141 replies to this topic

[Astrolux]

Bad game is bad people. Just move along and take Domoneky's advice. $500 gold mechs, overpriced normal mechs, and charging you for "custom" game options. Seriously, you people are defending them charging money for players to drop. It's embarrassing and you should be ashamed to be defending this business practice. You will pay your money and you will pay it gladly but all this is going to do is continue to bring more bad press to MWO, drive more players away, and prevent more players from joining.

[carl kerensky]

And this is the problem. No healthy competition in the mechwarrior realm to give the devs a good dose of reality. They know how incredibly rabid we battletech fans are. Ive waited years for a new Mech game. Like most of us here. Thats no excuse to be served a half baked game based on the fact we will jump at whatever scraps we are given. I'm frankly saddened by it. That is how PGI is handling this very scenario. Not good in my book. For me I'm in idle mode and waiting to see what becomes of all this mishandling of the mech license. I hope for the best.

[Daggett]

Astrolux, on 03 March 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Bad game is bad people. Just move along and take Domoneky's advice. $500 gold mechs, overpriced normal mechs, and charging you for "custom" game options. Seriously, you people are defending them charging money for players to drop. It's embarrassing and you should be ashamed to be defending this business practice. You will pay your money and you will pay it gladly but all this is going to do is continue to bring more bad press to MWO, drive more players away, and prevent more players from joining.

Maybe a lot of players have a different point of view than you?
First: Do you need a 500$ gold mech to have fun? No? Than why does the price matter? I agree that it is high, but let's not forget that is a pure luxury item no one needs to play this game. For me it doesn't matter if they sell it for 5$ or 5000$. I simply don't want to walk around in a golden mech.

I agree that normal mechs are expensive too and the reason i have not bought one yet with MC.
But the non-hero ones can be obtained through playing and the Hero's are NOT needed to have fun and to be competitive.
And unlike me a lot of players are willing to pay the high price.

So let's be honest here: If you would sell a product where your customers are paying your extreme prices, would you lower them to decrease your income? Of cause you would not, it wouldn't be smart and put's your company at a risk. Instead you would do sales from time to time to appeal to the audience with more restricted pockets. I see no evilness here as long as my product is a luxury good like games and their content.

I'm far away from being a whale with my 50 bucks spent and i do not miss anything. So, please tell me how PGI has milked me when you compare my 500+ hours of playtime with those 50$? I got 50+ hours for each $ spent, how many retail games can compete with that? And yes, those 500+ hours have made at least as much fun as when playing a retail game. At least for me.

And regarding custom game options the only one which is debatable for most players is the one to change maps. All other 'premium' game options are not really interesting for the average casual player. Seriously i have seen much worse F2P content in other games than this.

After all the Devs HAVE to sell something to keep going and we all should be glad that the things they sell are really optional (or very cheap like mech bays) and we don't have stuff like WoT's gold-ammo and extreme grind or 'trading card'-based mech-customization where luck is a big factor which can be tuned with money.

Edited by Daggett, 03 March 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Daggett, on 03 March 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

...we don't have stuff like WoT's gold-ammo and extreme grind or 'trading card'-based mech-customization where luck is a big factor which can be tuned with money.

But we could...

I'd actually like to see impart of in-full that trading card like system for mech equipment. Or at least the variety of the equipment from multiple fictional manufactuerers with slightly differing behavior within acceptable boundries.

MWT did a good job with that.

Even so you could offer up a subscription system similar to SWTOR. Every week, you the user, would get MC points and some sort of random item awarded to you. This could be existing tech in the game like engine parts, weapons, or a stripped Chassis that can all be sold for C-Bills if you choose. Hell they could give colors and camo patterns away. As they charge an arm and a leg for that. Cause honestly a skin should not cost anywhere from $3 to $6 when the accepted price across the industry is $.99

Also this pricing is based on if you buy the $99 = 25,000MC scheme which is the best market value. As it stands 252.52MC = $1. I stopped and did the simple math - Cause I was curious.

I'd be inclined to find that price acceptable if the skin, camo pattern, being unlocked worked on more than just the one Mech Style that you purchase it for - IE all the mechs in the title. These are really just applied textures for the most part and if the process is refined you could get a new one made and tested every 2 weeks as a dev cycle.

I think the SWTOR Subscription model works out fairly ideally for the studio as well because it's guaranteed income for the allotted period people subscribe you can't cancel and lose that income. It gives the people the option to play for free, get limited time premium through points, or subscribe and get long term larger bonuses based on what's given away...albiet there is a little more overhead on maintaining that subscription model.

