41 replies to this topic

[Bhael Fire]

When the European servers go online, hopefully this will resolve some of these issues.

That said, I do think that if you ping is too high you should only be matched with other high ping players...and perhaps even booted from the matchmaking session if it's too high (with a warning notifying the player that their ping to too high).

[Chemie]

Badgerthej, on 26 February 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

chemie, when the spider was in its height of glorious broken hit detection I played in my spider and got ripped up horrendously, my lighter mechs are pretty much paper to most engagements with one current exception, my firestarter which apparently can run through hell flip off the devil kick his balls and come out fairly unscathed.

I wouldnt say i'm wrong about my original post because if i was I wouldnt be getting all this crap happening to me in the first place, however they have tweaked the spiders hit detection so its not a jolly trollbot anymore.

If it helps you, my firestarter is easily hit. I stick to 30ms ping sucks because everyone gets full damage while my FS is lucky for that 30 damage to reg 5

[Nick Makiaveli]

Badgerthej, on 26 February 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

thats not what i'm saying sandpit, i just want to know if anything is actually wrong with it, if not then i'll just have to suck it up like anyone else and deal with my HSR deaths.

as for your answer factorlanp, my recent demise to HSR ment that I saw a mech without ecm, just his cockpit and part of his torso (not enough to show any guns) and suddenly i loose a shoulder, so apparently he had an advantage that i didnt as he was obviously capable of firing his guns and i couldnt see this.

when it comes to the location of the shots, not even I had been that close to their impact location.... let alone him shooting at where he though/saw my mech.

Someone else may have answered this but I will give it a shot since you asked nicely.

You see where the client thinks you are. Your opponent sees what the server tells him. The truth is somewhere in between. So the server tries to sort out where you really are, where he really is, and whether or not you get hit etc.

If it makes you feel better, some people ***** that high ping players are hard to hit. Whether or not that is true, they say it. Also, I have a decent ping but not the best rig and I have had the same thing happen to me.

So it's not just you....

[Corvus Antaka]

newb rant is not new.

[Marj]

There is something very, very wrong with hit detection. My ping hovers around 300. When HSR first came in it was incredible. Every shot hit exactly where I aimed. Then something broke. Now I see very strange things, some of which shouldn't be possible according to the little I know about how these systems work.

Recently I had a game where I was using a shadow hawk with 2LL + streaks. I spent about a minute hitting the back of another mech (griffin I think) with the LL's from ~100m away. Zero damage registered on his paper doll. He didn't even realise I was there. I then killed a damaged spider. Took of one leg off then he stopped and I shot the other leg which was already stripped of armour. Took 6 or 7 hits at point blank range to take the leg off a stationery spider with 2LL. I had a few hits on other mechs throughout the match to grab assists. I finished the match with 600 damage, mostly on a spider and a griffin that registered very few hits while playing. How is this possible?

Some games I see shots that connect visually but don't appear to have hit. No reticle flash or flash on the target's paper doll. Then the target dies. I frequently brawl heavy and assault mechs at close range and do no damage for multiple alpha's in a row (all weapons, not just srm's). Then I'll suddenly start doing damage again on the location I'm aiming at, so it's not a question of lag or leading the target. Lag would be consistent, my ping is fairly stable. Occasionally I'll have a hit register even though my shot clearly missed behind the target.

The best one I've seen...pop out from behind cover and fire at a target with arm weapons...shots hit an invisible wall in front of me. The target then nails me in the CT even though my shot was blocked. How is that a lag issue? From what I can tell the hit detection issues are much more complicated than lag effects, especially since HSR used to work so well..

[Nick Makiaveli]

Marj, on 26 February 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

There is something very, very wrong with hit detection. My ping hovers around 300. When HSR first came in it was incredible. Every shot hit exactly where I aimed. Then something broke. Now I see very strange things, some of which shouldn't be possible according to the little I know about how these systems work.

Recently I had a game where I was using a shadow hawk with 2LL + streaks. I spent about a minute hitting the back of another mech (griffin I think) with the LL's from ~100m away. Zero damage registered on his paper doll. He didn't even realise I was there. I then killed a damaged spider. Took of one leg off then he stopped and I shot the other leg which was already stripped of armour. Took 6 or 7 hits at point blank range to take the leg off a stationery spider with 2LL. I had a few hits on other mechs throughout the match to grab assists. I finished the match with 600 damage, mostly on a spider and a griffin that registered very few hits while playing. How is this possible?

