131 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Here is a Feature Suggestion: Bring back Garth. Whether the story provided is BS or not, your company has not outgrown the need for Garth. (It might have been a routine evolution of the company, if Garth wasn't 75% of the game's entertainment.. )

You say you read the forums, and assuming that's true, you KNOW the only figure person at PGI that wasn't receiving mass amounts of flak for miscommunication, aloof and insulting communication, or lack of communication, was Garth. He kept the community involved and entertained with his antics and community involvement events (The "Garth.")

Of all the features of this game (community), Garth, at least IMO and I'm sure it's shared, ranked among the highest in value.

It is not a wise business decision to (willingly) part with a community favorite personality, especially when your actual product is severely lagging behind expectations and deadlines.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Here is a Feature Suggestion: Bring back Garth. Whether the story provided is BS or not, your company has not outgrown the need for Garth. (It might have been a routine evolution of the company, if Garth wasn't 75% of the game's entertainment.. )

You say you read the forums, and assuming that's true, you KNOW the only figure person at PGI that wasn't receiving mass amounts of flak for miscommunication, aloof and insulting communication, or lack of communication, was Garth. He kept the community involved and entertained with his antics and community involvement events (The "Garth.")

Of all the features of this game (community), Garth, at least IMO and I'm sure it's shared, ranked among the highest in value.

It is not a wise business decision to (willingly) part with a community favorite personality, especially when your actual product is severely lagging behind expectations and deadlines.

While I agree that garth did a great job, you assume that he wants to still work at PGI. Maybe it was his decision to not work for PGI any more.

If that would be the case I would be scared. I would not regret my investment into MW:O but if he left on his own free will it would raise the probability that I am not gonna spend any more cash in the near future.

I am thinking rats and sinking ships....no offense to garth meant.

[Veranova]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 19 February 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

While I agree that garth did a great job, you assume that he wants to still work at PGI. Maybe it was his decision to not work for PGI any more.

If that would be the case I would be scared. I would not regret my investment into MW:O but if he left on his own free will it would raise the probability that I am not gonna spend any more cash in the near future.

I am thinking rats and sinking ships....no offense to garth meant.

It sounds like he WAS fired. Even if not anything in his control.
Since PGI as a whole is doing the whole community management thing now, instead of hiding in back rooms and letting Garth do it, it's not inconceivable that they'd want to put the money paying his wages into more development resources.

More development is what the community wants right?

Edited by Veranova, 19 February 2014 - 08:18 AM.

[Asakara]

I would rather think he was laid off rather than fired.

In the professional world "fired" generally means the employee did something bad and the company is kicking them out... As opposed to "laid off" which generally means the company decided to get rid of the position even though the employee did nothing wrong.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Veranova, on 19 February 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

It sounds like he WAS fired. Even if not anything in his control.
Since PGI as a whole is doing the whole community management thing now, instead of hiding in back rooms and letting Garth do it, it's not inconceivable that they'd want to put the money paying his wages into more development resources.

More development is what the community wants right?

PGI is making so much money from this that I seriously doubt that its an "this or that" decision. If you had the chance to talk to garth on Teamspeak you noticed that the guy was fanatical about the game and the community.

If you fire people that are dedicated like that and liked by the community while keeping the people that designed UI 2.0, designed ghost heat, designed ECM in its first implementation...I think you get my drift.

If they fired Garth they had their reasons...if he left he had his reasons. Thinking about the 2nd part scares me.

[Bhael Fire]

This is really none our business.

Obviously Garth is a well thought of person in the community; that isn't going to change.

However, his personal affairs with PGI are none of our concern.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

This is really none our business.

Obviously Garth is a well thought of person in the community; that isn't going to change.

However, his personal affairs with PGI are none of our concern.

True.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

This is really none our business.

Obviously Garth is a well thought of person in the community; that isn't going to change.

However, his personal affairs with PGI are none of our concern.

