldn't be too complex, but it can't be an automatic benefit, either.
I would say, assuming damage output is at 1 Tabletop Turn / 10 seconds, make the base shutdown time 20 seconds if you just sit back in your couch and swear at the monitor, and have the minigame cut up to 5 seconds off the time.
#63
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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:24 AM
GreyGriffin, on 18 November 2011 - 02:56 AM, said:
A 'mech that has shut down from overheating has clearly gone beyond the factory standards, and, while the computer and emergency power might be able to cycle the coolant enough to get the reactor going again, an attentive and technically competent mechwarrior might be able to speed up the process.
For instance, if you overheat, you could shift the view to an MFD that displays heat levels. By manually shunting heat from parts of the coolant system that are overheated through bypass valves into reserve coolant tanks, you might cut off a few seconds of your overheat.
For instance, if you overheat, you could shift the view to an MFD that displays heat levels. By manually shunting heat from parts of the coolant system that are overheated through bypass valves into reserve coolant tanks, you might cut off a few seconds of your overheat.
This is actually a great idea.
In previous games when you shutdown you just sat there and did nothing until the mech started up again. It's essentially a "time-out" from the perspective of the player, or a really boring "stick" using the devs vocab. Some minigame along those lines would not only keep you engaged but also give you an edge if you were good at it.
On top of that it adds to the overall experience by driving home the point that you're piloting a giant machine which has systems upon systems upon sub systems to look after. Letting people tinker with them to gain an advantage during otherwise dead time is perfect.
You'd just have to be careful not to make the minigame feel like a chore, or be simple enough that a macro could take care of it, because then it'd hurt immersion and be worse than doing nothing.
#64
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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:26 AM
Don't like the term Mini-game (just me) but an in cockpit sequence of keyboard strokes, prompted for by the on-board comp system, after hitting the Over-Ride (only available after the SD sequence has happened) sounds doable.
To prevent Macro use, the keystroke sequence(s) presented could be randomly generated, never exceeding say 5 keystrokes and when done efficiently, at the end of the sequence (5 seconds later) the Mech is back up and running,but doing so very hot that pulling any trigger (other than a MG) puts the machine back where it was mere seconds ago thus resetting the scenario again.
So given that, the SD sequence happens in 5 sec. and would last another 15-20 normally, while the OR action reduces it to a 10 sec. total but you still need to cool before re-engaging in actual battle.
To prevent Macro use, the keystroke sequence(s) presented could be randomly generated, never exceeding say 5 keystrokes and when done efficiently, at the end of the sequence (5 seconds later) the Mech is back up and running,but doing so very hot that pulling any trigger (other than a MG) puts the machine back where it was mere seconds ago thus resetting the scenario again.
So given that, the SD sequence happens in 5 sec. and would last another 15-20 normally, while the OR action reduces it to a 10 sec. total but you still need to cool before re-engaging in actual battle.
#65
Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:28 AM
Quote
That's a brilliant idea! I've been thinking for a while now about how, in the Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance intro, it shows the pilots starting up the mechs. They're flipping switches like crazy, like a real fighter pilot or helicopter pilot. I've always wanted there to be something more than simply hitting the "power up mech" key. It could, in addition to increasing immersion, provide the gameplay boost you two gentlemen describe concerning the overheat shutdown.
Sequence as shown is still too short, though.
Emergency 'Mech powerup takes a minute to complete.
#66
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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:34 PM
MaddMaxx, on 18 November 2011 - 08:26 AM, said:
Don't like the term Mini-game (just me) but an in cockpit sequence of keyboard strokes, prompted for by the on-board comp system, after hitting the Over-Ride (only available after the SD sequence has happened) sounds doable.
Well, it may be better if overriding itself was just a key press. If you had to go through all the trouble just to override nobody would really want to do it, as it takes enough skill to ride on the edge of shutdown in the first place. On the other hand it would be interesting to have some higher levels of override like you said, which could further extend the time a regular override works for.
J Echo, on 18 November 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:
So, instead of making a crazy-long restart time, simply incorporate a more complex manual startup procedure, and make the inept mechwarrior who constantly overheats and shuts down (like me) go through the startup procedure each time he makes that mistake.