Some games I see shots that connect visually but don't appear to have hit. No reticle flash or flash on the target's paper doll. Then the target dies. I frequently brawl heavy and assault mechs at close range and do no damage for multiple alpha's in a row (all weapons, not just srm's). Then I'll suddenly start doing damage again on the location I'm aiming at, so it's not a question of lag or leading the target. Lag would be consistent, my ping is fairly stable. Occasionally I'll have a hit register even though my shot clearly missed behind the target.

The best one I've seen...pop out from behind cover and fire at a target with arm weapons...shots hit an invisible wall in front of me. The target then nails me in the CT even though my shot was blocked. How is that a lag issue? From what I can tell the hit detection issues are much more complicated than lag effects, especially since HSR used to work so well..

If your client is out of sync with the server, then what you describe is exactly what would happen.

Do you think you are never the person who is shot with no result?

[YueFei]

Due to the way HSR works, you can't wait until you see someone to begin reacting. It's very tiring, but you gotta move evasively basically all the time, anticipating that you'll be shot at.

BTW, this fact of MWO applies in both directions. If the shooter has high ping and the victim has low ping, HSR rewinds back to the shooter's state, so by the time the victim reacts he's already been hit. Vice-versa, if the shooter has low ping and the victim has high ping, by the time the victim sees the shooter and begins reacting, the victim's high ping means the server doesn't see his evasive move until a moment later.... so it's too late, and the victim gets hit before he can move.

Just twist and turn all the time. At least, until you get carpal tunnel syndrome from playing this crazy game.

[Reptilizer]

wintersborn, on 26 February 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Maybe if PGI had servers in other places like most shooters do.

You know like a West coast, Central or hell even a server in America or the UK etc.

For a shooter and this is a shooter at its base the hit detection is the first priority. I don't know or care how PGI's HSR works but what I do know is that when my ping is over 150 hit detection sucks.

HSR seems to be a cheap software attempt at a fix for not having local servers ?

I am in Northern California with the best ISP available to me and I have pings of sub 50 in most shooters not 120-180 like this game.

It is a problem for those who play shooters.

Well, latency is more or less ok at MWO. I do not get much better pings with the european servers of other games (120 vs. 100 ping).
Nonetheless there are other shooters out there that manage hit detection a lot better (Even Planetside 2...). I got the impression that the HSR used is some kind of in-house development of PGI instead of a well known (commercialized?) solution. And it was done comparably fast for a programming team of the size PGI can field. Smells like makeshift, minimally viable to me. And since it works, in a way at least, it will not be looked at for the next decade as long as there is other stuff out you could actually make money with.
The track record of PGIs predecessor companies is pointing this way at least.

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I do use my 4G phone to play, because we can't get cable or DSL where I live.

Cram an AC20 in man. Best use for the 4G...

Edited by Reptilizer, 27 February 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[Marj]

Nick Makiaveli, on 26 February 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

If your client is out of sync with the server, then what you describe is exactly what would happen.

Do you think you are never the person who is shot with no result?

Of course not. The point is that if the client was out of sync my shots would not register and that would be the end of it. How can you have a situation where damage isn't registered on targets in game but shows up on the scoreboard...meaning the server did register it? Where did that damage go?

How is a sync issue causing me to hit invisible walls on my end? When I fire and hit an invisible wall it's instant...it isn't checking for collision with the server before displaying the graphical effect. It's a geometry issue. If it's a geometry issue I shouldn't be hit when behind the invisible wall. Something else is going on.

*edit: I have seen situations where my shots hit a wall graphically but I then get a red reticle. I'm not saying sync issues don't occur, just that they don't explain everything that's happening.

As for sync issues and lost damage...this could be the case for the odd shot, but being out of sync for 30 seconds or more is ridiculous. Out of sync issues shouldn't happen for more than a few seconds in an fps if the netcode is working well. Plus, if it is sync issues, why did it work so well when HSR was first turned on? Also, if it was a sync issue I wouldn't run into situations where one weapon doesn't register while another does. They would all miss together. I one put 30 UAC5 rounds into a circling centurion 100m away, none registered. My mlas hit fine though. A sync issue would result in all shots missing since the server would see me as firing into thin air.

I played MW4 competitively in NBT with a 400 ping for years and it was easy to deal with, just lead the target according to ping. I never had a shot not register when it should. Just like I don't have these problems with other games with overseas servers now. I only played MWLL a little but I never had issues like these. It's MWO. We already know there's issues with SRM's, the devs have confirmed this. The problem is I'm seeing this with all other weapons (even streaks, but very rarely) when all these weapons used to hit perfectly.