I like that you said this. Exactly what I was thinking when they make the Command Chair post. It's nice they include us to let us know he's parted, but the reason why is non of our business and should only be between him and PGI, and up to him to let us in it.

[Deux]

Well considering until his post russ hasn't posted anything since February 4th, bryan ekman hasn't been seen since January, I would say that you still do need a community rep. To say you've grown beyond it seems like they just want us to shut up and drink the kool aid .

[Livewyr]

I disagree that it isn't our business. While we don't have a controlling stake in the company such as a shareholder does, we are the continuing investors. (Well, I was.)

We are effected positively and negatively by what PGI does. Garth leaving (and it doesn't sound like it was his choice according to Russ' post "...skillset no longer matching the needs...") has a negative impact as he was a favored figure in the community as I pointed out in the first place.

PGI has repeatedly failed to meet deadlines and has thus far delivered substandard product for something considered "launched" and rightfully, just about everyone in the PGI higher echelon staff has received flak for over-promising and under-delivering. The game has very little actually tying the community to it (I'd say just being battletech related is what is keeping a fair number of people here) and that was where Garth came in. He established a rapport with the community that helped counter Russ' "let them eat cake" island comments. Garth was a master at community relations, and one of few assets PGI had going for it in relation to the community.

Am I saying the sky is falling? No, PGi will survive- however I will not be buying anything more (which is sad, I wanted a Timberwolf when they come out) because I think PGI just shot itself in the foot again, in a big way.

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Here is a Feature Suggestion: Bring back Garth. Whether the story provided is BS or not, your company has not outgrown the need for Garth. (It might have been a routine evolution of the company, if Garth wasn't 75% of the game's entertainment.. )

That's funny, the only thing I could think reading that announcement was "And nothing of value was lost." I've said repeatedly that Garth was on the short list of people at PGI who absolutely should not hold their position, or any position.

The man did nothing of value. All he ever did was chat with NGNG people and every time he got a real question thrown at him, he had no idea. He didn't even understand Ghost Heat could trigger under 4 launchers and thought only a "couple 'mechs could cause it so it wasn't a big deal" for example.

Again, this was the #1 hot button community issue at the time and it proved he was not paying attention to a damned thing anyone was saying, far more than I care about him not knowing technical issues. This wasn't some obscure dirty question, this was the thing that was filling the forums (and look around, it still is) with rage.

I liked the post of him being fired because PGI firing him was the most hope I've had for the company in a long time. If they're willing to start canning people who don't do their job, maybe something will get done. But Garth was the worst Community Manager we've ever had, evident by the fact he has been not working that position since November and nobody noticed.

Deux, on 19 February 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well considering until his post russ hasn't posted anything since February 4th, bryan ekman hasn't been seen since January, I would say that you still do need a community rep. To say you've grown beyond it seems like they just want us to shut up and drink the kool aid .

As far as I'm concerned, we've always needed one.

The last time Garth contacted all the active units in the community was very very early into closed beta. After that, he entirely shut down, and wouldn't talk to units anymore. He wouldn't talk to people in forums, and he had the moderators here - many volunteer - doing all the Q&A setups and posts. And as I said, if he did get ask non-scripted hardball questions, it became immediately clear that he had absolutely no idea what was going on, despite the forums screaming the same thing in unison over and over. This indicates the community manager wasn't listening at all.

The man was doing absolutely nothing of value and his removal was well over a year overdue.

Russ & Paul best be glad that they own the company. Paul's departure in particular would likely cause an impromptu celebration across every unit in this game that still stands.

EDIT: Honestly his firing is the first glimmer of hope I have for this game, if ineffective employees that are proven failures are on the chopping block finally. If this happened sooner maybe we'd not had that year, year and a half where the core gameplay did not advance at all.

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 February 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

We are effected positively and negatively by what PGI does. Garth leaving (and it doesn't sound like it was his choice according to Russ' post "...skillset no longer matching the needs...") has a negative impact as he was a favored figure in the community as I pointed out in the first place.

