17 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

So after seeing a few threads of very small minded people, and well as having to quell fires in teamspeaks too. This thread is going to EXPLAIN whats going on so you won't have to rage anymore because something happened that you thought shouldn't of.


Ok, as host state rewind is explained, the server "rewinds" the enemy mech to where you (the player) sees them, so you can lead your shot and get a hit. Thats all find and dandy, when it works as intended (and it has been).

When you fire a shot and you see it land on the mech, but no damage is registered, that means you actually did MISS and infact did not hit, despite seeing it land. Thats host state rewind working as it should be, but in this case, the other way around. The player you shot at, was a "ghost" and he was actually a meter or two to the side of that shot, or behind that hill before your shots landed. What he would of seen on his screen, were your shots sailing past, just mere inches from his mech.

I have had this happen to me both ways, and in some strange ones too. Where shots I fired would hit the hill or side of a building, yet I would get damage registration on my cross-hair. It has happened the other way for me too, where a shot that I saw fly past me, but it actually hit my arm or side torso. Both of these cases are HSR working as intended. Its a little infuriating sometimes but just accept the fact that what is happening on your screen, is not what the SERVER is seeing. This is where just plain trial and error (against every target) takes some time to get used to. Many lights I have legged with a Guass or AC20 round, were shots that I lead the target, and MISSED in front of them. The shot missed on my screen, but I knew the server would say I hit.


So case in point.....do not AIM where the light mech IS, aim further ahead of him then you would normally and you will find that you will hit him. For energy its still point in click, but for ballistic based guns, you need to lead that target just a little more then normal. Is it broken? Kinda, thats a hard answer to do, but it could use some more refinement. Till then just work WITH it instead of trying to work against it.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 27 February 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

SirLANsalot, on 27 February 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

Yes, thats an easy answer to do, but it could use some more refinement. Till then just suffer WITH it instead of trying to work against it.

Fixed that for you.

[Zordicron]

Yeah but no. For energy it is not just point and click, and many times there is no "lead" you can do to make it work. It is related to your own PING, mine is bad and fluctuates because my ISP is terribad. There are mechs in each match, sometimes only one, but sometimes many, where no amount of anything I do will make the dmg i am inflicting on them actually count. They can be standing still, and I can move up behind them, and shoot exposed internals or a leg or whatever with a 30 point ML alpha, and see the ragdoll flash, and no dmg is esentially applied, or so little it is moot.

The devs say "the server is right" but really, there are times it isnt. The examples you give happen too, and I fully understand that and see it also both ways like you do. but these other times, hah. And it wil happen to other people on my team.

ever wonder how that one enemy, that guy in his blackjack or trebuchet, or that raven, how can that one enemy be avoiding fire from 5 team mates, or survive what looks like countless LL blasts? if I am shooting at that dang raven, and I MYSELF see a team mate plug twin LL into its face, and nothing happens, how is HSR applied in this instance?

you know those guys too, because at the end of the match they took a beat up HBK and got 5 kills all while not using cover and running through the middle of the enemy lance shooting their legs, getting partial LRM salvos on their back, etc. Somehow, they survive the impossible and profit in score.

i chalk it up to glitchy HSR, HSR code that cant account for variations in PING well enough, and accept it. When I encounter some enemy that has IMPOSSIBRU lagsheild, I will recognize it after a few shots and then i just move on and ignore that guy hoping someone else on my team has the anti-lgshield spray can with them.

Just had a match in river city tonight with a raven 3L that litterally stood in the middle of 6 of my team mates and ate lasers and srm's and a few LRM80 salvos while moving back oand forth without actually twisting or turning or anything. End of round:600 dmg 3 kills for that guy. We got him eventually when a streaktaro came around to our aid.

[ShinVector]

SirLANsalot, on 27 February 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

So after seeing a few threads of very small minded people, and well as having to quell fires in teamspeaks too. This thread is going to EXPLAIN whats going on so you won't have to rage anymore because something happened that you thought shouldn't of.
....

When you fire a shot and you see it land on the mech, but no damage is registered, that means you actually did MISS and infact did not hit, despite seeing it land. Thats host state rewind working as it should be, but in this case, the other way around. The player you shot at, was a "ghost" and he was actually a meter or two to the side of that shot, or behind that hill before your shots landed. What he would of seen on his screen, were your shots sailing past, just mere inches from his mech.