[Avimimus]

It still rubs me the wrong way that they are effectively charging a monthly rate to access features which they promised (and seemed to imply would be freely available).

I would never have obtained premium time if I new it couldn't be used in installments either.

There is a lack of clarity of just how much you have to pay to be able to use the feature you pay for... so I'm not buying. I have enough mechbays and I'll be selling the 1st generation mechs gradually (as they're no longer competitive with newer releases).

[Ordellus]

DaZur, on 03 March 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

So what exactly are you inferring... That PGI/IGP has made "enough money" and should now be a non-profit entity?

Please read previous posts before commenting.

I'm saying that it's about time we started to receive a quality game instead of more microtransactions.

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

Has PGI put it's P&L and B/Sheet up on the net or something. Cause I'd like to see it and form my own view.

On the other hand, if we do not have any facts what are we talking about? Our individual emotional responses to an external stimuli?

It's clear they have no problem pumping out the content they want to pump out, they clearly make enough money to run.
It's clear they produce ridiculously priced virtual good, and that those goods must be selling.
It's clear that "free to play" is the most profitable form of game created to date.
Stop pretending inferences can't be made, it's annoying.

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

Personally I'd be surprised if PGI (being governed by the Canadian Corporations Act) is anything more or anything less than a good corporate citizen.

Oh right, b/c governmental law surely dictates "good". Can we lay off the Phil 101 yet, jesus.

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

It charges what it believes to be a fair amount for its product and lets its customers decide what they want to buy. They have shown some willingness to discount prices to promote certain sales and they have listened to feedback from their customers about some pricing (Gold = Masakari pack after community calls).

1)No, it charges the absolute maximum it think will be paid.
2)They promote sales to increase intake from those that won't pay the crazy prices.
3) This is a form of the feedback you're talking about....

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

They provide exactly what they advertise, a Free to Play mech combat game (albeit they have expressed a desire to expand the current offering significantly in the form of CW amongst other things) and allow those who wish to access cosmetic items such as new mechs the option to do so with $$.

That's a cleverly disguised version of the truth.

They provide a free to play game that makes your play time as long, arduous, irritating, and all around limiting as they possibly can.... and then offer to sell you "enhanced features".... that have been considered standard for years.

Do they advertise more? No.
Does that mean players should just stop expecting good games and pay out the ass for crappy ones? Also no.

Craig Steele, on 03 March 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

Do some of us want more stuff for free, sure. I want a Ferrari too.

The salesman at Ferrari was very nice, took me for a test drive too. He said I could buy one if I had $300k.

I don't have that much, but it's not Ferrari's fault.

Did I say I wanted more Free stuff? No.
Did I say the company should worry less about money and more about treating their players with basic respect? Yes.
Are you making things up to defend a company, that only cares about getting as much money from you as possible while providing the worst possible game they can get away with, for no reason that I can find? Yes.

[Ordellus]

Daggett, on 03 March 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Maybe a lot of players have a different point of view than you?
First: Do you need a 500$ gold mech to have fun? No? Than why does the price matter? I agree that it is high, but let's not forget that is a pure luxury item no one needs to play this game. For me it doesn't matter if they sell it for 5$ or 5000$. I simply don't want to walk around in a golden mech.

1) I'm sure there are people that have a different opinon.
2)Nope
3a) It's insulting
3b) It shows where the companies priorities lie
3c) It's insulting

The rest of your post has already been covered in previous posts.

[Ordellus]

Savage Wolf, on 03 March 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

Why not? As long as their economy is healthy, it's all good. If they are showered in gold every day it still only means their economy is healthy to us players. What they can sell to what price is still the same.

1) It doesn't matter how much money they make, they aren't going to produce an awesome game because of it. They're just going to keep making money off of the lowest quality one they can.....

Hence this topic... try and keep up before commenting.

Savage Wolf, on 03 March 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

...while this still in some way gives money in the bank.

Again, only from the companies point of view.

I'm arguing for the consumer, but it's nice to know you are more about PGIs coffers then the product you pay for.

Savage Wolf, on 03 March 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

Then what is the problem? If other games gives you better features for less money, then why are you still here?

Right, everyone should just move along any time they see something they don't like. No reason to speak out and try to change things. *rolls eyes*

Savage Wolf, on 03 March 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

I totally agree with you. That is why we should fight the tendencies of P2W games for example. But what does this have to do with a game that lets you play for free on equal terms with other paying customers?

I'm not complaing about game balance, or pay to win, or anything like that. Again, please keep up with the topic.

Savage Wolf, on 03 March 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

That is exactly what I'm doing. And while there are those that do better than PGI, they are still doing good.