Favored figure?

Everyone I know - everyone - felt he was a worthless joke that might have well have been fired years ago and nobody would have noticed.

All the man ever did was give misinformed bad interviews to NGNG. Look around here for the last year and tell me community ever felt managed or listened to? In fact the #1 thing that keeps coming up, at it's core, is "Freaking listen to us already, PGI!"

They need a community manager, one that has weight and will be actually listen. One that can convince Paul his ideas are bad when the community screams they are, and explain to him the logical arguments why - the kind of person who will sort through the trash to find the treasure, and convince the team to go in the direction that it's customers want.

Garth was not that person. Weather it is impossible for him to change anyone's mind anyway so he just gave up, or he never tried to do his job in the first place, I don't know. But he was an objective failure and I'm glad something was finally done about it.

People who don't do their job for years do deserve to get fired.

EDIT: PGI if you want to make another smart business decision, take Russ's twitter account away too. He's a one man PR disaster.

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 February 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Livewyr]

That's an interesting opinion, Victor.

2 Questions:
1: In your opinion, what should he have been doing aside from hosting community contests and chatting with the community? (I agree that I would've liked to see more Garth-Unit contact, but I also understand why he ceased it.)

2: It wasn't Garth's job to get debriefs on what the various Dev teams have added to the game, *that* is the job of the team's coordinator/leader to give. (I.E. Paul, David, and Matt doing what they're doing in the CC) Garth's job was to tie the community in, especially in lieu of community warfare, with fun things that could be done, such as "pimp my mech" and such as well as keep people entertained on the forums. Which until very recently, he did quite well. (There was a reason it was noticed that he was gone..) Garth's job was to be the mascot that people wanted to be around.. and he (and his Cicada) achieved that well.

One edit on seeing your most recent post: the PGI exec staff themselves (Russ and Paul) read the forums directly and see the issues first hand..if they won't budge at community outrage (3PV, ECM, Ghost Heat) what amount of weight can anyone hold to that?

Edited by Livewyr, 19 February 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

It is not a wise business decision to (willingly) part with a community favorite personality, especially when your actual product is severely lagging behind expectations and deadlines.

All that said, yes, it'd be great to see a new community manager. Bonus points if he listens, reads the forums, actually starts dialogues with units from different levels of the game and presents informed opinions in his posts.

i.e. I want a community manager that does his damn job. All I'm asking for.

[SI The Joker]

Victor Morson, on 19 February 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

All that said, yes, it'd be great to see a new community manager. Bonus points if he listens, reads the forums, actually starts dialogues with units from different levels of the game and presents informed opinions in his posts.

i.e. I want a community manager that does his damn job. All I'm asking for.

Sure, but if at every turn said community manager has his community suggestions rebuffed because PGI chooses to employ a game designer who doesn't give a damn what the community actually wants... what's the point?

EDIT: Grammar

Edited by SI The Joker, 19 February 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[Livewyr]

SI The Joker, on 19 February 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Sure, but if at every turn said community manager has his community suggestions rebuffed or told flat out no because PGI chooses to employ a game designer who doesn't give a damn what the community actually wants... what's the point?

My point exactly.

Russ and Paul have Russ and Paul's vision, community and community manager be damned.

Nobody really gave Garth flak (Victor, you're the first I've seen that I can remember, and I've been around a bit) because his views were in line with community concerns and he was a lot of fun.

Edited by Livewyr, 19 February 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

That's an interesting opinion, Victor.

2 Questions:
1: In your opinion, what should he have been doing aside from hosting community contests and chatting with the community? (I agree that I would've liked to see more Garth-Unit contact, but I also understand why he ceased it.)

Back in closed beta, briefly, Garth used to contact units with questionnaires. He'd hit a bunch of different ones up, have the leaders poll the pilots, and offer feedback. Much of this feedback was used. It was a night & day difference from how things are now.

