79 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Supersmacky, on 06 March 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Your statement is inaccurate and misleading. People are complaining that there is no option to have groups of 5 to 11. Not that solos have something they do not. If people want to solo, good for them. They are not doing something I can't do if I choose to. But as it stands no one can do a 5 to 11 man group whether they want to or not.

Also, there is a lack of free public 5 man groups because PGI won't put it in the game. It is not a matter of the option being there and people not using it. Again, there stated reason for not giving the option is the impact on the battle, not the lack of interest. So, people want it and PGI knows they want it, they just won't add it.

No disputing any of this, PGI has said that if you want to play a 5-11 man group it will be a PREMIUM match. I am simply defending PGIs decision to support solo PUG players by limiting teams to 1 premade, and not requiring solo players to fill gaps on 5-11 man teams.

That being said, I am 100% for free 5-11 matches. I understand that a 10 mech match (5v5) uses the same resources as a 24 mech match. Ok, I understand that, how about you charge the same for both, especially since 5-11 man matches don’t even use the matchmaker, they are invitation only.

Supersmacky, on 06 March 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

By the way, what evidence do you have that solo/pug-only players are the largest part of the community? You can't use PGIs metrics primarily because we have not seen the source data. We don't know if it takes into account that a person that is part of a unit might be playing solo until others from their unit are on. Or that they might have to launch solo BECAUSE, MWO does not allow groups larger than 4 (with the exception of 12 man groups) and their unit has 5 people on (thus leaving an odd man out). Or how much of that 84% are individual unique launches or are they just launches in general. From what I read it didn't sound like they drilled down the data much at all. Unless you have knowledge others do not I don't believe you can state the majority are solo-only players and the minority are group-droppers. I dare say everyone, preference for solo or grouping aside, drops solo from time to time. So I challenge your statement on its face without substantiating data to back it up.

Of course you use PGI’s metrics. It is an absurd assertion that PGI is driving some hidden solo agenda and providing false metrics. PGI’s goal is to make money, they have to support their consumers (and prioritize on the majority), even when those consumers change playing habits midstream. Remember several months ago when PGI’s metrics indicated most play was in groups, that wasn’t a lie then, and solo play isn’t a lie now, it is simply consumers changing habits.

It has already been observed that PGI looked at “launches” not players. This is likely because they don’t want to get bogged down in minutia. If you have 1,000 players that log in to play one match a month, is that more relevant that one player who plays 1,000 matches in a month? This likely why PGI uses Launches to compare solo vs groups. Sure solo player tend to launch more than groups in a given time period because they don’t have coordinate with 3 other people, but what metric do you use if not “number of games played”?

If you use “unique” players, what about all the people who try MWO once and leave because they got PUG stomped? You can’t, and PGI doesn’t they instead look at the aggregated metric of “launches” as it blends all unique launches in with dedicated players who may play 2-4 hours a day.

Amsro, on 06 March 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

But you are wrong on that point, you could make any size group 2-8. Then it was cut down to 2-4 + a seperate 8-man. (without any data provided to give a reason to the change)

All the teams struggled to maintain 8 players only at all times. This led to long wait times and the painful search for that 8th player when someone had to leave.

Really? one could almost draw the conclusion that Solo players, even on team speak do not want to be a part of larger teams.

Amsro, on 06 March 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Now the tumble weeds own the 12-Man only que and the team game is 80+% gone, instead of fixing their mistake they want to add MORE restrictions to further deter team play and then charge you MC to run a lobby.
But,
I enjoy lancing up with 3 other pilots, sometimes, if they don't already have a full lance. We'll just pretend to sync drop while being on the opposite teams all night.

Personally I think PGI opted to ignore the 12 man metrics because that landscape will change drastically when Community Warfare arrives. At least I hope this is the case, where there is a strong incentive for the best organizations in MWO to compete for the most lucrative planets.

As I mentioned, I really hope PGI allows you to play in 5-11 man groups for free, I think I will help the game overall. But only as long, and I cannot stress this enough, as Solo players are not required to participate.