Edited by Marj, 27 February 2014 - 01:16 AM.

[WarZ]

HSR failure isnt limited to high ping players. I average 50ms ping according to the game. I have constant occurrances of phantom damage (i take hits but never see anything on screen), hit reg failures (solid hits on enemy mechs and they take no damage at all, even showing weapon impact effects), and rubberbanding around enemy and friendly players.

Thier whole system is weak.

Honestly this game game felt 5x better before HSR. The concept makes sense. But the in game experience is highly counter intuitive and frustrating.

Edited by WarZ, 27 February 2014 - 01:18 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Chemie, on 26 February 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

.

So you are wrong OP. With a high ping comes a significant advantage,

What you fail to understand is that the high ping player has the problem you describe with every action sent and recieved from the game.
You really think that 30ms + 250ms for the SDR you are hitting is a penalty compared to the player with 250ms trying to hit a 250ms SDR?

[Tekadept]

HSR is shite no matter what the ping I think, with a 300 aussie Ping, it was better pre HSR. Yes better. Yes I had to lead mechs quite a lot but at least it was a CONSTANT amount, it never fluctated, I knew exactly how far ahead I had to aim. When HSR first came in it worked quite well and was a pleasant surprise. Shortly after though it degenerated into the abomination it appears to be today. It is Inconsistent, that is the main problem, one time an Ac10 will register beautifully, next time i have to lead by a mech width, next time its by 2 mech widths, it's that inconsistency that is the major issue for me.

[Svidro]

Badgerthej, on 26 February 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

my ping is around 114-124 actually but i still get hammered hard, be it shots that should have hit the enemy hitting somewhere else or not hitting at all, or shots that really shouldnt have hit me hitting me.

Huh, that's pretty much my ping in Socal, and I'm typically using gauss to snipe lights. Must be something other than the ping. One thing that can typically throw people off is the warping when mechs run into each other. Especially when mechs get clumped up at a corner and keep trying to back into each other, frequently what you see is not what you get.

[Badgerthej]

like tekadept says the system seems inconsistent, I'm forever adjusting shots for what should be the same damn trajectory, this means my shooting has to be irratic at best with ballistic/ppc and i tend to simply loadout on lasers to ease my infuriation.

from all the posts so far its looking like this is a general problem with HSR rather than actual latency issues because again like tekadept, before HSR I had to lead mechs in a particular way but it was almost always the same, now its gone all wobbly. but there have been a considerable amount of patches, tweaks and other mechanics that might have caused issues with the original implementations.

with that I give the suggestion to look into this and see if the system has destabilized and if so stabilize it. I am not a programmer nor am i very tech savvy so i dont know how long this would take. but a more regular hit detection would be pleasant for all involved (low and high ping players).

Edited by Badgerthej, 27 February 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Dreamslave]

The fact that the guy with low ping is getting the short of the stick is absurd. The player with the craptastic internet should be the one being penalized, not the other way around.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Marj, on 27 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Of course not. The point is that if the client was out of sync my shots would not register and that would be the end of it. How can you have a situation where damage isn't registered on targets in game but shows up on the scoreboard...meaning the server did register it? Where did that damage go?

How is a sync issue causing me to hit invisible walls on my end? When I fire and hit an invisible wall it's instant...it isn't checking for collision with the server before displaying the graphical effect. It's a geometry issue. If it's a geometry issue I shouldn't be hit when behind the invisible wall. Something else is going on.

*edit: I have seen situations where my shots hit a wall graphically but I then get a red reticle. I'm not saying sync issues don't occur, just that they don't explain everything that's happening.

As for sync issues and lost damage...this could be the case for the odd shot, but being out of sync for 30 seconds or more is ridiculous. Out of sync issues shouldn't happen for more than a few seconds in an fps if the netcode is working well. Plus, if it is sync issues, why did it work so well when HSR was first turned on? Also, if it was a sync issue I wouldn't run into situations where one weapon doesn't register while another does. They would all miss together. I one put 30 UAC5 rounds into a circling centurion 100m away, none registered. My mlas hit fine though. A sync issue would result in all shots missing since the server would see me as firing into thin air.

I played MW4 competitively in NBT with a 400 ping for years and it was easy to deal with, just lead the target according to ping. I never had a shot not register when it should. Just like I don't have these problems with other games with overseas servers now. I only played MWLL a little but I never had issues like these. It's MWO. We already know there's issues with SRM's, the devs have confirmed this. The problem is I'm seeing this with all other weapons (even streaks, but very rarely) when all these weapons used to hit perfectly.

