115 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 06 March 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Or you could just get some good alrounder mechs and hot drop them on top of his force. Even hardened armor won't save his mechs as soon as you are in close combat range. And with their crawling land speed they will be an easy target for counter artillery and air strikes, not to speak of infantry, battle armor and mines.

Fun Fact: A Union drop ship has only slightly more BV than one of the OPs mechs, so you can easily match his forces with an adequate mech force and still have plenty BV to charter an Union or two to drop your mechs on his (not to forget that you'll have a drop ship packed with guns supporting you if you wish).

What is the BV of a Star Lord Class Jump Ship?

2.0 is not listed on Sarna, but let me say, on the Master Unit List, the Aquilla Transport Jumpship is listed at 600 BV.

A Dire Wolf has roughly 2,500. So according to your reasoning I can bring in 4 Jump Ships for 1 Assault Mech.

Note according to BV 1.0, which does not often differ significantly from 2.0, an Star Lord Jump Ship has 604 BV. So technically, I can outnumber your Union Drop Ships with my Star Lord Jump Ships almost 6-1 if we are going to follow this type of reasoning.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 March 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[LoPanShui]

If we're going into actual monetary values here, and we're looking at a Battallion of these things, that's 940+ Million C-Bills in just 'Mechs. That is a lot of money to be pouring into a single Battallion, and makes it the absolute best target I have ever seen for a Naval engagement. if you're spending that much of your budget on 36 'Mechs then I would definitely, as a general, sit there with half that price in dropships and aerospace fighters to just shoot down their transports before they make landfall.

If we're speaking from an in universe perspective, I mean.

Eggs, Baskets, etc. Considering militaries don't have infinite budgets I'd assume I'd just severely crippled or at least struck a massive blow to your force. If you're running units that expensive you can't have much in the way of other forces, so I can definitely commit a 2 or 3 to one air advantage since I'd definitely outnumber your overall force.

Edited by LoPanShui, 06 March 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

LoPanShui, on 06 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

If we're going into actual monetary values here, and we're looking at a Battallion of these things, that's 940+ Million C-Bills in just 'Mechs. That is a lot of money to be pouring into a single Battallion, and makes it the absolute best target I have ever seen for a Naval engagement. if you're spending that much of your budget on 36 'Mechs then I would definitely, as a general, sit there with half that price in dropships and aerospace fighters to just shoot down their transports before they make landfall.

If we're speaking from an in universe perspective, I mean.

So why does the Mad Cat Mark 4 exist? That is 72,000,000 c-bills. Also why do you get more Drop Ships and Aerospace? Wouldn't the fact that I need less Drop Ships to transport my Mechs, mean I have more to devote to Aerospace fighters?

I can see you arguing in a game that if I bring in a better Mech design, you should get something extra to balance this. From an "in universe perspective" though this does not hold water. House Liao is not going to say "Well our Mech designs are better then theirs, so let's allow them to have extra Drop Ships and Aerospace fighters. "

And before you say the "cost" makes it impossible- consider: the Mad Cat Mrk 4 costs more then 3 times as much. Likewise even Liao, was able to equip a huge number of their Mechs with experimental TSM during the Fourth Succession War, this was done in record time (basically right after Allard stole it from the FedSuns), and Liao is not exactly known as the biggest spender on Mechs. The economy of this universe is not nearly as restrictive as you are pretending.

There are Assault Battalions using XL Engines primarily. In terms of cost, that is about as much as my Lancea.

Also before you say Mixed Tech makes it impossible, I'd urge to you read the 3145 Tech Readouts where Mixed Tech is as common as dirt.

LoPanShui, on 06 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Eggs, Baskets, etc. Considering militaries don't have infinite budgets I'd assume I'd just severely crippled or at least struck a massive blow to your force. If you're running units that expensive you can't have much in the way of other forces, so I can definitely commit a 2 or 3 to one air advantage since I'd definitely outnumber your overall force.

You've just admitted you need to bring in extra Naval and Aerospace resources to counter my Mechs. That means I can spread my Naval/Aerospace resources to various spots while you are focused to place these resources in greater numbers to counter a single Battalion.