Yea any time where the player has to sit idle can be a good place to introduce elements which let them pretend like they're fooling around with the insides of their mechs. Gets even better when it can be used to work out an advantage.
#67
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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:28 PM
Logically...
It should take the amount of time necessary to dissapate all excess heat (heat over the maximum) plus roughly 25% of the max operating heat. Then 30-60 seconds to restart the engine and initialize systems. Once systems are initialized you can move, but weapons would still require their cooldown to load or power up before they could be fired.
60 seconds is probably going to be too long for game balance purposes. A full miniute during a battle will be an eternity, in most cases you may as well just blow your mech up if you shut down for that long. Heat dissapation plus 10-20 seconds is probably the most appropriate. Even that is probably going to be a long duriation in game terms. You could be talking about close to 30 seconds. Not counting damage you may take from overheating, any equally sized enemy mechs near you are going to chew you up in that time frame.
I would almost suggest that in starter mechs, for people just learning the game, that weapons require a double key press to fire if that action would cause an overheat. Maybe make it an option in prefrences that defaults to on till you turn it off. First key press pops up an overheat warning that is both audible and visual. Second keypress fires that weapon and you take your chances with the downtime.
It should take the amount of time necessary to dissapate all excess heat (heat over the maximum) plus roughly 25% of the max operating heat. Then 30-60 seconds to restart the engine and initialize systems. Once systems are initialized you can move, but weapons would still require their cooldown to load or power up before they could be fired.
60 seconds is probably going to be too long for game balance purposes. A full miniute during a battle will be an eternity, in most cases you may as well just blow your mech up if you shut down for that long. Heat dissapation plus 10-20 seconds is probably the most appropriate. Even that is probably going to be a long duriation in game terms. You could be talking about close to 30 seconds. Not counting damage you may take from overheating, any equally sized enemy mechs near you are going to chew you up in that time frame.
I would almost suggest that in starter mechs, for people just learning the game, that weapons require a double key press to fire if that action would cause an overheat. Maybe make it an option in prefrences that defaults to on till you turn it off. First key press pops up an overheat warning that is both audible and visual. Second keypress fires that weapon and you take your chances with the downtime.
#68
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Posted 19 November 2011 - 03:17 AM
Leonardo Monteiro, on 16 November 2011 - 03:30 AM, said:
Why not have both worlds?
Piranha needs to make a game that pleases us, battletech junkies, and new players that might not appreciate, or at least understand some points such as Heat management.
So make a selection option on heat managemnt:
- Simple: Heat shutdown time is minimum, weapons stop randomly firing if heat builds up,then you shut down - but you pay this by having a sort of heat penalty (you heat faster). This is simple enough for newbies to get the concept, without them becoming ridiculous targets
- Advanced: Big shutdown time. However, because you should manage your heat (paying attention, proper weapon cycling, etc.), you get no penalties.
Piranha needs to make a game that pleases us, battletech junkies, and new players that might not appreciate, or at least understand some points such as Heat management.
So make a selection option on heat managemnt:
- Simple: Heat shutdown time is minimum, weapons stop randomly firing if heat builds up,then you shut down - but you pay this by having a sort of heat penalty (you heat faster). This is simple enough for newbies to get the concept, without them becoming ridiculous targets
- Advanced: Big shutdown time. However, because you should manage your heat (paying attention, proper weapon cycling, etc.), you get no penalties.
I like this. A lot of people have a strong aversion towards any form of crowd control that takes away the player's control of their toon - and shutdown is the worst type since you're sitting there waiting to get violated with no chance of any type of response. I have no issue with it, but Piranha must be aware of this.
Having casual and hardcore rulesets would also help with other types of issues, and has been successfully implemented in numerous multiplayer games.
The mini-game idea is another brilliant idea. As said, it takes away the boredom of just sitting there, or horror of watching your mech getting blown to bits, giving you something useful to do. Nothing too involved, but maybe for the duration of the cooldown to press the right button every few seconds according to on-screen visuals to shorten the CD by x% for every successful keypress.
Edited by CaptainSodom, 19 November 2011 - 03:21 AM.