[Amsro]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

As I mentioned, I really hope PGI allows you to play in 5-11 man groups for free, I think I will help the game overall. But only as long, and I cannot stress this enough, as Solo players are not required to participate.

I truly see only 1 option to retain the team aspect of the game while also allowing for solo players of all skill levels to enjoy the game filling much needed spots.

1-12 "casual" anyone and everyone (This is the Training Grounds, allows everyone to experience team play and/or level new mechs/chassis. Once you become proficent in this mode it's time to test your might in Community Warfare.)

1-12 "competetive" anyone and everyone (This is the CW, battle for the planets and front lines, using your perfected mech! Try your solo skills here perhaps you will be recruited!)

This everyone included idea allows for more teamwork in both the casual and competetive matches. No longer need to feel guilty for bringing that crappy unbasic locust, casual play encourages tweaking and experimenting.

All the while giving teams and experienced solo players a great team experience. You will likely find that most "good" pilots would rather be surrounded by more "good" pilots, enemy or otherwise.

Get the community together already.

Edited by Amsro, 07 March 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I have been playing PUG since closed beta and after everything that has been done to this game...I think match making is a BIT better than it was in the start.

WIth the ELO, 12v12, etc.. I now play games that don't result in a complete stomp 90% of the time (whether my team does the stomping or gets stomped). There use to be a time (back durring 8v8) when almost every game your team either won 8 to 1~2 or lost 1~2 to 8. Although that still happens, it is far less common (maybe 40% to 50% of the time).

Good close matches are still pretty rare, but many matches end about 12 to 6. Not a terribly close game, but I don't feel like it is a steam roll.

I still want some additional match making tweaking, but I don't feel that in the long run all things that have been done so far has been a step backward. I just feel that the progress has been slow and not as good as it could be.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 07 March 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[DONTOR]

You used the word "afraid" in conjunction with a video game far too many times. once is even too many.

[Odins Fist]

No Remorse, on 28 February 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

Bravo for pointing out the large gap in their data, they forced players to PUG by their inane decisions to remove 5-7 then 5-11 man teams,

"INANE"..?? What are you smoking..??
Anythng more then 4 man premades, but under 12 being allowed will just take us back to large amounts of complaining..

ALSO: I know of a large number of people that drop with 1 or 2 other people on a regular basis, so does that count them as team players or pugs in the eyes of PGI..???

Less teams play 12 mans because they are AFRAID of running 12 mans, and they usually don't have enough people willing to run them when they actually gather up the stones needed to launch a 12 man, you will hear moans and groans and all kinds of excuses why they don't want to run 12 mans when they actually have enough people in TS... It's pretty sad to listen to that kind of thing. But to bring back any team under 12 to be allowed to go against pugs would have the effect of new players leaving quickly, and vets seeing it as the last straw.
11 man premade in a PUG match would affect MWO, and every person that has been here since closed Beta knows exactly what i'm talking about, so no need to split hairs kids.

Don't back peddle on this PGI, you will get called out for it, and it will cause you problems.

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 March 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[WarHippy]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

No disputing any of this, PGI has said that if you want to play a 5-11 man group it will be a PREMIUM match. I am simply defending PGIs decision to support solo PUG players by limiting teams to 1 premade, and not requiring solo players to fill gaps on 5-11 man teams.

As a solo player I want to have the option to fill the gaps, and I would be happy if they stopped trying to do things that they think will make me happy at the expense of others and ultimately my own happiness.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

That being said, I am 100% for free 5-11 matches. I understand that a 10 mech match (5v5) uses the same resources as a 24 mech match. Ok, I understand that, how about you charge the same for both, especially since 5-11 man matches don’t even use the matchmaker, they are invitation only.

