223 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Edit: (For those who don't know, Russ Bullock has already stated no changes/fixes to SRM hit registration will be made until AFTER CW is released. That means nine to twelve more months of how the game is now).

I'm attempting to spell this out for PGI in plain simple terms so we can end the shenanigans immediately. Russ Bullock thinks it is too complicated a problem and doesn't want to do anything about it until after Community Warfare.

The truth is, though, the community is sick of waiting. We're sick of the current front-loaded, long range pinpoint metagame. There are plenty of us that want brawling back. I'm one of them. I can handle the meta just fine (others will attest to this I'm sure) but it has gotten old.

We want our brawlers back!

So, for Paul and Russ... let me help you.

The SRM problem:

1. SRMs don't register damage often enough.
2. SRMs, when they actually register... do inadequate damage.

Up for debate is whether SRM hit registration has always been an issue. I'll admit before HSR, I did have to lag shoot the SRMs into thin air to cause damage sometimes. For oldschool players, this is simple to do as we already know all about lag shooting. Still, I recall times where they wouldn't count damage even back then (but from my memory it wasn't nearly as often.)

So what do we do?

1. Remove HSR for missiles. Yep. Turn it off. You implemented it in three stages. Turn it off for missiles. Comment out that section of code so missiles go the old-fashioned route. This probably could be done in a ... DAY. Even less if you coded it properly with function calls. If that's the case... minutes.

2. Put back in SRM splash damage as a function. Make the existing SRM damage algorithm a function. Make Streak damage a separate function.

2a. Stop calling the existing SRM damage function.
2b. When SRMs hit a target, call the SRM splash damage function (like it was in the old days)
2c. When SRMs hit a target, call the Streak damage (no-splash) function.

3. Remove ghost heat on ALL SRMs. This is stupid simple table edit for craps sake. Five minute job here.

4. Bring back the closed-beta SRM flight path (the close-in, spread, then close back in). You already wrote the code. Copy and paste, man.

PROFIT.

Russ, Paul: YOU ALREADY HAVE WRITTEN THE CODE. Structure the code properly. Use functions. End this madness now.

You have coders dedicated to supporting issues. WELL guess what? SRMs are an ISSUE. A BIG issue. Bigger than pulse lasers, flamers and machine guns... Combined!

We can live with no HSR for missiles. It is better than the current ball of shit we are dealing with. We can live with SRM splash damage. Splat Cats would be refreshing. Super Centurions would bring tears of joy to my eyes.

... I don't care if mechs disintegrate to SRMs again. It'd give me something to fear in my 733C. It'd give a reason to run... different types of builds on my 733C.


Do this... and you'll start seeing money trickle back into your coffers. You'll probably see attrition slow down... or even stop... as the gameplay will become immediately more interesting.

So there you go. Simple terms, simple solution, simple timeframe to do this. No new major code, just a few functions and a few lines here or there. Elementary changes that even a junior programmer could make in short order.

Get to it. Feel free to contact me if you want more info. I know you won't... but if you'd like... the door is open.



Oh, and to tease your memory, remember this?



It was supposed to be scary. That Atlas with SRMs... it murdered the Warhammer. I want that sight to be scary again.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 26 February 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Rhent]

The funny thing is, with their crap ghost heat system that they implemented, they could bring back the old system and you would be limited to 3 SRM6's if you want to do any kind of sustained firing.

[Mcgral18]

I'm wondering if they can bring the splash back, but only allow it to damage one component. That should theoretically help hit detection considerably more than the current 5CM. Nor will it do 20 damage per missile.

I just don't know how achievable that is.

[Mister Blastman]

Rhent, on 26 February 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

The funny thing is, with their crap ghost heat system that they implemented, they could bring back the old system and you would be limited to 3 SRM6's if you want to do any kind of sustained firing.

Great point. I left that out. Thanks.

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

I'm wondering if they can bring the splash back, but only allow it to damage one component. That should theoretically help hit detection considerably more than the current 5CM. Nor will it do 20 damage per missile.

I just don't know how achievable that is.

I believe that is like asking for a miracle worker.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 26 February 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[Mcgral18]

I forgot to add...flight speed and the cone of fire. They should be a tad, or a fair bit faster. The Artemis spiral was pretty nice as well. Something with a predictable flight path.

