Willard Phule, on 27 February 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:
Fix the speed first. See what happens. AMS not working, tweak it. See what happens. Artemis making it too powerful? Tweak it, see what happens. It's a trial and error thing, like everything else.
I think they just don't want to mess with something because of the feedback they'll get.
Nope, not going to work, The whole mechanics of LRM's are bad right now. They still have super bad tendencies, which is why when they do change things, even small ones...there is a chance of an LRMpocalypse occurring again.
You say "Just make them faster", but some how by making them faster, it suddenly makes them leg more than they normally would. Which causes everyone to take LRM's and start legging eachother like crazy.
They need to rework the entire mechanic, and personally I think that also means getting rid of indirect fire
Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:
It took them 9 months to make an XML file change to make PPC heat right.
So maybe it'll take 3 years to fix ECM?
Yes, that's the case... and because ECM is the real culprit, why there can't be balanced LRMs, it's better to change the way how ECM works.
Well... they should have done this from the beginning, but... u know... PGI and balancing... >.<*
Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 February 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:
You say "Just make them faster", but some how by making them faster, it suddenly makes them leg more than they normally would. Which causes everyone to take LRM's and start legging eachother like crazy.
They need to rework the entire mechanic, and personally I think that also means getting rid of indirect fire
AHA! And there it is. And there's a solution....one so simple that I'm sure it must've been mentioned at least a thousand times by now.
We already know that they have the ability to code in random hit locations. Look at the Streaks. You don't get a whole hell of a lot more random than that. Ok, so that's a doable mechanic. Moving on.
LRMs, at least in TT, get grouped into 5 point damage bundles based on how many of the missiles actually hit....and then those bundles are assigned a random hit location.
So...since every LRM launcher is divisible by 5....why not just assign clusters of 5 a random hit location as soon as they're launched and let the AMS/Terrain/whatever deal with the clumps that don't actually hit?
Edited by Willard Phule, 27 February 2014 - 08:07 AM.
As a starting point Id like to to see LRM range increased to 120m/s to 150m/s and AMS range increased from 200m to 250m.
That makes LRMs 25% faster and gives AMS 25% longer range. So AMS is still just as effective vs LRMs but also better against Streaks (which is needed since AMS barely shoots down any Streaks at all right now)..
That would be balanced vs the target of the LRMs - but it would make for even more shared AMS fire from mechs who aren't the target.
Willard Phule, on 27 February 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:
So...since every LRM launcher is divisible by 5....why not just assign clusters of 5 a random hit location as soon as they're launched and let the AMS/Terrain/whatever deal with the clumps that don't actually hit?
I actually agree in theory - but they'd have to increase both damage & speed to compensate for the spread damage. (the speed - as missiles going for arms / legs would be easier to avoid)
Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 February 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:
.
As for Sandpit's "OMG WHY DO SOME PEOPLE SAY LRM'S SUCK AND SOME PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE AWESOME" question..
Sandpit, on 26 February 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:
I'm just curious about something
For all those saying LRMs are rare, why is it we have threads talking about how LRMs are ruling the battlefield?
See the difference there? Thanks for bringing more attention to my post though
In other words, everyone has different experiences. So all the "ehr meh gerd" (which you TRIED to make my post look like and failed) are ridiculous. all the "Everyone in the game agrees with me" is just as ridiculous.
Yours is NOT the only experience in the game. Thank you again for helping me prove my point though and thanks to you as well Noesis
Noesis, on 27 February 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:
Which is surprising really for Captain Subjective who you would have thought understood the value of opinions being equal but that limited anecdotal evidence does not demonstrate a holistic and factual representation
you're so cute
Thank you both for saying what I was going to say. You guys are learning I guess next time you can just call me Captain Pavlov
@Wanderer. There was a key word on your post. Optimized.
Look at nearly ANY mech in TT. Few, if any, are designs which we would consider optimized. Frequently you will see goofy crap like a mech having 3 slots of ammo in a side torso and no CASE, and nothing else, which guarantees that if that mech sucks a crit in that torso it automatically means an ammo explosion and the mech is dead (assuming there is ammo remaining in those slots).
We as MWO players, however, are quite good at optimizing build thanks to the free reign we have in mechlab. Thus the LRM boats (or indeed any 'meta' build) in MWO is going to be far more effective than an equivalent mech in TT.
Haven't understood your point.
What does it have to do with nooby gameplay of standing far away from enemies and shooting LRMs by teammates' lock on? If you speed up LRMs, chances, that they will hit slow targets, that don't have any good cover in vicinity of 200m will grow. Thus the balance will be broken. Balance is: "stand still far away - fail. Stay close, move a lot to keep minimal distance - wreck mechs". LRMs have a very convenient trajectory atm. Speed 'em up considerably, and I can imagine, how easy it will become to hit targets without any effort. That's a bad balance.
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand LRM boating and long range combat is just as much part of mechwarrior as being an idiot brawler who just goes 'mech smash' all day long with short range weapons.