Also I believe that the amount of money they will earn on this will be minimal if any considering that this be a feature few actually needs and among those that do, only one needs premium. And that is money that will be used to pay expenses for extra servers.

And since it's so minimal you would think they would just not charge for it, out of respect to the players that have kept them eating this long.

[Ordellus]

Daggett, on 03 March 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

The subscription model is dying. A lot MMOs like Tera, Aion or even Star Wars have switched to the F2P model because they constantly need to get new players and can't afford to loose most of them because of an initial pay-barrier. Some games like EVE and WOW can still afford to hold on to the subscription model, but i would not wonder if they will switch too someday.

They need to players BECAUSE THE PRODUCT SUCKS.

Games like EVE and WOW can afford a subscription plan BECAUSE THE GAME IS WORTH PAYING FOR.

Daggett, on 03 March 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

First, MWO does not go 'far beyond' normal F2P. It's one of the few very fair F2P games which can be actually played well without paying money. Try WoT where you need years to grind a Tier X tank without premium, or the Dungeon Keeper mobile game.
Or Candy Crush Saga which uses mean psychological tricks to milk players (with a match-3 game!) making it one of the best selling F2P games ever.

Sure there are F2P games which are even more fair like LOL. But the LOL monetization concept only relies on quantity because their conversion rate (the number of players which are actually paying) is really bad. Without those millions of players LOL would not be profitable in it's current form.

I didn't realize that a cell phone game could be compared in any manner to a MMO PC game aside from that they are both played on electronics.....

Daggett, on 03 March 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

Second, have you ever calculated how much a dev team costs?
They have about 45 people in the core team fully working on MWO. Even if you would only pay them a lousy 30K per year, this would add up to a whopping 1.35 million each year. You can easily increase this annual cost to 2-3 millions if you give em a suitable salary and add the cost for their working space (office rent, hardware, software licenses, ect). Together with server costs, support, Cryengine + Mechwarrior licenses, marketing and the like, most of that 5 millions are already used up for sure.

Oh I could see it costing 5 million or so to run the game for a year.

But they made that in a month.... so can we address actual topics now.

Daggett, on 03 March 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

...

Everything else you've said can be countered with:

If they produce a solid, quality product.. .they will make money.

The blatant greed and money grabbing is evidence of nothing other than the disrespect, and callousness of whoever is in charge.

That kind of behavior should not be tolerated, much less defended and encouraged.

AkilaX, on 03 March 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I just wanna say OP, I had a rage like that once with Sony Online Entertainment, and it's not going to get any better. As long as people are willing to pay for half cooked product, there will be someone filling their pockets. The idea of "quality over quantity" has been thrown out the window.

The thing is, some of the PGI employees might read this, but not the ones that can or have the will do anything about it. Thus nothing will change.

I share your sentiment. However, arguing with faceless forum posters will only raise your blood pressure. If you have the means I suggest you go straight to the source; the big cheese of these companies. But even that might be more of a hassle than it's worth.

When all is said and done, as far as I'm concerned, I will only spend what I estimate the games value is to me. $50 is about all I will invest in MWO unless they take another route. Which is unlikely as long as people will pay for whatever they cook up be it garbage or not.
By "they" I mean ALL current and future game developing and producing companies. Not just PGI...

I weep for the day they charge us real cash for the in game ammunition...oh wait...World of Tanks did that...damn.

You're right on all accounts, but I can't in good conscience stay quite while a new generation of gamers grow up to believe this is something that shouldn't be stamped out as quickly as possible.

Domoneky, on 03 March 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

No, bite me.

[Craig Steele]

Ordellus, on 04 March 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

It's clear they have no problem pumping out the content they want to pump out, they clearly make enough money to run.
It's clear they produce ridiculously priced virtual good, and that those goods must be selling.
It's clear that "free to play" is the most profitable form of game created to date. (1)
Stop pretending inferences can't be made, it's annoying.



Oh right, b/c governmental law surely dictates "good" (2). Can we lay off the Phil 101 yet, jesus.



1)No, it charges the absolute maximum it think will be paid.
2)They promote sales to increase intake from those that won't pay the crazy prices. (3)
3) This is a form of the feedback you're talking about....



That's a cleverly disguised version of the truth. (4)

They provide a free to play game that makes your play time as long, arduous, irritating, and all around limiting as they possibly can.... and then offer to sell you "enhanced features".... that have been considered standard for years.

Do they advertise more? No.
Does that mean players should just stop expecting good games and pay out the ass for crappy ones? Also no.



Did I say I wanted more Free stuff? No (5).
Did I say the company should worry less about money and more about treating their players with basic respect? Yes.
Are you making things up to defend a company, that only cares about getting as much money from you as possible while providing the worst possible game they can get away with, for no reason that I can find? Yes.