#69
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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:27 AM
The best way to avoid shutdown penalties is to avoid a shutdown unless it's going to be relatively safe to do so, ie in a 1v1 where you can get a kill or you have enough lancemates to get your back while you are shut down. It means fitting enough low heat weapons that you can get out of a furball until you can cool down. Alternatively you lose your mech and know better next time. Most of us have been there and done that enough to not be anxious to look that silly and let our lancemates down.
#71
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:00 AM
For the sake of playability i wouldnt overdo shutdown times. Imho its simple: You have a heatscale. Your on normal levels , everything is fine.
Then your heat builds up form weaponsfire, movement etc. now you get into levels were your suffering some difficulties. Youre a little slower (unless you use tripple strenght myomer wich adds the speed youd normaly loose)controlles get a little less direct, sensors flicker etc.
Because you still didnt stop firing your heat builds up even more. Now your in trouble, your sensors flicker on and off, your vision suffers (like g-effects in flightsims, Vision becomes greyish, heavy breathing, tunnelvision shortly before blackout) because of the heat, controlls get even more sluggish and there is a delay between pressing a button and the associated action.
Every bit of heat beyond that level causes the mech to shutdown within 4 or 5 seconds. And during this time you have a chance to cook off your ammo. I would put it at 10 percent for shutdown temperature and 30 percent if you go way beyond e.g because of doing an alphastrike while your already hot.
Now suspecting you didnt cook off your ammo and you didnt have a black out, your mech is shutdown. How long it takes till it cooled down to restart depends on the heatsinks. Once your within normal level again the warning lights go dark and you can restart .
Restarting could be done by pushing a single button or by entering a 4 digit code unique to your mechs.
Maybe you can put in an auto function to shutdown your mech before it heats up beyond safe levels. This could be an auto shutdown before a temperature that might set off your ammo and/or reactor. But this has to be activated before mission or at least before your heat goes beyond normal levels.
Add a second function wich is basicly a babysitter version that lets you do whatever you want till you reach high temperatures but then does not allow you to fire your weapons , or at least those wich generate more heat than your mech is capable of dissapating, till youre back to normal levels of temperature. Maybe with an indicator on the weaponspanel-showing you wich weapon is safe to fire.
And on the heatscale itself. Once you fire your weapons the heatbuildup should last 2 or 3 seconds before the heatsinks realy kick in. That way heat becomes something to deal with while still allowing a fast dissapation after those 2 or 3 seconds.
Double heatsinks should only work like 1,5 heatsinks and should need a second longer to kick in. Or something along those lines.
Heater weapons like infernos and flamers should only spike heat up tremendously but dissapate pretty quick to not make them too effective.
Starting or restarting manualy after heat is back to normal should be as stated above like entering a 4 letter code on your numpad. Automatic start restart does the same but should be slow. like 5 or 7 seconds. Manual has to be done by the pilot but can be as fast as he or she can type in the code and press enter.
I think that way it is complex enough for mw veterans and easy enough for beginners and those completly unfamiliar with battletech/mechwarrior. There are automatic functions that make life easier at the price of getting less out of the mashine.
Much like manual gearbox or an automatic. the manual gerbox allows you to get some higher revs and you can decide when to shift. while the automatic always plays it safe. Something alog those lines.
Then your heat builds up form weaponsfire, movement etc. now you get into levels were your suffering some difficulties. Youre a little slower (unless you use tripple strenght myomer wich adds the speed youd normaly loose)controlles get a little less direct, sensors flicker etc.
Because you still didnt stop firing your heat builds up even more. Now your in trouble, your sensors flicker on and off, your vision suffers (like g-effects in flightsims, Vision becomes greyish, heavy breathing, tunnelvision shortly before blackout) because of the heat, controlls get even more sluggish and there is a delay between pressing a button and the associated action.
Every bit of heat beyond that level causes the mech to shutdown within 4 or 5 seconds. And during this time you have a chance to cook off your ammo. I would put it at 10 percent for shutdown temperature and 30 percent if you go way beyond e.g because of doing an alphastrike while your already hot.
Now suspecting you didnt cook off your ammo and you didnt have a black out, your mech is shutdown. How long it takes till it cooled down to restart depends on the heatsinks. Once your within normal level again the warning lights go dark and you can restart .