Why does it need to be a 5v5 if there are pugs to fill they are still making full use of the resources as a fully random drop would have? Why shouldn't a group of friends numbering 5-11 be allowed to make use of the matchmaker and play against a similarly ranked group? Why should it be invitation only if you are not having a tournament and are just there to play some games and grind some c-bill with your friends? Their proposed launcher has its place, and things like community driven tournaments with specific rules are a good place for it. However, shoehorning your average group of people that just want to play together into a situation where they can't earn anything, where they have to pay to group up, and where they can't even drop with some random new people or a random enemy team because it is invite only is not a good way to go about it for anyone.

[Odins Fist]

WarHippy, on 07 March 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Why does it need to be a 5v5 if there are pugs to fill they are still making full use of the resources as a fully random drop would have? Why shouldn't a group of friends numbering 5-11 be allowed to make use of the matchmaker and play against a similarly ranked group?

If you have 11 you are close enough to run a 12 man (find one more pilot), but I see a lot of groups AFRAID to run 12 mans, and also the MM does not always put the same number of premades against a team with the same amount of premades. I have seen that happen when running with only 1 other friend, then seeing a group of good friends running a full 4 man premade lance and asking my team how many premades we had, and getting the replies stating that there are none on my team, or worse yet, two 4 man premades on the enemy team and only one full 4 man premade on my team.. It's not a deal breaker for me, but just imagine the fire storm in the forums the first time an 11 man premade stomped the guts out of an enemy team that only had a 4 man premade within their ranks. You know this will happen if the MM acts the same as it has.

Are you prepared for the endless stream of posts and arguements over this..?? I guarantee there would be a large backlash over this, and also a fair amount of people hanging up their hats, and or taking a long break, and that's not good for MWO.

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 March 2014 - 11:36 AM.

[Sandpit]

Ryoken, on 28 February 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

PGI brutally missinterprets their data I am afraid to do this now.

^this unfortunately

[AdamBaines]

Man.....whenever I need some sleep, I just come to the MWO Forums, specifically the threads where people gripe about the game a lot, and read. Puts me right to sleep. The whine of people who are not getting their way is like the sound of the ocean or a cool spring breeze in the evening.

.....I should probably stop reading them at work then, and stick to reading at home.

[Odins Fist]

AdamBaines, on 07 March 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Man.....whenever I need some sleep,

If you're all tuckered out then you should take a nap.

[WarHippy]

Odins Fist, on 07 March 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

If you have 11 you are close enough to run a 12 man (find one more pilot), but I see a lot of groups AFRAID to run 12 mans, and also the MM does not always put the same number of premades against a team with the same amount of premades. I have seen that happen when running with only 1 other friend, then seeing a group of good friends running a full 4 man premade lance and asking my team how many premades we had, and getting the replies stating that there are none on my team, or worse yet, two 4 man premades on the enemy team and only one full 4 man premade on my team.. It's not a deal breaker for me, but just imagine the fire storm in the forums the first time an 11 man premade stomped the guts out of an enemy team that only had a 4 man premade within their ranks. You know this will happen if the MM acts the same as it has.

I sincerely doubt that people are afraid to drop in 12 mans, and I think you are letting your cockiness try to define them like one of those people that try to pick a fight but never take a swing at you and call you scared when you don't take the bait. It is pretty juvenile and eyeroll worthy.

Odins Fist, on 07 March 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Are you prepared for the endless stream of posts and arguements over this..?? I guarantee there would be a large backlash over this, and also a fair amount of people hanging up their hats, and or taking a long break, and that's not good for MWO.

There are already endless posts and arguments over this and any number of other topics. The thing is though the current stance that is preventing people from playing together has already caused people to hang up their hats and take a long break from the game so I'm not seeing the deterrent.

[Odins Fist]

WarHippy, on 07 March 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

I sincerely doubt that people are afraid to drop in 12 mans, and I think you are letting your cockiness try to define them like one of those people that try to pick a fight but never take a swing at you and call you scared when you don't take the bait. It is pretty juvenile and eyeroll worthy.

