22 replies to this topic

[DjPush]

So. Why did the developers create this giant map when every PUG match I'm in ends up taking place at H9 I9 hill top. In my opinion, It is the worst place to fight on this map. A lot of people like to through the word "Ambush" or "Choke point" around when in fact it is neither.
An ambush would require that the enemy not know where you are thus making the surprise of attack the advantage over the enemy. A choke point is a narrow pass or natural feature that greatly reduces the enemies ability to fight. Usually by limiting the number of enemy mechs to reach your position or blocking their range of fire.
The hill at H9 and I9 does neither of these things. If anything It limits your ability to retreat without putting yourself into a area that becomes a choke point (i.e the canyon behind you, if you firing down hill). This area also provides anyone with patients and long range weapons an ideal location to pick you off as you are looking for targets down range. Lights or anyone with good elevation can also drop air strikes and arty strikes on your team as they huddle behind the one hill that provides cover from advancing enemies.

Why in gods name is this the place PUGs chose to fight on Alpine peaks?
What tactics would you suggest?

[Kalidane]

I really don't know but I am sick of everyone mindlessly making a beeline for it. Even better is when Red Team has the position, the only possible plan is a frontal assault.

The best games I can recall having on this map didn't involve the stupid mountain.

[Redshift2k5]

Nobody wants to be below the ridge with an OPFOR controlling the top.

I love the layout of Conquest because it offers little benefit to the I9 plateau, but for direct confrontation if you don't control the top you have little to do except push up hill to bring the fight to them.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

PGI Screwed up when they made the change, but that spot is high ground and the better position for brawler builds as you have the advantage. I personally go there every drop with my lance and if the rest of the team is both smart enough and fast enough to take it before the enemy has a chance, then we win the drop. I wouldn't refer to it as mindless as it's a dedicated strategy when I drop on the map much as it was to get to the radio tower first and control high ground, they just moved where everyone fights by moving the start points. Each map has a set of areas I like for one reason or another, but I never take a mindless approach to the game. Mindless is chasing the stick when there are other enemy mechs with weapons still in the fight, mindless is Puggernaught charge directly into the enemy, or not pressing "R" to see where the soft spot is on a target. I see those things happen all the time.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The terrain is about as good as you can ask for. Its an uphill charge for the enemy and any flanking routes take so long that if they send more than one or two to flank all you need to do is push down the hill where you have them greatly outnumbered.

If you don't make it to the top first going somewhere out of range of sniper fire from the hill is probably the better but boring decision.

[Modo44]

With the way the map is set up, you must take the central high ground. It is not great, just better than other options: If you go to the tower, your spot is smaller, making you easier to spot and strike. If you step away from the center, say goodbye to your base. If you hole up on a side on Skirmish, you will likely lose cover, and it always removes the option to retreat.

This only changes on Conquest, where you basically ignore gamma, and run around the 4 closer points.

Edited by Modo44, 28 February 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[DjPush]

But there are several areas on the map that provide better choke points and cover. I guess I just wish that people would take a chance every once and a while and try something different. I guess that might be asking too much of public groups. Even still, when I drop with my unit. We usually try other locations and plead with pugs to follow us but they usually won't.

[DONTOR]

Yup play conquest and you wont get the take the hill mentality.

[Modo44]

DjPush, on 28 February 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

But there are several areas on the map that provide better choke points and cover.

With no retreat options and/or very far from either base.

[warner2]

They mixed things up in conquest by moving the capture points, which worked.

Assault still has the issue because you can't really use the terrain south of the map without risking your base.

Skirmish still has the issue because PUG groups are chaotic and it's rare you'll get a team spawned north that, for example, refuses to assault the mountain after the team that spawned south took it. So it's like moths to a flame even on Skirmish where you can use any part of the map you want (like the middle of Terra Therma).

Bottom line, PGI need to design better maps. They need to fix Alpine by removing that massive, central feature, and Terra Therma, by removing that massive, central feature.

Tourmaline is better, and doesn't have a massive, central feature. Sure combat happens in the middle a lot on Assault, and to some degree on Skirmish, but it doesn't suffer the same issues due to the basic layout being better.

[Koniving]

Redshift2k5, on 28 February 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Nobody wants to be below the ridge with an OPFOR controlling the top.

I love the layout of Conquest because it offers little benefit to the I9 plateau, but for direct confrontation if you don't control the top you have little to do except push up hill to bring the fight to them.

The I9 plateau as you put it happens to be a prime defensive point for the primary base behind it. It's very easy for all lances on that side to reach in a very short amount of time.

The other side of the map has no such advantage, creating some serious problems.

I propose a lowering of that plateau. Or perhaps better yet a relocation of that base capture point. The one base is simply too protected with many advantageous high rise points and only one far out of the way counter rise (with the large tower near the defunct Atlas).

At the very least, spread the lances so that they aren't near that plateau. Put them ahead of it perhaps so that they would have to do the tough climb to turn around to get on it?