Stay far away behind cover = smart
charge in and get shot often = dumb
Of course I could be yanking your chain hard. There is always a point for brawlers, as there is for missiles. If missiles were not a superior combat system, all modern navies of the world... as well as air forces would just go back to battleships and machine guns on their planes.
As a starting point Id like to to see LRM range increased to 120m/s to 150m/s and AMS range increased from 200m to 250m.
That makes LRMs 25% faster and gives AMS 25% longer range. So AMS is still just as effective vs LRMs but also better against Streaks (which is needed since AMS barely shoots down any Streaks at all right now).
Right but Streaks are so damn weak they don't need to be weaker.
Not every single match-up has to be balanced for the system as a whole to be balanced.
LRM balancing is more like this.
So... let's consider the balancing factors here. As someone pointed out earlier weapons are 'internally' balanced on its viability on the battlefield by slots, heat, weight, range and weapon speed as all weapons have.
Beyond getting out of the way of the shot, here is no defender way to defend against a PPC, laser, SRM or AC.
So really, what are the LRM characteristics people love or can't stand? The fact that they are guided and can hit targets from behind cover, and there is a LOT of counters to that even before we get into gear.
1. Sensors must be locked for guidance, otherwise you can dumbfire them and hit the location of ground where you want... and at current speeds that equals a miss 90% of the time unless the target is oblivious or stuck.
2. To gain lock on a target out of sight, another teammate must have them locked, meaning it takes 2 mechs to make that weapon function properly.
3. If lock is broken or target changed while missiles are in the air, the LRMs go to the 'last known spot', often missing the target. This often results in the LRM mech leaving itself vulnerable for attack, as well as the spotter.
So right there you have three practical, non-equipment counters that I consider quite fair. Something that no other weapon in the game (save streaks who won't even fire unless locked) needs. So before all the ECM platforms (which it has been stated time and again is a central pillar to MWO and is never going away) you already have that.
Then you have the menagerie of buff/nerf equipment out there. To block, you have:
ECM
AMS
The upcoming Chaff module
To enhance you have:
Artemis
TAG
BAP
NARC
Advance Target Decay
So why does there have to be more buffs than nerfs? Simple, one specific nerf is very OP: ECM and the functionality of the base LRM weapon has been nerfed too hard. Damage was reduced, speed was cut, missile grouping was messed up (30-40% average hit ratio... yeah it's nerfed with decreased damage) I mean I'd be for more anti-missile equipment if they weren't so overly effective as compared to the enhancements.
At least they have two developments that is going to change the landscape of LRMs: NARC buff (as it desperately needs) and LRM speed. I will be glad to see how that improves the LRM game. The NARC becoming an anti-ECM weapon that shuts it down like a UAV is brilliant. The counter is still the fact that it is a heavy, low ammo, short range weapon that many scout pilots will be loathe to use except when coordinating with teams. The speed buff will be great, unless we do have an inherent "you're always going to miss with X percentage at this range even if stationary damage nerf". Missing even when hitting at high speeds is not an improvement.
So I'm all for the improvements to help balance out the current king of the battlefield, ECM... and you're deluded if you don't think it is. I still think that ECM should not effect visual guidance **** like TAG, and Artemis should work much better as well as with indirect fire. I'm okay with the 'spread' damage as I am with lasers or LB 10X with missiles. Makes it easier to hit even a little and that's fair. I use a few piloting techniques to break terminal lock from time to time even when in the open.
The point is more that we have "overbalanced" one aspect of the game that affects essentially no other weapon because it has one very distinct advantage, indirect fire at locked targets. Locks are not easy to get or maintain even before the countermeasures. The problem has been more the community whine out there demanding all mechs "stand up and fight like a mech" instead of from behind cover. Well the game never worked that way even in tabletop so get used to it. You've had your fun for a while, but now it's time to get the missiles back on fair footing with ballistics and energy.
Aym, on 27 February 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:
Right but Streaks are so damn weak they don't need to be weaker.
Until Streaks are buffed by Artemis, they are only a threat to small or badly damaged mechs and an irritant to everything bigger. Streaks hammering CT all the time WOULD be a good threat to big mechs.
SMH edit... also we get "Incoming Missile" warnings to tell you when you're being fired at by missiles! What other weapon system gets that little nerf? Streaks. that's it. So, yeah... nerfitynerfnerfnerfwhinenerf.
LRMs are an odd animal. If you take a ton of them and your target makes a mistake, they're in for a world of hurt in a hurry. But, a single launcher is pretty much a non-factor. Then, of course, even if you take an LRM80, a single equipment addition of ECM negates everything that you've got. Terrain also plays a factor where as nobody can hit a target hiding behind a building but it is a crapshoot on how much ordinance you can land on a target that is hugging a small building (some hit, some don't). On top of that, you've got missile waste with the larger launchers and, unlike every other weapon in the game, you get worse using LRMs if you don't upgrade to tier 2 tech.