Restarting could be done by pushing a single button or by entering a 4 digit code unique to your mechs.
Maybe you can put in an auto function to shutdown your mech before it heats up beyond safe levels. This could be an auto shutdown before a temperature that might set off your ammo and/or reactor. But this has to be activated before mission or at least before your heat goes beyond normal levels.
Add a second function wich is basicly a babysitter version that lets you do whatever you want till you reach high temperatures but then does not allow you to fire your weapons , or at least those wich generate more heat than your mech is capable of dissapating, till youre back to normal levels of temperature. Maybe with an indicator on the weaponspanel-showing you wich weapon is safe to fire.
And on the heatscale itself. Once you fire your weapons the heatbuildup should last 2 or 3 seconds before the heatsinks realy kick in. That way heat becomes something to deal with while still allowing a fast dissapation after those 2 or 3 seconds.
Double heatsinks should only work like 1,5 heatsinks and should need a second longer to kick in. Or something along those lines.
Heater weapons like infernos and flamers should only spike heat up tremendously but dissapate pretty quick to not make them too effective.
Starting or restarting manualy after heat is back to normal should be as stated above like entering a 4 letter code on your numpad. Automatic start restart does the same but should be slow. like 5 or 7 seconds. Manual has to be done by the pilot but can be as fast as he or she can type in the code and press enter.
I think that way it is complex enough for mw veterans and easy enough for beginners and those completly unfamiliar with battletech/mechwarrior. There are automatic functions that make life easier at the price of getting less out of the mashine.
Much like manual gearbox or an automatic. the manual gerbox allows you to get some higher revs and you can decide when to shift. while the automatic always plays it safe. Something alog those lines.
Edited by Marxman, 20 November 2011 - 03:06 AM.
#72
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- The Bolt
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:32 AM
The restart should depent on how much overheat you have. Under Solaris VII Rules the Heatsinks are working normal while the Weapons make 4-times Heat, Overheat Limit is 120. 3 ER-PPCs make each 60 Heat, all together 180. The Mech shuts down with 180 Heat, every Solaris Round (2.5 Seconds) the Heat goes down (maybe by 30, to stay at the exampel), so you need 3 Rounds to get below 120 Heat which makes 7.5 Seconds... und your Mech aint cool by that, he stays with 90 Heatpoints...
Its not easy to manage Heat in a Mech when you keep on firing youre Weapons without taking a break and cover... i'm looking forward that those rules are getting programmed of beeing playable and not standing in the way of Logic and fun... its a game... but it is Battletech, not Logictech! ^^
Its not easy to manage Heat in a Mech when you keep on firing youre Weapons without taking a break and cover... i'm looking forward that those rules are getting programmed of beeing playable and not standing in the way of Logic and fun... its a game... but it is Battletech, not Logictech! ^^
#73
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- Little Helper
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:37 AM
Don't wanna shut down, you say? Want to avoid a "time out"? Then be judicious with your heat levels... the point of heat isn't to punish players, and it's only a problem when people don't use good judgement. I also don't like coolant flush. 
#75
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- Philanthropist
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:15 AM
Jack Deth, on 18 November 2011 - 02:46 AM, said:
20-30 seconds IS an eternity, that's kind of the point. Basically, shutting down should kill you unless your lance-mates step in to protect you or you've saved overheating that much for a last-ditch effort to kill the only enemy near you and it's worked.
It is an eternity, but it 1) promotes teamwork (They'll protect you, you protect them), and 2) it could be something to build off off. As GreyGriffen said (I posted the quote below), a more competent mechwarrior might be able to override certain systems. So hypothetically, more experience could allow you to override a lot faster. If nothing more, it gives a logical aspect to the "leveling" that so many people are up in arms about apart from MORE EXP MORE GUNS (which is a bloody terrible way to run a game, if you ask me).
GreyGriffin, on 18 November 2011 - 02:56 AM, said:
This is going to sound crazy, and people are going to start hitting me with sticks, but what about a simple QTE or minigame?
A 'mech that has shut down from overheating has clearly gone beyond the factory standards, and, while the computer and emergency power might be able to cycle the coolant enough to get the reactor going again, an attentive and technically competent mechwarrior might be able to speed up the process.