In effect, I am doing the exact opposite of what you are saying since I need to use less Drop Ships to transport my Mechs. That means, I have more for Aerospace and Infantry, etc. It also means, my Jump Ships, which only carry a certain amount of Drop Ships, can more efficiently allocate forces. If my Jump Ship can carry six drops, and I only use 2 for Mechs, I can use the other four for Aerospace and Infantry.

If you need 4-6 for Mechs, you will have not even close to as much in terms of these support units. Now if you talk about bringing in extra Jump Ships, you may as well just argue you are planning on just declaring yourself the winner no matter what. Having to bring in extra Jump Ships to win a battle is hardly what I would call resource efficient.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 March 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Also let me say, if I was the Commander, and I noticed the enemy was forced to bring in extra Drop Ships and Jump Ships to counter a Battalion of these Mechs, you can bet I'd be ordering numerous Regiments, because they will run out of Drop Ships and Jump Ships long before I run out of Mechs.

[RedDragon]

PaintedWolf, on 06 March 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

What is the BV of a Star Lord Class Jump Ship?

2.0 is not listed on Sarna, but let me say, on the Master Unit List, the Aquilla Transport Jumpship is listed at 600 BV.

A Dire Wolf has roughly 2,500. So according to your reasoning I can bring in 4 Jump Ships for 1 Assault Mech.

Note according to BV 1.0, which does not often differ significantly from 2.0, an Star Lord Jump Ship has 604 BV. So technically, I can outnumber your Union Drop Ships with my Star Lord Jump Ships almost 6-1 if we are going to follow this type of reasoning.

What exactly is your point? It's called Battle Value because it measures the value a fighting unit has. Jump Ships only have a few small weapons, therefore their BV is quite low.
And what would you accomplish with so many Jump Ships?

The reasoning is: You field a force with a large BV, so your enemy can do the same. He can use a drop ship to drop his troops right on top of your force because your BV is so ridiculously high that it won't matter if he takes a whole drop ship to deliver his troops. That the drop ship also carries a lot of weapons is just the icing on the cake.

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 06 March 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

What exactly is your point? It's called Battle Value because it measures the value a fighting unit has. Jump Ships only have a few small weapons, therefore their BV is quite low.
And what would you accomplish with so many Jump Ships?

The reasoning is: You field a force with a large BV, so your enemy can do the same. He can use a drop ship to drop his troops right on top of your force because your BV is so ridiculously high that it won't matter if he takes a whole drop ship to deliver his troops. That the drop ship also carries a lot of weapons is just the icing on the cake.

Yes but in terms of Mechs vs Mechs or other ground units, at a certain point of numbers, I can start taking out far more in BV then it takes for my Mechs. BV cannot measure force multiplication effects.

When a Battalion of my Mechs can take out Regiments of lesser machines, its cost has already been paid for, even in the area of BV.

A group of artillery working separately has the same BV as a group working in a team so as to saturate an area, yet their effects on the Battlefield will be completely different.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 March 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[RedDragon]

PaintedWolf, on 06 March 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yes but in terms of Mechs vs Mechs or other ground units, at a certain point of numbers, I can start taking out far more in BV then it takes for my Mechs. BV cannot measure force multiplication effects.

And that is the whole point we try to get through to you. Yes, you can construct a highly specialized build that excels at on single task, but it is ridiculously expensive and not of much use in a real campaign setting.

So if your task was to create a munchkin-build for a single purpose without any context, yes, your mech may be a good choice.

If you wanted to build a good mech for campaigning and using it in a "real" context, then no, you didn't achieve this goal.

War (and in that regard BT) doesn't work in the way of "You have to face me on my terms!". If you field a unit that is good against mechs, a wise enemy will confront you with conventional units and unorthodox tactics. Period.

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 06 March 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

And that is the whole point we try to get through to you. Yes, you can construct a highly specialized build that excels at on single task, but it is ridiculously expensive and not of much use in a real campaign setting.

This isn't a specialized unit. The Lancea can function as Artillery and as a Battle Mech, it can fight against Mechs, Infantry, Vehicles, Battle Armor and even Air units just as well as any other Assault Mech. I

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 March 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[RedDragon]

PaintedWolf, on 06 March 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

This isn't a specialized unit. The Lancea can focus as Artillery or as a Battle Mech, it can fight against Mechs, Infantry, Vehicles, Battle Armor and even Air units just as well as any other Assault Mech.