All of that aside, LRMs aren't hurting due to missile speed. They're hurting due to missile pathing. If I'm in Alpine Peaks and you're in the wide open, why are my missiles angling up, flattening out, and then angling down to the target? Furthermore, if I'm on Terra Therma and I'm at the base of the ramp with a target within 200m but NOT in LOS, why am I sending missiles into the terrain? At max distance, it took between 12-13 seconds for missiles to land on their target with a velocity of 100m/s. PGI buffed the speed so that it took between 9-10 seconds to land. Increasing the speed to 150m/s will put them at 7-8 seconds, give or take. Again, the issue isn't that the missiles aren't fast enough but rather that we're stuck with a single basic flight path that is based on range to target and one that always flies in a parabolic arc. Fix THAT and LRMs are fine without needing any changes or causing any issues with AMS.
#1. I know MWO is based on BattleTech and TT.. Operative phrase "BASED ON"
MWO will "NEVER" be an exact clone of TT, so you can wish in one hand and plop in the other, i know exactly which one of your hands will get filled first.
#2. I "NEVER" said MWO wasn't based on BattleTech TT, I said that MWO isn't BattleTech TT.
Quote ---> "NEWS FLASH : MWO is "NOT" BattleTech Tabletop, it never has been and never will be, that's just the reality of the situation and has been since the very begining."
I can't believe that at this point in the life of MWO that "ANYONE" is complaining about TT values being the same in MWO!
Tell me again how things like armor values and energy weapons in MWO are the same as TT specs.??
Please, please tell me your take on that.
It seems like a lot of people are ok with certain MWO stats being different from TT, and others that "THEY" don't like aren't ok.
Cherry picking which things you are ok with different from TT to MWO, and which things are not ok is just weak.
GOOD DAY SIR..!!!! (slams door in face)
Edited by Odins Fist, 27 February 2014 - 12:09 PM.
Kaeb Odellas, on 27 February 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:
Increase the AMS damage, not range. The protective multi-mech AMS cloud doesn't need to get bigger.
If PGI increases the missile speed and then increases the number of missiles AMS knocks down, what does that accomplish? The missiles will hurry up and get to you so they can do less damage faster? We're looking for a way to make LRMs viable, again, not an AMS sweetheart deal.
LRMs suck as they stand. Buff their speed, leave AMS alone, and let's see what happens.
Tycho von Gagern, on 27 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:
If PGI increases the missile speed and then increases the number of missiles AMS knocks down, what does that accomplish? The missiles will hurry up and get to you so they can do less damage faster? We're looking for a way to make LRMs viable, again, not an AMS sweetheart deal.
LRMs suck as they stand. Buff their speed, leave AMS alone, and let's see what happens.
The problems with LRMs not being a good weapon has nothing to do with AMS. Rather AMS is actually rare and poor option compared to many ways of protecting yourself from LRMs.
OMG! ECM! we are all DOOMED!
It is so unfair that any mech can equip this piece of equipment., by just giving up 1.5 tons!
Look at all it does?
It stops lasers, PPC's, ballistics, srms, MG's, LRM's streaks, from doing damage.
It makes the mech carrying it invisible so even if weapons could hurt it you cant see it, ever!
It is never on my team but the other team always has most of them in ECM mechs.
Just by toggling it on and off they can destroy any mech in the game.
When many of the players that are wise about ECM get too near to an ECM mech, they start frothing at the mouth, ranting and losing all bodily functions, necessitating a change of clothes.
I think some of the players may even wash before putting on new pants, but the hard core anti ECM crowd knows that next drop the same thing will happen, so why bother, poor kiddies.
ECM will also hack into your computer and steal stuff.... they aren't sure what, but they know it must be happening because it is ECM gosh darnit!
A tinfoil hat and the stomach full of lead paint chips can only do so much to combat ECM, that is why PGI must destroy it.
pps, please put in an easy button for me to destroy enemy mechs, without it I am terri-bad at these games.
Tycho von Gagern, on 27 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:
If PGI increases the missile speed and then increases the number of missiles AMS knocks down, what does that accomplish? The missiles will hurry up and get to you so they can do less damage faster? We're looking for a way to make LRMs viable, again, not an AMS sweetheart deal.
LRMs suck as they stand. Buff their speed, leave AMS alone, and let's see what happens.
AMS is fine.
LRMs need the speed buff so that
1. People don't have as long to run for cover
2. LRM mechs don't have to hold lock for as long to hit their target
3. So that they're more likely to be able to hit after losing line of sight (2.5 seconds of lock after loss of LOS is worth more with faster missiles)
4. Less likely to miss fast mechs due to targeting alghorithm re-adjusting target every X time (complex to explain - check LRM Commandments for better & more in-depth explanation)
Edited by Charons Little Helper, 27 February 2014 - 01:36 PM.
7
Willard Phule, on 27 February 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:
I guess next time you can just call me Captain Pavlov 