[Mister Blastman]

Yes yes. Great idea. I'll add it to the list.

[Bagheera]

Is selective hsr even a possibility?


Not a fan of bringing back the splash mechanic though, fixing a broken weapon by going back to a previously broken version doesn't seem like progress to me.

[Mister Blastman]

Bagheera, on 26 February 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Is selective hsr even a possibility?


Not a fan of bringing back the splash mechanic though, fixing a broken weapon by going back to a previously broken version doesn't seem like progress to me.

I don't see why not. They implemented it in stages. Obviously the code is robust enough to handle it. Making code modular is elementary unless the maroon writing it puts everying in [main]. That'd be soooo 1985 though on an Apple IIe using BASIC without subroutines (with line numbers too!).

[Josef Nader]

I love when people who have obviously never written a line of code before in their life talk about coding like it's something that can be done in an afternoon. None of these suggestions would function at all. Most likely, they'd cause the game to explode spectacularly, and then PGI would have to devote a ton of time to working backwards and fixing an implementation that no longer functions in their current implementation. This is totally arse-backwards. They need to devote time to fixing HSR for missiles and progressing forward.

If you knew anything about programming, you'd know that you can't just comment out new code and slap old code back in there, especially when you've been spending weeks changing the code around the function to work with your new code. It would take weeks to get the old code working again. That's weeks of wasted time.

Edited by Josef Nader, 26 February 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

I love when people who have obviously never written a line of code before in their life talk about coding like it's something that can be done in an afternoon. None of these suggestions would function at all. Most likely, they'd cause the game to explode spectacularly, and then PGI would have to devote a ton of time to working backwards and fixing an implementation that no longer functions in their current implementation. This is totally arse-backwards. They need to devote time to fixing HSR for missiles and progressing forward.

If you knew anything about programming, you'd know that you can't just comment out new code and slap old code back in there, especially when you've been spending weeks changing the code around the function to work with your new code. It would take weeks to get the old code working again. That's weeks of wasted time.

Hey, smarty-pants, guess what?

I have a Marketing/Sales degree and right out of college I was writing code for a .com in multiple languages, on multiple UNIX/Linux/AIX platforms doing all sorts of engine-level stuff from systems automation, AI, multi-system interaction, database-level stuff and more.

I've written plenty of code.

I don't do it anymore. I found coding to be a useful tool but not something I wanted to spend my life doing. It was cake and I enjoyed making languages do stuff they never were intended to do. However, Astro and Quantum Physics are far more interesting and relevant to our Universe along with General and Special Relativity, Particle Physics and String Theory. Oh, and trading stocks is, too.

So next time before you're so scathing, think before you type.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 26 February 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[Varent]

TBH....

I love srm. yes hit detection on them is crap for a FPS. However when they hit they are incredibly scary. The weight, to size to heat to damage ratio is extrema. Only complaint I have is the ammo. But then that is somewhat the balancing factor.

Wouldnt need to change anything on srm for me to use them. I still use them now. Probly my favorite weapon. Once they fix hit registration Ill simply probly never get out of an srm mech.

[Josef Nader]

And I'm a Computer Science Major with a focus in Game Design who's been writing his own games for almost 15 years. If were going to make stupid arguments from.authority, I think I win on that one.

The point still stands that it's arse-backwards to devote a ton of time to reimplementing a broken mechanic.

[ackstorm]

I use srms far more frequently than anyone else I play with and they work well. I can even hit and kill lights with them. I dont see a major problem. What I see is a bunch of whiney butthurt players who are pissed then cannot kill an atlas in 2 or 3 salvos anymore.

Edited by ackstorm, 26 February 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

And I'm a Computer Science Major with a focus in Game Design who's been writing his own games for almost 15 years. If were going to make stupid arguments from.authority, I think I win on that one.

The point still stands that it's arse-backwards to devote a ton of time to reimplementing a broken mechanic.

Oooooh. A Computer Science degree! I'm shaking.