You need to step back son... I wasn't saying any of that to be mean or cocky, you assume incorrectly.
I sat in 4 different TS servers multiple times over the last 2 weeks, 4 different clans/guilds/organizations, and they had plenty of people there to game, and for their meeting nights (when 12 mans were supposed to happen), and listened to excuse after excuse why many members just wanted to run 4 mans instead, they split up into different channels and the 4 mans started up.
It's not like I live my life looking for 12 mans, quite the opposite, but if you go looking to 3 or 4 different guils/clans/organizations in which to drop in a 12 man for a change, you'd think it wouldn't be that difficult. But since I started playing again I have seen more and more of this happening.. It may not be completely representative of MWO, whatever, it's just what i'm seeing from some groups that were all fired up about 12 mans and now aren't I guess.

Roll your eyes all you want, those examples I just gave weren't the only time it happened looking to run 12 mans with friends, it just happened to be the reality of the situation, and yes they were afraid of something, whether it be their KD, win loss ratios, or something else it doesn't matter. When you know people long enough, or have ran enough matches with in a voice/TS server, you get to know when they are making excuses or maybe afraid when they start to explain why they don't want to run a certain game mode or something. My guess is that you were offended by my post, I have to wonder why now... Hmmmm

[Zolaz]

Hey PGI, if you want a larger population, let people group up. I know you like keeping the training wheels on so that people who play your game but cant do it will like it, but you are driving off your good players. If you drive off your super stars at your game that should set off warning bells and klaxons.

However, I think that warning bells and red alert signals are a daily and hourly thing at PGI.

[Reitrix]

The problem with 12 man drops is simply that without a co-ordinated 12 man drop on the other team it will be a 12 - 0 stomp of the most brutal variety.

So we come to the crux of the problem.
We do one of two things, we let 12mans drop regularly against 12 random PuGs and we have the Closed Beta unfair brutal stomps.
Or, we do as PGI has done and limit 12man drops to ONLY play against 12 man drops.

Right, now this has reduced the enjoyment for a small part of the community, the 12man *only* part. It had the positive effect of greatly improving the game for the solo droppers. In this instance, they improved the game for a greater majority of players.

I have seen a number of 12man advocates proclaim that the data is being skewed. But have they ever considered that its taking so long to find you a match precisely because their data is correct about the lack of active 12man drops?

Consider, if there are as many 12man units that the advocates proclaim exists, surely it would not take as long to find you a match, right? After all, the only limitation upon your 12man group is that you must fight another 12 man group.

And finally, those who cannot form a 12 man group. I agree you are getting the short end of the stick. But the problem is similar to the full 12man group. 8 players in voice communication will ruin a full solo drop team.

The solution for you is coming. We are getting Lobbies. wait to see how that turns out, and then we can offer up methods to improve it for those who fall between the 4 and 12 man groups.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Sable, on 03 March 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider that maybe just maybe.... the playerbase is larger than you originally thought? And that although you play in groups, and all you friends play in groups... that still may not account for how most other people play the game? I mostly play in groups myself of at least 2 and most of the time a full lance. From my point of view i'm always in a group. As the game has progressed new pilots try out the game. Russ tweeted that when they had the win a free mech thing going on there was a big influx of players. If you look or listen to PGI's reactions they were as surprised by their metrics as we are. It may be because there are a lot of new players that haven't found groups to play with yet. It may be because people have left the game and former groups have been reduced to individuals. Some may feel like the percentages aren't accurate, i don't doubt what their statistics are showing and as game companies must cater to its playerbase as a whole i don't have a problem with any of the things they've outlined in their innitial launch module. As a F2P game its always going to be evolving. If the playerbase demands more team oriented content i'm sure PGI will adjust its goals. Its not the end of the world, its only the beginning. I think their goals are fair minded considering the data they have in front of them.

Umm, how about a lot of the existing players base made a second account so they could grab the champion for it right off the bat. This gives them the flexibility with a second account to take on more than one front IF/when CW arrives.

Reitrix, on 08 March 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

The problem with 12 man drops is simply that without a co-ordinated 12 man drop on the other team it will be a 12 - 0 stomp of the most brutal variety.