First like would like to quote this post !
http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/

Quote

From your perspective, it looks like you should be hitting that Jenner dead on, but from the perspective of the server it looks like you are completely missing! Don't worry, things are not hopeless. The server can do something smart and simple to ensure you land the hit you are expecting.

If the server kept track of all the past positions of the Jenner, the server could then use your ping to figure out exactly where the Jenner was on your screen when you shot. Lo and behold the blue box. It is lined up exactly with what you see on your screen. We sometimes call this blue box the rewound position of the Jenner. It's only a box in this picture for simplicity, but in reality all of the Jenner's geometry is actually moved back to this position. Now that the server knows where the Jenner should be, it can move the Jenner back to this spot, shoot your laser, see if you hit, then put the Jenner back to its original spot. Bam, your laser hits just like you expect.

Geeee.... I guess we are 'Small minded' for expecting HSR/HIT Reg to work like PGI said it would !?!?!?
DOH!!!

[ShinVector]

Eldagore, on 27 February 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Yeah but no. For energy it is not just point and click, and many times there is no "lead" you can do to make it work. It is related to your own PING, mine is bad and fluctuates because my ISP is terribad. There are mechs in each match, sometimes only one, but sometimes many, where no amount of anything I do will make the dmg i am inflicting on them actually count. They can be standing still, and I can move up behind them, and shoot exposed internals or a leg or whatever with a 30 point ML alpha, and see the ragdoll flash, and no dmg is esentially applied, or so little it is moot.

The devs say "the server is right" but really, there are times it isnt. The examples you give happen too, and I fully understand that and see it also both ways like you do. but these other times, hah. And it wil happen to other people on my team.

ever wonder how that one enemy, that guy in his blackjack or trebuchet, or that raven, how can that one enemy be avoiding fire from 5 team mates, or survive what looks like countless LL blasts? if I am shooting at that dang raven, and I MYSELF see a team mate plug twin LL into its face, and nothing happens, how is HSR applied in this instance?

you know those guys too, because at the end of the match they took a beat up HBK and got 5 kills all while not using cover and running through the middle of the enemy lance shooting their legs, getting partial LRM salvos on their back, etc. Somehow, they survive the impossible and profit in score.

i chalk it up to glitchy HSR, HSR code that cant account for variations in PING well enough, and accept it. When I encounter some enemy that has IMPOSSIBRU lagsheild, I will recognize it after a few shots and then i just move on and ignore that guy hoping someone else on my team has the anti-lgshield spray can with them.

Just had a match in river city tonight with a raven 3L that litterally stood in the middle of 6 of my team mates and ate lasers and srm's and a few LRM80 salvos while moving back oand forth without actually twisting or turning or anything. End of round:600 dmg 3 kills for that guy. We got him eventually when a streaktaro came around to our aid.

Yeah... My ISP looks ok on icmp pings... But I think what is happening is my UDP packet latency and jitter is terrible to Canada after lots of throttling/packet shaping...
My only hope for the moment was WTFast... but they are not compatible with MWO yet. Hiaz...

[Nryrony]

The problem with HSR is that its actually a "good" solution, it works at least most of the time very good. IF we would drop HSR and move "back" to classic Server/Ping calculations, everyone outside of Canada would suffer (due to bad pings), yes they could add regional servers, but this would split the community and you still had to "lead" your shots, even with "small" pings. Also lag would still be a problem.

The only "real" downside to HSR is that you think you did everything right and should have hit - or be in cover and did not. - But the frequency is relatively low.

[Joseph Mallan]

ShinVector, on 27 February 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

First like would like to quote this post !
http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/



Geeee.... I guess we are 'Small minded' for expecting HSR/HIT Reg to work like PGI said it would !?!?!?
DOH!!!

Welll PGI Said this would be a team oriented first person shooter that would hold as true as possible o the original IP...
...
...
We now Are going to make it harder for teamwork(read this rumor in another thread) to be used, while playing in 3pV utilizing Cool shots.

PGI has a habit of talking with a forked tongue.

[Ghogiel]

SirLANsalot, on 27 February 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

When you fire a shot and you see it land on the mech, but no damage is registered, that means you actually did MISS and infact did not hit, despite seeing it land. Thats host state rewind working as it should be, but in this case, the other way around. The player you shot at, was a "ghost" and he was actually a meter or two to the side of that shot, or behind that hill before your shots landed. What he would of seen on his screen, were your shots sailing past, just mere inches from his mech.

lol no

What you describe is the oposite of HSR.