(1) So thanks for telling us all your opinion, we can now safely disregard it as one that has no basis whatsoever.

(2) Govt Law certainly indicates legality, and in the absence of evidence otherwise all parties are assumed innocent. So if you have some proof of your claims of unethical activity you have an option to report them to the relevant authority.

(3) Yet according to your first statement they are economically viable so it must be you who is in the minority here with a view that PGI are gouging, otherwise why else would people keep coming back and spending money?

(4) Nothing disguised, simple fact. I get that it doesn't suit your argument so you want to ridicule it but it is still the fact. You don't represent the majority of people playing the game and you have very little insight into the majority so stop speaking for them. You just don't know what they like / want.

(5) If I was talking to you directly I would have quoted you.

So in summary, thanks for taking the time to reply.

[pbiggz]

http://www.z0r.de/1876

[John Decker]

I have two main points. I am pretty certain that saying what I have to say is what a lot of people might want to say and won't because they :

A:) believe reasonably it will have no effect on the already rediculous release plans.
B:) They don't want to risk a forum ban by telling PGI the truth even though the situation TOTALLY merits it.

Oh I'm also joining this argument very late because, I left the game once already due to the phoenix release fiasco. Yes I'm a beta player for over a year and have owned over 40 mechs, bought two heros and the overloard pack. So I feel I should be entitled to a little respect from PGI. After seeing these plans however, I am not gonna hold my breath and fully expect my opinion to be panned or worse. But, damn the torpedoes!

!. New Clan Mech packs are too fn expensive! I guess it's my own fault for buying the overlord package, but I did that because I wanted to help the game not become a freaking ***** for PGI! Seriously, 250 bucks? You can't be serious? Who did your marketing research? Did you do any marketing research? I know there are fanatics that are going to pay this, but you are going to hose so much of the community by doing this. Heck I already get ptw rage when I pull out my phoenix mechs or my Boar's Head(Boy what a mistake that was!)! No way I'd pay to get gang ***** by half the community, ohh well that might climb to 80% of the community if things go the way they should.

2. Golden skin mech is just absurb overt money whoring. `Nuff Said'

Suggestion: lower top pack to 100 bucks and Golden mech to 150. It will calm a lot of nerves, although it will still be excessive really.

Making it to where the clan mechs will totally outclass the standard mechs(meaning there won't be equalizer type upgrades for standrd mechs) woudl be really dissapointing, but we don't know what you guys are going to do about that yet.


These points may seem mundane, but I am not inclined to climb up your rediculous marketing sphincter and deal with the mess that is this release 'eye to 'eye' but would much rather call it what it is ..bullocks!

[FactorlanP]

Ngamok, on 03 March 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

They said it's a long way off to going that way. I have 6 months of premium banked atm. So I can host for at least 6 months.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The one thing that PGI has proven that they can do is put out new ways to dip into players wallets. If they feel like they need an injection of cash, the code for "Pay per Play" will materialize rapidly.

Mark my words.

[Davers]

John Decker, on 04 March 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

I have two main points. I am pretty certain that saying what I have to say is what a lot of people might want to say and won't because they :

A:) believe reasonably it will have no effect on the already rediculous release plans.
B:) They don't want to risk a forum ban by telling PGI the truth even though the situation TOTALLY merits it.

Oh I'm also joining this argument very late because, I left the game once already due to the phoenix release fiasco. Yes I'm a beta player for over a year and have owned over 40 mechs, bought two heros and the overloard pack. So I feel I should be entitled to a little respect from PGI. After seeing these plans however, I am not gonna hold my breath and fully expect my opinion to be panned or worse. But, damn the torpedoes!

!. New Clan Mech packs are too fn expensive! I guess it's my own fault for buying the overlord package, but I did that because I wanted to help the game not become a freaking ***** for PGI! Seriously, 250 bucks? You can't be serious? Who did your marketing research? Did you do any marketing research? I know there are fanatics that are going to pay this, but you are going to hose so much of the community by doing this. Heck I already get ptw rage when I pull out my phoenix mechs or my Boar's Head(Boy what a mistake that was!)! No way I'd pay to get gang ***** by half the community, ohh well that might climb to 80% of the community if things go the way they should.

2. Golden skin mech is just absurb overt money whoring. `Nuff Said'

Suggestion: lower top pack to 100 bucks and Golden mech to 150. It will calm a lot of nerves, although it will still be excessive really.

Making it to where the clan mechs will totally outclass the standard mechs(meaning there won't be equalizer type upgrades for standrd mechs) woudl be really dissapointing, but we don't know what you guys are going to do about that yet.