I suspect "phantom" damage is the server being nice and giving you credit for damage that HSR removed.

As to walls, need more details. Did it block your low set torso weapons and not his high arm mounted weapons? As to the reticle, I've had it turn red when the guy was on the other side of a hill. I think it simply means they are in range of your weapons, not that you have a clear shot.

As to ML vs AC shots, a ML is beam DOT weapon, whereas the AC fires a single "bullet" with travel time. If you don't see the difference there, I'm not going to try to explain it.

Never played MW4 or LL, so I don't know how they had their servers set up, etc so I can't comment. I also can't say if you were as accurate as you think etc.

[RamataKhan]

What the OP is describing has never happened to me.

[Arrogusss]

I generally have a low ping 50-70ish and I encounter MANY problems I attribute to this HSR evening out things BS.
Usually if i see a lot of high ping players during the loading screen, and some even 500ish+, I know I am to be penalized.
It is almost as things don't sync up sometimes, then I start to lag, and when my zoom function stops working then I know it's DC time and I get booted and logged out, suffering a death on my KDR ratio that was undeservered.
I wish they would figure out a better way to even things out because it seems to me at times the whole thing gets broken and I don't know alot about programming etc... but I would bet it's the higher ping and lower ping that suffer glitches and such the most as the middle of the road players are already attuned to the median ping associated with the system.
my .03 cents

[Firewuff]

I agree with most people, there are a ton of legitimate reasons you got hit (includign ECM). That said HSR is HOST AUTHORATIVE which means your client may be a little out of sync and the shot hit the top of your hip before you were behind cover although your client thinks it hit the mountain (remeber your client is WAY behind). The fact any of this works at all with pings of 200 and above is just amazign in any case

I play with a ping of 250-300 every day. HSR works really well. The only time I see rubberband (another separate issue) is when one mech ends up ONTOP on another. realy I can live with that givent 95% of all my shots register correctly

[Marj]

Nick Makiaveli, on 27 February 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I suspect "phantom" damage is the server being nice and giving you credit for damage that HSR removed.

As to walls, need more details. Did it block your low set torso weapons and not his high arm mounted weapons? As to the reticle, I've had it turn red when the guy was on the other side of a hill. I think it simply means they are in range of your weapons, not that you have a clear shot.

As to ML vs AC shots, a ML is beam DOT weapon, whereas the AC fires a single "bullet" with travel time. If you don't see the difference there, I'm not going to try to explain it.

Never played MW4 or LL, so I don't know how they had their servers set up, etc so I can't comment. I also can't say if you were as accurate as you think etc.

Re walls, getting hit after firing a shot that's blocked happens very rarely. I have seen it happen once or twice when popping out from behind a building so it isn't simply the angle of terrain, but it's so rare it's not a big deal. It's just that I have seen it happen in situations where it doesn't make sense, leading me to think something more than simple lag effects or desync are taking place.

Re ml's and ac's...I know, it just doesn't feel like that's the issue. Given close range against a target moving at medium speed over a period of 30 seconds+ I don't see how constant misses with one weapon but hits with another could happen. I mentioned this instance because it was over such a long time I tried leading the target with the ac's but I just couldn't cause a a hit. Eventually things did start working normally and I took the centurion out, I suspect he was having issues hitting me too. Sure a desync between shots could cause this, or some sort of jitter resulting in the DOT weapon getting a few hits registering while others miss, but for 30 seconds+? The uac 5 isn't exactly slow firing either...getting 30 rounds out for no effect is a bit much. If nothing else, I think their servers need to sync with clients more often.

I'd really like a technical post from a dev on this issue. It's been going on for so long now and affects enough people that it deserves some sort of comment. Maybe the things I'm seeing are just lag effects that are unique to MWO's HSR system, but given the comments in this thread it doesn't seem to be ping related. I'd be happy if hit registration was poor (e.g. leading targets required) but consistent. This constant shift between reliable and garbage from game to game makes competing difficult.

Edit: I should probably note that sometimes it does work flawlessly. I've nailed fast moving lights at range with PPC's, hit JJ snipers before they drop behind cover etc. I've never been able to do this in other games with such a high ping without leading targets so HSR does do it's job sometimes, but then it'll suddenly start failing horribly.

Edited by Marj, 27 February 2014 - 10:00 PM.