It's specialized in regard to its purpose. The only real purpose I could imagine is storming a fortified position. It's too slow to hunt other mechs, it's too slow to defend larger areas, it doesn't have enough fire power to be of any worth in close combat against general purpose mechs of the same value. On top of that it is ridiculously expensive both in C-Bills and in BV.
So the only thing you could really accomplish with it is storming a target or combating slow enemies from afar that are willing to stand still or even close up to your mechs. And that you can achieve with a force of much less BV and money.

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 06 March 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

It's specialized in regard to its purpose. The only real purpose I could imagine is storming a fortified position. It's too slow to hunt other mechs, it's too slow to defend larger areas, it doesn't have enough fire power to be of any worth in close combat against general purpose mechs of the same value. On top of that it is ridiculously expensive both in C-Bills and in BV.
So the only thing you could really accomplish with it is storming a target or combating slow enemies from afar that are willing to stand still or even close up to your mechs. And that you can achieve with a force of much less BV and money.

According to that logic all Assault Mechs are specialized units. The average speed for an Assault Mech is 3/5. The Lancea goes 3/4, and can go 3/5 with TSM activated. It can activate TSM with energy weapons alone at the perfect 9 point heat level. It can activate it while firing its Arrow 4s and a combination of energy weapons. It really is not much slower then other Assault Mechs.

If you wish to object to this point, I want you tell me something a group of Atlas's can do, or Daishis can do that the Lancea cannot.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 March 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[RedDragon]

PaintedWolf, on 06 March 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

According to that logic all Assault Mechs are specialized units. The average speed for an Assault Mech is 3/5. The Lancea goes 3/4, and can go 3/5 with TSM activated. It can activate TSM with energy weapons alone at the perfect 9 point heat level. It can activate it while firing its Arrow 4s and a combination of energy weapons. It really is not much slower then other Assault Mechs.

Yes, that's why you don't build assault mechs that cost as much BV and money as a whole lance of normal mechs. If I want artillery support, I take a lance of http://www.sarna.net...Huitzilopochtli for example for the BV one of your mechs has. That's 8 Arrow IVs. For the price of a second of your mechs I get 2 or 3 other assault mechs who can do the job of mech combat.
So for a lance of your mechs I can field double the artillery power and 6 or more mechs that are better suited to most tasks.

Just ask yourself: Why should any commander take a mech that is both artillery and anti mech but excels at none of this tasks, if he could instead get better artillery and/or anti mech capabilities for a much smaller price? Not to speak of the risks you face with every high-tech unit: Losing one is a cost you can't afford. One lucky critical hit and there go 26 mllion C-Bills and 3500 BV. One lucky hit to your drop ship and you'll lose a force that should fill two ships normally for its cost.

It just doesn't make sense to field such a unit, we told you numerous times now. But why argue with you when it's quite obvious that the only feedback you'd accept is "Wow, that is a great design, kudos to you!". Either be open to discussion and feedback or don't post here, I'd guess. We can not do more for you than show you the weaknesses in your design, and we did this many times now.

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 06 March 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Yes, that's why you don't build assault mechs that cost as much BV and money as a whole lance of normal mechs. If I want artillery support, I take a lance of http://www.sarna.net...Huitzilopochtli for example for the BV one of your mechs has. That's 8 Arrow IVs. For the price of a second of your mechs I get 2 or 3 other assault mechs who can do the job of mech combat.
So for a lance of your mechs I can field double the artillery power and 6 or more mechs that are better suited to most tasks.

Just ask yourself: Why should any commander take a mech that is both artillery and anti mech but excels at none of this tasks, if he could instead get better artillery and/or anti mech capabilities for a much smaller price? Not to speak of the risks you face with every high-tech unit: Losing one is a cost you can't afford. One lucky critical hit and there go 26 mllion C-Bills and 3500 BV. One lucky hit to your drop ship and you'll lose a force that should fill two ships normally for its cost.

It just doesn't make sense to field such a unit, we told you numerous times now. But why argue with you when it's quite obvious that the only feedback you'd accept is "Wow, that is a great design, kudos to you!". Either be open to discussion and feedback or don't post here, I'd guess. We can not do more for you than show you the weaknesses in your design, and we did this many times now.