Some of us don't need paper to do things in life. I'm pretty confident in that as I have a track-record to prove it (though I do have a 4-year degree in something stupid like Business which I admit was a waste of time... well, partly. If I didn't have a Business degree I'd of had a harder time getting into investing than I did).

A broken mechanic is better than a broken gameplay system. The gameplay we have at the moment is broken and stale. I believe a broken mechanic would add "fun" back into the mix and to me, that's worth it.

So what if two SRM 6s make a spider explode in one shot. That's better than 4 SRM 6s not doing any damage at all to them. Not that killing spiders is an issue for me... they aren't. I'm just using them as an example.

[White Panther]

Rhent, on 26 February 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

The funny thing is, with their crap ghost heat system that they implemented, they could bring back the old system and you would be limited to 3 SRM6's if you want to do any kind of sustained firing.

Yeah that's right, and if SRM's were reverted to the way they were before it would get rid of the ridiculous 6 srm6 splat cat alphas, bringing it more into balance I guess. You would still have that setup being an effective brawler without the 1 shot insta-core stuff happening.

[Mister Blastman]

ackstorm, on 26 February 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I use srms far more frequently than anyone else and they work well. I can even hit and kill lights with them. I dont see a major problem. What I see is a bunch of whiney butthurt players who are pissed then cannot kill an atlas in 2 or 3 salvos anymore.

I believe I know how to play this game quite well. Trust me when I say this: SRMs are nothing like they were 1.5 years ago. 1.5 years ago the game was on its way to being far more interesting to play (and already was).

[Bagheera]

Mister Blastman, on 26 February 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I don't see why not. They implemented it in stages. Obviously the code is robust enough to handle it.

I wouldn't know, that's why I asked. I don't recall the staged implementation, but I'll take your word for it.


Either way, splash was bad when it was in and it shouldn't return, even if fixed to not multiply damage as before.

Damage spread is already an enemy of the SRM, adding splash just makes spread worse.

They need to focus on the hit reg issues before anything else is changed. Otherwise we're trying to get a repeatable result by changing every variable at once. We have to know what we are working with before altering their balance stats.

ackstorm, on 26 February 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I use srms far more frequently than anyone else I play with and they work well. I can even hit and kill lights with them. I dont see a major problem. What I see is a bunch of whiney butthurt players who are pissed then cannot kill an atlas in 2 or 3 salvos anymore.

Just .. stop. Your anecdotal experience with what I'm guessing is a consistently low ping does not evidence what you claim. We go over this in every SRM thread and it's counter productive. If you can't keep current don't participate in the discussion. No one wants old SRMs from closed beta again. That's not what we are talking about.

Edited by Bagheera, 26 February 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Deathlike]

This issue can be summed up in three words:


BRING BACK BRAWLING

[Krujiente]

I am entirely against splash but favor fixing. More reliable hit detect would be a priority but I would also enjoy an increased flight speed, they'd still only be effective within their range cus thats all they ever go, so that's not an issue. But it would make them better for fighting smaller mechs. Also if they got a similar ammo-count bump that EVERY OTHER weapon got when moving from Table Top to MWO that would make me happy.


I really feel like that's all they need, increased ammo, faster flight speed, and a reliable hit detection, they still hit like a mack-truck in theory just sometimes they don't register flubs that up pretty good.

Edited by Krujiente, 26 February 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Bagheera, on 26 February 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

They need to focus on the hit reg issues before anything else is changed. Otherwise we're trying to get a repeatable result by changing every variable at once. We have to know what we are working with before altering their balance stats.

Well we had months of gameplay with the old system so we have a pretty good idea how it would end up.

Russ has already said there will be no fixes to SRM hit reg until after CW is released, so we are talking nine to twelve more months of the current gameplay balance until then.

That makes me sick to my stomach. I'd rather go back to something we already knew and loved (some hated) that would at least lure more players back into the brawl so the snipers have to take a few steps back and re-think what they are doing. Knowing that four Splat-Cats are coming your way while the other team has four 733Cs also shooting at you creates... interesting decisions. Sure, your team might have four 733Cs, too, but those Splat-Cats, once close enough, will mow down those 733Cs like they're nothing.

All of a sudden the stale sit-behind-a-hill and snipe gameplay... changes. People start moving. Stuff starts happening.