101 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Fixed that for you. Two on one with good coordination should kill a Jenner... I know I can get that done on TT... Here, I still feel it could be done.

Not if the Jenners a more experienced pilot, which he obviously is, because hes not in a locust. A jenner-D will easily crush two locusts more often than not. Hell even a commando-2d will crush 2 locusts more often than not.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ok I do official like where you are going. You are not putting the cart before the horse. You want to gather data, You want to try multiple things before you pass final judgement... I don't have the patience for that today...

[Trauglodyte]

Khobai, on 28 February 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

my stalker only has two module slots so I cant use the launch module :\

I see what you did there.

[wwiiogre]

How is a reference to the fact you stated you needed cbills/xp in any way a personal attack?

The fact that PGI does not allow grinding in private matches makes perfect sense to me. If I want to pay mc for the use of a service you do not want to use, then why is that a problem?

Like all things PGI charges money for, you do not need to buy it if you do not want to.

Now please Noonan, stay on topic.

The topic was?

And if I did offend you, it was not intended.

Chris

[Joseph Mallan]

CapperDeluxe, on 28 February 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Huh? You mean "finally get what they've been wanting"?

I don't think is exactly what they were wanting, unless they were wanting to never play the Clan invasion at all.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 February 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Fixed that for you. Two on one with good coordination should kill a Jenner... I know I can get that done on TT... Here, I still feel it could be done.

Been done several times, right here in my basement. It all depends on the loadout, the terrain and the skill of the pilots.

You know what the best part of this thing is, right? The whole organizing of groups...and making it easy. You set up the room, invite the leader of the other team, then both of you get down to setting your teams up. And, if I'm reading this right, it doesn't have to be a 12 on 12. Private Premium Matches sound like they're gonna be awesome.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 February 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I understand what you mean Ghost, but a Jenner is almost 2 times the size of a Locust. With 75% more weight for armor,engine and weapons How is a Locust supposed to be balanced with a Jenner. If balance means what I think many of you want, they will not be balanced they will be equal and sometimes that just can't be done.

Your post above, sounds awesome Ogre! I like every word of it!

Here's the thing Joseph.

Every single time you bring a Locust, you're creating the issue. The reality is that players will bring non-Meta mechs. They want to, it can be fun or at least a change.

Here's the difference though. In the current system the Locust you bring could be matched on the other team by a Cataphract. They have 12 people, you have 12 people, the total tonnage is roughly approximated.

With the new system though you bringing a Locust means the worst, the absolute worst, is that the other team has a Jenner or Firestarter against your Locust. Not a Centurion or Cataphract.

Even better the MM will TRY to match your Locust with a Locust on the other team. This is FAR more likely because in matching weight classes the MM has far more predictable team compositions to work with; your Locust only needs calculated into the 2 other lights on your team. It doesn't have to fit you into the tonnage balance of your whole team. Also with Elo now matching in tiers (******* YAH! Dear god, sweet baby jesus there is nothing else in this change going to be more significant than that. No more elites + underhive = balanced) all it has to do is find another Locust roughly within your Elo range to put on the other team. If no Locust it'll find a Commando. No Mando it'll grab a Spider. No Spider, then it'll look for a Raven. No Raven, then a Jenner/Firestarter.

I think you'll be shocked at how often you'll find almost exact tonnage matches in the new system. By breaking Elo into tiers and limiting weight classes per team you make it shockingly easy statistically to close-fit teams.

This is going to reduce issues with mechs-per-team imbalance, not increase them. You're less likely to have a Locust on your team because you also got 4 Atlases while the other team is almost all Ilyas and a few Highlanders.

The Locust, being the only mech in its own tonnage class, is also the odd-man-out. Most other mechs have a couple other examples in their same tonnage. Griffin/Wolverine/Shawk, Hunchie/Cent, Treb/BJ...

You see what I mean? Also it means the Locust is only creating a relatively tiny imbalance over the team. Okay, so your team has a locust and the other team has a Jenner. Again, way way more likely to be Locust vs Commando or Locust vs Spider but assume nobody in your Elo tier was playing lights today. How significant is that in a 12 v 12 environment? So avoid the other Jenner. Stick with your teams other 2 lights (there will always be 2 other lights to stick with).

You'll have consistent team compositions that you can build your mech around. There will always be lights to hunt, there will always be heavies and assaults to backstab. There won't be 6 Ravens in a wolfpack on the other team. There will always be 3; only 3.

By the way, private matches will ABSOLUTELY let you play the Clan Invasion. In fact you can play it with the specific player Clan orgs. You can play it 10 v 12; you can mock up specific battles if you want. It doesn't matter how badly PGI screws up CW you actually can get exactly what you're looking for. Pick the teams, pick the battles, pick the environment and rules.

[wwiiogre]

Khobai,

Thankfully it never comes down to one jenner vs two locusts. It is 12 man vs 12 man. I agree except for grinding my locusts thru basic they were pretty much a waste. Hopefully in CW we will have some true tonnage drop limits where having that 20 ton locust will help field that extra Highlander. But for pugging, everyone has a style and a flavor they like best. At least the locust pilot will know he may only face a jenner, instead of a Highlander. That is better, not ideal but better.