I would urge you to learn about the Iceni Rebellion, where 10,000, well armored, well armed Roman soldiers defeated 100-200 thousand Celts losing only 400 men.



The Celts lost 80,000.

Yes a Legionnaire might be a lot slower and more expensive, and a Legion more still then tribal people with random weapons, but when they can take out 10-20 times their numbers they pay for themselves easy. That is how force multiplication works and my units use this.

More then anything it was the strength of the Legion, which could take on several times its number, that was the true basis for the power of Rome.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 March 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Have you posted this on the CBT forums and seen the feedback from the TT players there?

Its not a bad unit for mixed tech, but its slow and you're not capitalizing on the homing munitions of the arrow 4 by not having a TAG.

[LoPanShui]

As for the Mad Cat Mk IV? Two reasons:

A) It exists because it's the trademark Mech of battletech. It has four generations because it's pandering to fanboys.
B ) It's an extremely good, well rounded 100 ton assault 'mech that is more expensive than the Lancea, but, again, you're entering into your own fallacy, dude.

NO ONE FIELDS ENTIRE BATTALIONS OF MAD CAT Mk IVs.

NO ONE.

It's not that your 'mech is too expensive, it's that it's too expensive to field in the mass numbers that you're talking about fielding in order to make it effective. A single ludicrously expensive BattleMech in a company is one thing, but an entire battalion of them is where people are having the problem with this. You're putting all your eggs in one basket, and it means if that unit gets wiped out, which it can be by a faster, more agile conventional force, then you're down a considerable amount of C-Bills. If you're fielding multiples of these units then you're stuck with a limited number of forces compared to an enemy who can spend those C-Bills they have for a much larger force compared to yours.

They can field some 6/9 Mediums, or 9/13 Lights to flank around the sides or, in a real world scenario, simply avoid ever meeting your force on the field of battle.

So, in a real world campaign scenario you've created a force than can wipe out anything it points all of its guns at, but that no one is stupid enough to stand still long enough to get shot at for. All Assault forces -always- have this problem where a lack of speed and mobility results in an ineffective force.

If we're talking a Tabletop scenario, then we're in even weirder territory. You don't believe in the C-Bill argument, so there's infinite C-Bills floating around. You don't believe in BV, so there's infinite BV floating around. By that logic I could just not buy any 'Mechs at all and drop three or four Overlords directly on top of you filled with a hundred thousand or so SRM Infantry and just call it a day.

It's a good 'Mech, but it's just not viable fielded in the numbers you're suggesting from a logistical or tactical point of view.

Edited by LoPanShui, 06 March 2014 - 06:17 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

LoPanShui, on 06 March 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

So, in a real world campaign scenario you've created a force than can wipe out anything it points all of its guns at, but that no one is stupid enough to stand still long enough to get shot at for. All Assault forces -always- have this problem where a lack of speed and mobility results in an ineffective force.

Well afaik the Lancea - should lay siege so finding the target isn't the problem... for example lay siege on a Brian Castel...
what makes things interesting - is logistics.

For example most Castle Brians have Long Toms (more range as an arrow - with Copperheat (as precise)

The other thing is there are a couple of high mobile artillery plattforms - and shoot and scoot works in BT as well as in real live.
All I need is a single Purifer with tag - and some Chaparral may be a good choice for counter artillery. Or much better Regulator Arrow

They are more much more mobile - when you fire at there position its most likely that they are on a other map sheet while the lance is still crawling - to climb even a hill (not to mention a river) An he has to move through the river - because 90t was all a "City Tech" Bridge could take.

And still the most grave mistake:
TSM and ammunition is a double edged sword....
first you think hey no problem lets heat up and move faster.... but suddenly you see the grin on your enemys face...and you ask what?
And suddenly your Mechs get a shot from a Inferno - plus multiple Plasma rounds....and instead of running faster - your Mech isn't able to move at all....not to mention the ammunition that cooks of (and you have inferno rounds loaded in your Mech - this and TSM ... that isn't a good idea - to be polite)

so lets look at the fact:
Purifer ba
Harasser or Plainsman hover tank or Cavalry VTOL
Regulator or Chapparal Fast Response Artillery Tanks
Mechs or Hovercrafts with Plasma Rifles

for maintenance or to load them on a drop ship i have indeed bigger costs - but at least i will not transport them to the planet where your lanceas are waiting- you come on my planet (and i don't have problems to find volunteer Techs and Mechanics that work for nothing - but food, water and a place to sleep - just to drive you off my planet)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 March 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