For instance, if you overheat, you could shift the view to an MFD that displays heat levels. By manually shunting heat from parts of the coolant system that are overheated through bypass valves into reserve coolant tanks, you might cut off a few seconds of your overheat.
This would have to be something that could be executed in just a few seconds, so it couldn't be too complex, but it can't be an automatic benefit, either.
I would say, assuming damage output is at 1 Tabletop Turn / 10 seconds, make the base shutdown time 20 seconds if you just sit back in your couch and swear at the monitor, and have the minigame cut up to 5 seconds off the time.
A 'mech that has shut down from overheating has clearly gone beyond the factory standards, and, while the computer and emergency power might be able to cycle the coolant enough to get the reactor going again, an attentive and technically competent mechwarrior might be able to speed up the process.
For instance, if you overheat, you could shift the view to an MFD that displays heat levels. By manually shunting heat from parts of the coolant system that are overheated through bypass valves into reserve coolant tanks, you might cut off a few seconds of your overheat.
This would have to be something that could be executed in just a few seconds, so it couldn't be too complex, but it can't be an automatic benefit, either.
I would say, assuming damage output is at 1 Tabletop Turn / 10 seconds, make the base shutdown time 20 seconds if you just sit back in your couch and swear at the monitor, and have the minigame cut up to 5 seconds off the time.
#76
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- The Blood-Eye
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:06 AM
The time it takes to recover from a heat-related shutdown should be significant enough to prevent it from being a strategy and prevent boating. Heat boats would be piloted by suicidal freaks riding the redline, cooking themselves in their own couches, baking their systems.
Re: boats. to prevent energy boats, maybe have it so the more energy weapons you have, the longer it should take to charge since they are drawing from the same power source at the same time multiplying the drain just like it multiplies the heat when you fire them in groups or all at once. So even if the boat avoids overheating, it would still take alot longer to recharge. This, combined with heat, would make mixed loadouts and TROs more advantageous.
Re: boats. to prevent energy boats, maybe have it so the more energy weapons you have, the longer it should take to charge since they are drawing from the same power source at the same time multiplying the drain just like it multiplies the heat when you fire them in groups or all at once. So even if the boat avoids overheating, it would still take alot longer to recharge. This, combined with heat, would make mixed loadouts and TROs more advantageous.
#77
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:58 AM
I clearly see the game needs a hardcore mode.
There you can have 15 minutes of manual reactor start up. Have fun tho.
There you can have 15 minutes of manual reactor start up. Have fun tho.
#78
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- Philanthropist
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:09 PM
scary results. Anything over a few seconds and overheat = death.
team mates protecting you? yeah right, maybe, but Ill tell you anything over ten seconds and your anywhere near the front means your dead.
team mates protecting you? yeah right, maybe, but Ill tell you anything over ten seconds and your anywhere near the front means your dead.
#79
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:32 PM
The amount of time you're overheated should depend on how much waste heat you've built up and how quickly your 'Mech's heatsink system can dump that heat out.
Run stupid hot in a 'Mech with a sub-par cooling system, pay the piper.
Seriously, it's the height of stupidity to run your 'Mech over-hot; that's on of the biggest aspects of the BT lore/universe.
If someone is dumb enough to overheat badly enough to shut down before they can hit the over-ride out in the middle of live combat - they deserve the pounding they get.
Run stupid hot in a 'Mech with a sub-par cooling system, pay the piper.
Seriously, it's the height of stupidity to run your 'Mech over-hot; that's on of the biggest aspects of the BT lore/universe.
If someone is dumb enough to overheat badly enough to shut down before they can hit the over-ride out in the middle of live combat - they deserve the pounding they get.
Edited by Pht, 20 November 2011 - 12:34 PM.
#80
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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:32 PM
A specific, universal amount of time to spend in forced shut down wouldn't make sense.
The time you spend in forced shut down should be based on how quickly your mech dissipates waste heat. So a mech equipped with a lot of heat sinks should reactivate sooner from forced shut down than a mech equipped with few.
The time you spend in forced shut down should be based on how quickly your mech dissipates waste heat. So a mech equipped with a lot of heat sinks should reactivate sooner from forced shut down than a mech equipped with few.
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