So we come to the crux of the problem.
We do one of two things, we let 12mans drop regularly against 12 random PuGs and we have the Closed Beta unfair brutal stomps.
Or, we do as PGI has done and limit 12man drops to ONLY play against 12 man drops.

Right, now this has reduced the enjoyment for a small part of the community, the 12man *only* part. It had the positive effect of greatly improving the game for the solo droppers. In this instance, they improved the game for a greater majority of players.

I have seen a number of 12man advocates proclaim that the data is being skewed. But have they ever considered that its taking so long to find you a match precisely because their data is correct about the lack of active 12man drops?

Consider, if there are as many 12man units that the advocates proclaim exists, surely it would not take as long to find you a match, right? After all, the only limitation upon your 12man group is that you must fight another 12 man group.

And finally, those who cannot form a 12 man group. I agree you are getting the short end of the stick. But the problem is similar to the full 12man group. 8 players in voice communication will ruin a full solo drop team.

The solution for you is coming. We are getting Lobbies. wait to see how that turns out, and then we can offer up methods to improve it for those who fall between the 4 and 12 man groups.

I would just like to point out that 8 players who wind up on the same map who are in the same VOIP server but who do not often drop together often wind up as wrecks on the battlefield in a loosing effort. It would be like taking all the best hockey players from every team, throwing them all on the same team and sending them out onto the ice to play a college team that has played all season together. Unless 1 or 2 of them step up right away and all the rest willingly follow then the 8 man is actually much weaker than the other team with it's 1 x 4 man and 8 puggers.

I've played both sides, I've been in this situation on either end. The Boogieman is a lie, eat the cake.

[Reitrix]

Randalf Yorgen, on 08 March 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Umm, how about a lot of the existing players base made a second account so they could grab the champion for it right off the bat. This gives them the flexibility with a second account to take on more than one front IF/when CW arrives.



I would just like to point out that 8 players who wind up on the same map who are in the same VOIP server but who do not often drop together often wind up as wrecks on the battlefield in a loosing effort. It would be like taking all the best hockey players from every team, throwing them all on the same team and sending them out onto the ice to play a college team that has played all season together. Unless 1 or 2 of them step up right away and all the rest willingly follow then the 8 man is actually much weaker than the other team with it's 1 x 4 man and 8 puggers.

I've played both sides, I've been in this situation on either end. The Boogieman is a lie, eat the cake.

Except that in my example, specifically the part you quoted, i never suggested it was just 8 randoms who happen to be on the same channel. I meant a team of 8 players who knew each other, purposefully going into a public match against 12 solo players.
Because that is what this minority group wants to happen. And it will be just as bad for the solo team as it would be if that was a 12 man drop and not an 8 man.

[Supersmacky]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Of course you use PGI’s metrics. It is an absurd assertion that PGI is driving some hidden solo agenda and providing false metrics. PGI’s goal is to make money, they have to support their consumers (and prioritize on the majority), even when those consumers change playing habits midstream. Remember several months ago when PGI’s metrics indicated most play was in groups, that wasn’t a lie then, and solo play isn’t a lie now, it is simply consumers changing habits.

This is not what I said and you did not answer my question. What I said is 1) I do not believe they are interpreting the data correctly and 2) that they did not drill down enough to get a clear data picture. I also did not say it was a hidden solo agenda. PGI has been clear that they do not like the 5 to 11 man groups because of the impact on the match. Don't misrepresent what I said in order to make your position seems better. It is obvious where your sensibilities lie in the matter, which is fine. But don't create straw man arguments and put words in the mouths of others in order to state you view.

Metrics are just statistical data and there has to be a framework for interpretation. I can take a raw set of data and demonstrate all manner if incorrect conclusions if I do not interpret the data correctly and do not drill down sufficiently. For instance, if I have data that shows their are 1000 drops in a week I could incorrectly interpret that to indicate their are 1000 players per week in MWO. Without drilling down to see how many unique individuals dropped repeatedly I come to a false conclusion.