Chris

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 28 February 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Here's the thing Joseph.

Every single time you bring a Locust, you're creating the issue. The reality is that players will bring non-Meta mechs. They want to, it can be fun or at least a change.

Here's the difference though. In the current system the Locust you bring could be matched on the other team by a Cataphract. They have 12 people, you have 12 people, the total tonnage is roughly approximated.

With the new system though you bringing a Locust means the worst, the absolute worst, is that the other team has a Jenner or Firestarter against your Locust. Not a Centurion or Cataphract.

Even better the MM will TRY to match your Locust with a Locust on the other team. This is FAR more likely because in matching weight classes the MM has far more predictable team compositions to work with; your Locust only needs calculated into the 2 other lights on your team. It doesn't have to fit you into the tonnage balance of your whole team. Also with Elo now matching in tiers (******* YAH! Dear god, sweet baby jesus there is nothing else in this change going to be more significant than that. No more elites + underhive = balanced) all it has to do is find another Locust roughly within your Elo range to put on the other team. If no Locust it'll find a Commando. No Mando it'll grab a Spider. No Spider, then it'll look for a Raven. No Raven, then a Jenner/Firestarter.

I think you'll be shocked at how often you'll find almost exact tonnage matches in the new system. By breaking Elo into tiers and limiting weight classes per team you make it shockingly easy statistically to close-fit teams.

This is going to reduce issues with mechs-per-team imbalance, not increase them. You're less likely to have a Locust on your team because you also got 4 Atlases while the other team is almost all Ilyas and a few Highlanders.

The Locust, being the only mech in its own tonnage class, is also the odd-man-out. Most other mechs have a couple other examples in their same tonnage. Griffin/Wolverine/Shawk, Hunchie/Cent, Treb/BJ...

You see what I mean? Also it means the Locust is only creating a relatively tiny imbalance over the team. Okay, so your team has a locust and the other team has a Jenner. Again, way way more likely to be Locust vs Commando or Locust vs Spider but assume nobody in your Elo tier was playing lights today. How significant is that in a 12 v 12 environment? So avoid the other Jenner. Stick with your teams other 2 lights (there will always be 2 other lights to stick with).

You'll have consistent team compositions that you can build your mech around. There will always be lights to hunt, there will always be heavies and assaults to backstab. There won't be 6 Ravens in a wolfpack on the other team. There will always be 3; only 3.

By the way, private matches will ABSOLUTELY let you play the Clan Invasion. In fact you can play it with the specific player Clan orgs. You can play it 10 v 12; you can mock up specific battles if you want. It doesn't matter how badly PGI screws up CW you actually can get exactly what you're looking for. Pick the teams, pick the battles, pick the environment and rules.

SO MM will go back to first trying to match evenly then b class like we had back in Closed Beta for a bit... I get that.

I cannot get control of Sudaten in a Private match. Making it a Blue Planet on the map, or has that been changed?

And as to team Size I go back to the 10th Lyran Guard and Zeta Battalion Wolf's Dragoons. Those Commands will be being filled by Loyal players and had TO&Es that do not fit 3/3/3/3 drop restrictions. Remember I am here to play the Clan Invasion, Eventually wearing Blue and White with a Silver Piping. I am not here for Private matches and League play.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 February 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[IceSerpent]

wwiiogre, on 28 February 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

It is better than what we have, which is a start. And before I tear it a new hole, I would at least like to drop under the new system 100 times or more and document and build my own data. Which is what I have done with elo, each time it is changed. I document 100 drops. 25 in each class. Half in groups and half solo.

That's certainly understandable, but for me personally no actual testing is needed when I can look at the design and instantly come up with a bunch of scenarios where the proposed idea doesn't work. A solution that only works half of the time is a "back to the drawing board" situation in my book.

Quote

How would I change what is proposed. I would add a max tonnage difference of 95 tons. I would add a max different in arty/air/uav as +1, I would add a max difference of ecm as +1.

Agreed on arty and ecm part (although both are better solved by BV system). Tonnage is a DoA idea no matter what you do with it, as there's no correlation between weight and quality.

Quote

I would code a handicap system to elo for actual number of drops of pilots so that one side would never have more than +1 of pilots with less than 25 drops and no more than +1 of pilots with between 26-100 drops. This means new players face new players and one side doesn't get stuck with more than the other except by a factor of 1. Not like the 6 new players I saw yesterday facing two 4mans and being out tonned by 400+ tons.

This is definitely a good idea.

[Khobai]

Quote

Thankfully it never comes down to one jenner vs two locusts.

Of course. Im just saying that battle value is the only way to balance locusts. Because tonnage wont work since two locusts will usually lose to a jenner.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 28 February 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Of course. Im just saying that battle value is the only way to balance locusts. Because tonnage wont work since two locusts will usually lose to a jenner.