The most notable example is the cargo ship on Forest Colony. That used to be flat land, and literally a dozen units asked for a crashed ship out there or something so that we'd have a reason to use that route. It was a real positive change.

-

Past that, I'd liked it if Garth was the one posting up and dialoguing with people, not the Moderators, exclusively on this forum. I'd also liked it if he was clearly reading what people were writing (not necessarily every post, I'm not mad - but the ones that keep coming up over and over again, i.e. Ghost Heat threads) and try to sift through them to find the gold, and bring that to the dev team.

There were tons of great suggestions and logical arguments to specific parts of it that went ignored. Even if Ghost Heat had to exist, for example, many things - like the way missiles link - that he should have at least been aware of when the community he was supposed to manage kept saying the same things.

If he's not listening to public feedback (forums stuff with a grain of salt - sifting the data is part of the CMs job in this case), not having any kind of private feedback (Contact with the active units keeping this game going, and that have a unique perspective on balance at higher levels), he's simply not fulfilling his role. Also he could have been far more active & vocal on twitter; there's no reason that Russ's twitter is far more active than the community manager's.

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

2: It wasn't Garth's job to get debriefs on what the various Dev teams have added to the game, *that* is the job of the team's coordinator/leader to give. (I.E. Paul, David, and Matt doing what they're doing in the CC) Garth's job was to tie the community in, especially in lieu of community warfare, with fun things that could be done, such as "pimp my mech" and such as well as keep people entertained on the forums. Which until very recently, he did quite well. (There was a reason it was noticed that he was gone..) Garth's job was to be the mascot that people wanted to be around.. and he (and his Cicada) achieved that well.

He wasn't a mascot.

His job was to listen to the community, find out the core issues, and be able to bring them to the developers. His job was to be the mouthpiece of the developers, and help explain why decisions were made. His job was to be on top of the current state of the game and the latest trends, so he could bring that data to devs and then tell us what their plans are once they've got them set.

As far as I can tell he wasn't doing any of this.

"He gave canned interviews and drove a Cicada."

Hell of a epitaph.

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Russ and Paul have Russ and Paul's vision, community and community manager be damned.

Long before this happened, I've repeatedly said that I felt bad for him if his situation was "Stuck in a position nobody is listening to." But that doesn't change the fact he did entirely give up trying, and that's unacceptable. At the very least he should have been an active and very visible member of this community and he wasn't.

If you don't listen to NGNG or remmeber closed beta, you would not know he existed. For the "head of the community" that's pretty bad.

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Nobody really gave Garth flak (Victor, you're the first I've seen that I can remember, and I've been around a bit) because his views were in line with community concerns and he was a lot of fun.

I got one real question to the man in his time on NGNG, and again, he didn't even fully understand the biggest issue in the community. If he had read even a single thread on the forums or talked to a single unit, he would have fully understood it. I'm not asking him to know what's going on under the hood or be a programmer.

What I am saying is when he doesn't know how many weapons it takes to trigger Ghost Heat and dismisses it as a "big deal only like 2 mechs can cause" when it was the peak of having 150+ active threads and absolute riots going on, that is a man who has fallen out of touch with everything.

TL/DR: Given he used to try back in closed beta, I suspect he tried at one point. I don't doubt he stopped trying when he wasn't being listened to, but you can't go to work daily and stop trying; most places wouldn't have given it over a year first.

EDIT: I'd just like to say there are several Moderators around here that have done far more for community management in the last six months than Garth did in his entire stay with the company.

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 February 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

This is really none our business.

Obviously Garth is a well thought of person in the community; that isn't going to change.

However, his personal affairs with PGI are none of our concern.

This but I hate that he's gone and wish him luck.

That said, the fact that he didn't say goodbye personally strongly implies that leaving wasn't his idea.

[Victor Morson]

I'm just curious, aside from being "liked" and NGNG stuff, can anyone point to a single thing he's done since Closed Beta? I can't think of even one. Not even forum posts, the mods always do that.