There is no priority override for some clients over others. What should happen is the mechs shots reg becuse on his host sim the shots hit visually.

[Mcgral18]

I prefer to refer to HSR as ghost damage, it has a nicer ring to it.

[Mechteric]

HSR is still a major improvement over the lag shooting we had to do before. It seems it just needs more tuning.

[Mycrus]

It is dependent on shooter and target ping... 2 players with 250 ms will exceed hsr

[DaZur]

What I find frustrating is the global expectation of infallible perfection out of HSR...

Yes, HSR is intended to "help" mitigate the hit registration problems cause by high ping, jitter an poor line quality... That said, it can only do so much.

My irritation comes from the fact that far too many players refuse to accept some culpability in their game-play experience...

It's not PGIs job to fix internet connections being run through a 1970s hardware, utilizing out-dated de-optimized compression algorithms through over saturated telecommunications infrastructures.

[FactorlanP]

I understand what HSR is supposed to do, and I don't have a problem with it.

I simply wish that when I am hit, the sound would always play.

Quite often in an HSR situation, your mech will suddenly take a bunch of damage with zero audio cues. That irritates me. The system can apply the damage to my mech, why does it so frequently "forget" to play the audio that should accompany the damage?

[Product9]

I don't know how the netcode architecture for this game works, but I'm guessing it linearly interpolates between entities as updates come in. This isn't a great solution for anything over, say, 50 ms ping time.

There is no getting around the limitations imposed by the speed of light. Distance is the most important factor in online gameplay. The solution? Regional servers. Will it happen? Doubtful. Free to play games are designed around the bottom line, and as a result the experience suffers. Look at a game like Counter-Strike. It's been around forever now and it's still going strong. Why? Because it's designed around the experience, rather than as a means to profit. The community can run its own servers, and as a result they are everywhere. I can jump into a CS game and get less than 20 ping. On top of that, the Quake/Goldsrc/Source netcode is superior.

Check out this article: https://developer.va...ayer_Networking

I think this is what HSR wishes it was. Snapshot based netcode seems to me to be the best all around solution, but I don't think many games implement it. Of course, it's optimized for less than 100 ping, but that wouldn't be an issue with more servers around the world.

That said, keep in mind that the reason netcode is done this way is to avoid cheating. You can't trust the client, and thus the server is 'always right.' It would be too easy for hackers to hack the client and basically say every shot is a hit. That is why the game cannot register hits based on what you see on your screen. The only other solution would be a purely authoritative server model, which means the server would be responsible for everything and the client would only send input. This would result in a lot of input lag, but what you see on your screen would be very consistent, even if its technically 2 tenths of a second in the past.

Edited by Product9, 28 February 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Risen]

I'd rather go back to so called "lag-shooting" so it is only my ping I have to worry about and not my opponent's aswell.

Yes my ping from Germany is about 120-150 and yes I had to aim "half a screen" ahead of that Raven running past me at 80m but it was possible to practice that.
With HSR I have to check my opponents ping to see where I should lead the shots, low ping players being the far better targets.

[Product9]

Good point, Risen. Personally, I would rather look at how something is, rather than how it's 'supposed to be.' The more game developers try to hide the limitations, the worse the experience.

I think that hiding the facts is a fundamental problem in modern society. Everything is designed to hide the limitations from people, and as a result, society gets dumber and dumber.

[Odins Fist]

In other words do not trust your instruments, do not believe what you see right in front of you, and do not actually shoot at the targets you wish to hit. NONE of that should be acceptable to anyone with a brain.

Yeah that's a recipe for TUUURD SOUP, and looks like people are happy to get spoonfulls of it.

Edited by Odins Fist, 28 February 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Pjwned]

FactorlanP, on 28 February 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

I understand what HSR is supposed to do, and I don't have a problem with it.

I simply wish that when I am hit, the sound would always play.

Quite often in an HSR situation, your mech will suddenly take a bunch of damage with zero audio cues. That irritates me. The system can apply the damage to my mech, why does it so frequently "forget" to play the audio that should accompany the damage?

I may or may not have a problem with HSR the way it is now but this has been a frequent problem for me lately because I often rely on audio cues far more than visual to know when I'm being hit, and it's EXTREMELY irritating. It didn't seem like this was as much of a problem before a certain point, but now I can be getting pounded by autocannons from 800m away (thanks PGI for not doing jack shit about this sort of long range meta by the way) and I only notice when my armor turns orange or worse because there was no hit indication sound.