These points may seem mundane, but I am not inclined to climb up your rediculous marketing sphincter and deal with the mess that is this release 'eye to 'eye' but would much rather call it what it is ..bullocks!

You left because of the 'Phoenix fiasco'? What was that?

BH and Phoenix mechs ptw? What are you talking about?

You don't need to buy a Clan mech. Every single one of them will be available for Cbills, just like the Phoenix mechs.

Can't believe the number of people mad at the price of a gold skin. Didn't know so many people wanted to paint their mechs gold.

Marketing research? Star Citizen has $275 ships that you can't even play with yet.

Interesting quote about game funding- " Star Citizen[color=#000000] has raised well over $35m and shows no sign of slowing down. In games development terms that is not a huge budget, but for a crowd funded project it is a record."[/color]

[color=#000000]http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/01/would-you-spend-275-spaceship-game-doesnt-even-exist-yet[/color]

[John Decker]

Davers, on 04 March 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

You left because of the 'Phoenix fiasco'? What was that?

BH and Phoenix mechs ptw? What are you talking about?
BH Boar's Head , Phoenix Mechs = the Phoenix mech packages? PTW= Pay to win


Can't believe the number of people mad at the price of a gold skin. Didn't know so many people wanted to paint their mechs gold.
Really don't want to buy a gold mech either just think the price is rediculous, what will the next pack be $1000 mechs? Wait judging by the price hop this time, it'll be a Platinum skinned $3000 mech with a $1500 top pack.. I suppose you don't object to the price because someone wanted to start a game totally funded by the user community with no investment? Is this game such a game? I think not. Correct me if I am wrong. I wonder at you guys sometimes though, does PGI pay you to be their unofficial apologist?

Marketing research? Star Citizen has $275 ships that you can't even play with yet.
Answer my marketing research question by comparing apples to oranges ( or Mechs to Starfighters in this case )??? BTW Star Citizen is slated to be a totally open world game with the ability to explore the world find your own stars make your own corporations etc etc etc, it also will have a complete offline game to go along with the online content. But yeah we havent seen much yet ...no I haven't bought into Star Citizen yet, but it looks more interesting than this from the 'investment' side. Compared to the 500 dollar gold mech then, the Star Citizen Fighter will be a steal when it comes out.

Interesting quote about game funding- " Star Citizen[color=#000000] has raised well over $35m and shows no sign of slowing down. In games development terms that is not a huge budget, but for a crowd funded project it is a record."[/color]

[color=#000000] I would pay more potentially if I thought it made me a true participant in making a game like that succesful..but this??? Can't get as excited with the current state of things and ...promises promises ...even the promises arent at all awe inspiring. Chris Roberts game looks like it could be totally killer though in ways that I could only dream Mech Warrior could be. So the potential is there for Mechwarrior to match Chris Robert's effort, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime with this crowd.[/color]

[color=#000000]Like I said not a game that you can come close to comparing this one to, there just isnt nearly that much here. And KUDOS to Chris adn his team for making such a splash! Shame on you for comparing a static map based game to a full open world universe. Might as well compare an MMO to Pac man.[/color]

[color=#000000]There is a lot I like about MWO. There is HUGE potential. I see all that. I just don't see a vison being offered that gives me any confidence this game will ever be anything more than Ghost Recon with Mechs, and unfortunately pulling this hugely awesome franchise with it..so sad.[/color]

[color=#000000]http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/01/would-you-spend-275-spaceship-game-doesnt-even-exist-yet[/color]

[Reitrix]

Mirkk Defwode, on 03 March 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

As they charge an arm and a leg for that. Cause honestly a skin should not cost anywhere from $3 to $6 when the accepted price across the industry is $.99

In which industry is that a standard? Mobile/Facebook games?

[Craig Steele]

@ John Decker

There appears to be exactly zero truth in your post.

Are you sure you're not trolling for laughs?

[Mycrus]

Craig Steele, on 05 March 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

@ John Decker

There appears to be exactly zero truth in your post.

Are you sure you're not trolling for laughs?

Hi Mr. Steele, I miss you...

[Craig Steele]

Mycrus, on 05 March 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

Hi Mr. Steele, I miss you...

I miss you too.

But you have so many other friends that think highly of you for some reason. I'm sure you're going to be OK.

Just play nicely and you'll be fine.

Good luck

[Mycrus]

Craig Steele, on 05 March 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

I miss you too.

But you have so many other friends that think highly of you for some reason. I'm sure you're going to be OK.

Just play nicely and you'll be fine.

Good luck

Does it means we can't even be friend zoned?

I thought we had a "moment"?