Hows BV going to help the Locust? Using BV a pilot in an inferior Mechs could get a higher P/G skill to bring things up to snuff. We are restricted to our skillz!

[wwiiogre]

Yeah BV has no rating for modules, consumable modules, group drops, voip, actual pilot skills, etc.

Currently the only way I can rate a pilots skill is I can't. But I can rate their experience, by using the number of total drops that pilot has made and putting him in one of these spots:

New: 25 or fewer drops (know there will be people making new accounts, but what can you do)
Green: 26-100 drops
Regular: 101-500 drops
Veteran: 501-1000 drops
Elite: 1000+ drops

Now, how would that handicap an elo system? Do not know, or would you setup like tonnage class. Only allowing the same number of people in each class with near equal elo. Or do you break it up into 4 groups with veteran/elite being combined. So only 4 ways to measure a pilots experience like the tonnage classes.

Chris

[Joseph Mallan]

Something to think on sir!



Also even with over 1,000+ drops I am not an Elite player.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 February 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[wwiiogre]

Yes,

You are, you have experience and sometimes that is more important than twitch ability. Knowing how different mechs and their weapons systems intermix and can be applied on different maps and different game styles and knowing how to get the most of your group and their abilities separates pilots and leaders.

I will take a slow and steady player with good knowledge and wisdom over the twitch expert. Knowing when not to push or even when to push is important. More important than twitch any day.

Although having both is also good

Chris

[Joseph Mallan]

wwiiogre, on 28 February 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yes,

You are, you have experience and sometimes that is more important than twitch ability. Knowing how different mechs and their weapons systems intermix and can be applied on different maps and different game styles and knowing how to get the most of your group and their abilities separates pilots and leaders.

I will take a slow and steady player with good knowledge and wisdom over the twitch expert. Knowing when not to push or even when to push is important. More important than twitch any day.

Although having both is also good

Chris

Still doesn't mean I am ready to be called Elite. Vet maybe...

[IceSerpent]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 February 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Hows BV going to help the Locust? Using BV a pilot in an inferior Mechs could get a higher P/G skill to bring things up to snuff. We are restricted to our skillz!

BV matching means that your team getting a crappy mech (i.e. a Locust) forces the opposing team to also get a crappy mech (not necessarily the same kind, but equally bad according to BV calculation).

wwiiogre, on 28 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Yeah BV has no rating for modules, consumable modules, group drops, voip, actual pilot skills, etc.

Chris, there's nothing to stop you (well, PGI) from adding modules and consumables to BV calculation. You can also add Elo in there if you want to (or you can leave it as separate matching metric). Group drops are taken care of by only allowing (roughly) equal number and size of groups on each side - i.e. one side gets group of 7 and another gets a group of 6-8. VOIP can't be accounted for at all (even theoretically), as there's no way to determine who is using it and who isn't.

Quote

Currently the only way I can rate a pilots skill is I can't. But I can rate their experience, by using the number of total drops that pilot has made and putting him in one of these spots:

New: 25 or fewer drops (know there will be people making new accounts, but what can you do)
Green: 26-100 drops
Regular: 101-500 drops
Veteran: 501-1000 drops
Elite: 1000+ drops

Actually you can by using Elo...let me rephrase that - if PGI didn't completely mess up their implementation of Elo, you would be able to use it for accurate measurement of player skill.

Number of drops is not a good indicator of experience - somebody who made the same stupid mistake 1000 times in a row and died 30s after the start in each of those 1000 matches is not "Elite".
On the other hand, you can use number of drops and corresponding handicap to account for new player's Elo not being accurate yet. We don't know if that "new" or "green" player by your classification is in the correct Elo bracket, so by limiting the number of such players on each team we can mitigate the risk. Each team gets no more than one "dark horse", so to say.

[Trauglodyte]

Bhael Fire, on 28 February 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

I agree. If it comes to that, I would be extremely upset with PGI. Charging MC per premium private match would be a disastrous move on their part — unless it only cost each team leader a negligible amount like 1 MC per match.

But even that is pushing it...

I don't know that it'll be as disasterous as you think it might be. Back way in the day, Verant (the company, not player) opened up a premium server for Everquest. It was the same universe BUT all fo the raid bosses were run by Verant/Sony employees. They started this with GM events which progressed to the Halloween events when a GM would take over Mayong Mistmoore. The server fees went from the base $15 per month to something like $30 and, believe it or not, people flocked to it. It is one thing to beat a boss for gear when you know how their actions are scripted. It is something else entirely when you've got no idea what is going to happen. It was like full on PvP badass vs raids.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I dunno, I'm just kind of like...if you can't find 12 friends, and then another group with 12 guys to do a free private match and agree to some terms...that's kind of on you?

Or the game is so far gone population wise that it's a non-issue?

I'm still expecting more social tools to be implemented per Bryan making a separate thread for them. That should hopefully help facilitate that (Blind faith on that one).

But I mean...I used to 72+alternates together in my guild in Everquest to do raids.

12 people isn't that amazing.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 28 February 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 February 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Still doesn't mean I am ready to be called Elite. Vet maybe...

How about aged?