[Mindwipe]

Gotta agree with Koniving about the base there. If you take that rise you control huge parts of the map with the ability for even assaults to respond to enemy pushes from multiple directions without breaking up too much. Plus there's enough room up there to avoid artillery and dodge missiles.

What really bothers me, is that in Assault the base was moved closer to that mountain which allows the team to cover their own base without leaving the defensive formation. It was an unpleasant surprise to try and cap them out or draw back defenders during a failed assault on the ridge only to have autocannon shells and LRM's start smashing into me at while cowering behind what little structure they've left there.

So yeah, it's a winning position. There really aren't any huge downsides for holding it.

[Redshift2k5]

I wonder if changing the bases to a more north/south orientation

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...peaks&m=assault

with the lateua at I9 H9 H10, maybe bases at L7 and D7, equidistant from the plateau with it forming a strong center

Would probably still need some geometry changes due to a gentler slope on the north face

[One of Little Harmony]

Kalidane, on 28 February 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

I really don't know but I am sick of everyone mindlessly making a beeline for it. Even better is when Red Team has the position, the only possible plan is a frontal assault.

The best games I can recall having on this map didn't involve the stupid mountain.

You forgot the plan where you snipe from H11, a place where you have cover and the enemy really doesn't. Of course, convincing everyone on your team to stay far enough away from H9 to avoid just taking damage while manuvering to that hill... it might be impossible.

[PhoenixFire55]

There is a reason why most teams try to control that big hill in the middle. Not only you can clearly see where the enemy is from there, but you can also move to any direction in very little time, while being below that hill to any side requires a long route around it.

[xXBagheeraXx]

If by the hill you mean that mountain by the north base then yeah you SHOULD take it...but only if the enemy team is attacking you on the south...dumb pug teams that push the south when you have that mountain get SLAUGHTERED, however if they push the north, you should react as such, or you will get your butt handed to you on that mountain very quickly.

[_____]

In my pugging experience, the team that controls the top of the hill has a much better shot at winning. It's a big map and as others have said, as pugs don't follow directions well, and some will purposely ignore instruction. Any flanking move will likely separate groups of their mechs depending on their speed, leading to easy kills for the death blob coagulated on higher ground.

[Basskicker]

The trends of where the brawl(if that term can be used for alpine peaks) takes place change from month to month. Before the new spawn points I'd say 70% of matches were fought somewhere around the radio tower. When the spawn points were brought in it moved to the ridge at I10. Then it migrated to the hills at I think J9( not exactly sure of the grid as I don't have the map in front of me)...

Right now the reason IMO you are seeing mass people lining the Ridge is because that is the closest common landmark for all three lances to meet up on that side of the map. It also doesn't hurt that from that Ridge you can see every approach to your base and actually have a great firing position on enemies going for the Cap or the flank.

[Kalidane]

I think this does highlight the exact problem.

It's a location that offers so much advantage that it must be controlled. Trying any other tactical options in PUG play is unlikely to work. It makes every game on the map a re-run.

Maybe I'll stick to conquest for a while and see how life is

[Kjudoon]

DjPush, on 28 February 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

So. Why did the developers create this giant map when every PUG match I'm in ends up taking place at H9 I9 hill top. In my opinion, It is the worst place to fight on this map. A lot of people like to through the word "Ambush" or "Choke point" around when in fact it is neither.
An ambush would require that the enemy not know where you are thus making the surprise of attack the advantage over the enemy. A choke point is a narrow pass or natural feature that greatly reduces the enemies ability to fight. Usually by limiting the number of enemy mechs to reach your position or blocking their range of fire.
The hill at H9 and I9 does neither of these things. If anything It limits your ability to retreat without putting yourself into a area that becomes a choke point (i.e the canyon behind you, if you firing down hill). This area also provides anyone with patients and long range weapons an ideal location to pick you off as you are looking for targets down range. Lights or anyone with good elevation can also drop air strikes and arty strikes on your team as they huddle behind the one hill that provides cover from advancing enemies.

Why in gods name is this the place PUGs chose to fight on Alpine peaks?
What tactics would you suggest?

Smarter tactics is what's needed, not a change to Alpine Peaks drop points.

Snipper Peak (deliberately misspelled) in H9 is a fortified position with high ground. This makes it 3 times as difficult to assault for any force trying to claim it once occupied. You have sight lines and easy cover. Most times you will win if you are first to hold that position and fight smart.

The low end has few choices in dealing with the high end force that easily captures Snipper Peak. You can either wander into their fortified guns, go through pinch points that you can get gunned down in or find a different way to win. There is a LOT of map that is ignored due to impatience and lemming behavior. It is only when the low end takes a different path from assaulting Snipper Peak that they win consistantly. They don't pile up in the valley of death beneat the high ground. They don't just rush the guns and go through the sliuce gates south and west of the high side base. Basic map awareness, and realizing that almost 40% of the map is left unused is the solution.

The only thing PGI could do to make this more fair between the bases would be to move the Low Side base back to L3/K4 corner or F3 and the High Side base to the H13 or J12 area. Beyond that, they shouldn't consider changing anything more at this time.