My belief is that PGI has a bias against the 5 to 11 man groups. My belief is based on their own statements, not just my imagination. They have already hamstrung to game to the point where you can't do 5 to 11 man drops and then claim that interest in doing do is negligible. As others have said, this leads units to try and sync 4 and 1 or 3 and 3 or 4 and 2 or any other combination. Thus further skewing their data set. There are more apparent holes in their interpretation of the data that I have already mentioned, so won't bother to repeat myself.

Again, unless you have personally seen the data they used you have no special knowledge that solo-only players are the majority. You keep saying that, but I now anyone outside the PGI staff have actually seen the source data. So, how can you possibly state that is true and accurate view of things? Their metrics show solo drops versus group drops, not "how many people play the game solo-only and how many are part of a unit that prefer to drop as a unit." Their "solo drop" data also doesn't take into account that a large part of that 84% may be those that try the game for a day/week/month, never spend any money and never come back to the game. It doesn't take into account the migration from solo-dropper to group drop (when they join a unit). There is no accounting for people that have left because grouping is so difficult to accomplish BECAUSE OF THE STATE OF THE GAME. So, lets see some data that shows 84% of unique players are solo-only (ever) players and not 84% are solo drops. Otherwise, I remain skeptical of their "metrics" and the conclusion they presented based on them.

[rolly]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 February 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I know in my case, other than the camaraderie there isn't any reason to drop in group any more. 18 months of the same game with Zero advancement why drop as a team to play? Give us a reason to be a team, give us missions with rewards, planets and factories to acquire. That is worth playing. W/L records if for kids needing Epeen enhancement.

THIS ^

[Novakaine]

The solution for you is coming. We are getting Lobbies. wait to see how that turns out, and then we can offer up methods to improve it for those who fall between the 4 and 12 man groups.

Yeah enough of it's coming soon.
Because it is not, the writing is on the wall.
Or at least not the way we might hope.
PGI has done absolutely nothing to encourage or boost team play.
Because of the alleged pug stomps.
Which only happens because.
1. Lack of skill and experience in this type of game play.
2. The lack of in game voice for various reasons.
3. Because some groups actually put a little "thought" into how they play and what types of mechs they bring.
4. The "I just want to brawl" gang who just runs straight and dies within 3 minutes of the match and then cry foul.
5. Just plain luck of the draw.
6. And PGI fear that if we did have lobbies that would lead to a splintering of the player base.
With the Davions and Stieners fighting Kurita and Mariks, nobody like House Liao so all will be kicking their butts.
Then there's the Clankers and all it brings.
Makes my head hurt.

[Sandpit]

Randalf Yorgen, on 08 March 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Umm, how about a lot of the existing players base made a second account so they could grab the champion for it right off the bat. This gives them the flexibility with a second account to take on more than one front IF/when CW arrives.


I've played both sides, I've been in this situation on either end. The Boogieman is a lie, eat the cake.

That actually made me think of something. I wonder (and have little faith) if PGI took into account when reviewing their data all of the alt accounts?

This means a player could be counted repeatedly in various ways. So if a dedicated lone wolf who never drops in groups has say 3 alt accounts and they only drop solo are they counting that as 3 players? This is more likely to happen with lone wolf types as opposed to players who belong to a unit and drop regularly with others in groups. That's not to say they don't but we are creatures of habit and once we find our groove and such with a unit you'll tend to spend more time on that account which would totally destroy the reliability and credibility of the data if they didn't account for alt accounts and ensure IP addys weren't counted as double.

I also let my kids use my account from time to time when they want to drop and they drop solo so even though it's my account that skews numbers. I never worried about that before but if they're going to use that kind of data to make fundamental changes to the game it leaves me a bit concerned .

I just really think they need to get someone who understands these kinds of things to review the data and give them the info. They're making big decisions based on little knowledge sometimes and it REALLY hurts the game and community as a whole