LoPanShui, on 06 March 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

As for the Mad Cat Mk IV? Two reasons:

A) It exists because it's the trademark Mech of battletech. It has four generations because it's pandering to fanboys.
B ) It's an extremely good, well rounded 100 ton assault 'mech that is more expensive than the Lancea, but, again, you're entering into your own fallacy, dude.

75 tons. http://www.sarna.net...i/Mad_Cat_Mk_IV

LoPanShui, on 06 March 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

You don't believe in BV, so there's infinite BV floating around. By that logic I could just not buy any 'Mechs at all and drop three or four Overlords directly on top of you filled with a hundred thousand or so SRM Infantry and just call it a day.

You do realize Battle Value is not actually a form of currency right? It is a completely abstract concept meant to measure "fairness". So yes, there literally is an infinite amount of BV floating around.

Karl Streiger, on 06 March 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

All I need is a single Purifer with tag -

You really want to use Battle Armor against Massed Artillery? You do realize that armor has 1 mp right?

Karl Streiger, on 06 March 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

And still the most grave mistake:
TSM and ammunition is a double edged sword....
first you think hey no problem lets heat up and move faster.... but suddenly you see the grin on your enemys face...and you ask what?
And suddenly your Mechs get a shot from a Inferno - plus multiple Plasma rounds....and instead of running faster - your Mech isn't able to move at all....not to mention the ammunition that cooks of (and you have inferno rounds loaded in your Mech - this and TSM ... that isn't a good idea - to be polite)

Well that's an interesting story, but where does it say Mechs with TSM are more prone to shutdown or ammo explosion? Where does it say if the Mech goes over 9 heat, TSM benefits are de-activated?

In fact, there is nothing in the rule books that say TSM Mechs are more prone to heat effects, or heat inducing weapons at all.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 07 March 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[LoPanShui]

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

75 tons. http://www.sarna.net...i/Mad_Cat_Mk_IV

You do realize Battle Value is not actually a form of currency right? It is a completely abstract concept meant to measure "fairness". So yes, there literally is an infinite amount of BV floating around.

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Well that's an interesting story, but where does it say Mechs with TSM are more prone to shutdown or ammo explosion? Where does it say if the Mech goes over 9 heat, TSM benefits are de-activated?

In fact, there is nothing in the rule books that say TSM Mechs are more prone to heat effects, or heat inducing weapons at all.

He's saying that if you're hovering at 9 heat constantly that it only takes 5 more heat to force a shutdown roll or 10 more heat to force an ammo explosion roll, compared to 14 or 19 more on a heat neutral 'Mech. It's not that you're more susceptible to heat inducing weapons, its that you're already running hot so they're a lot more dangerous. TSM, like MASC, is a double edged sword. How did you miss this in what he was saying?

[PaintedWolf]

LoPanShui, on 07 March 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

-clams I missed the point with stick graphics-

What was your point then? You are saying it would be impossible to make my Mechs because of BV, as if it is a limited resource that actually effects production. BV is not such a resource and even your c-bill argument is questionable as we don't know the relationship of c-bills to production at all.

Clans for example don't even deal in c-bills.

LoPanShui, on 07 March 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

He's saying that if you're hovering at 9 heat constantly that it only takes 5 more heat to force a shutdown roll or 10 more heat to force an ammo explosion roll,

So only TSM Mechs run at 9+ heat during combat? BTW, what are the actually numbers for these rolls, are we talking 4+ with 2d6? That has a mere 8% chance of happening.

Also the Plasma Rifle deals 1-6 points of heat to the enemy: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Plasma_Rifle

Yet costs ten heat to fire. So, the enemy is causing more heat to himself then he is you. Also the Mellee bonuses for TSM are still active.

In any case, how do you even plan on making me generate this heat? They have capped how much heat a Mech can have from external sources to 9.

You are acting like TSM Mechs are somehow more susceptible to heat inducing attacks which is simply not true. The most you can say is they are more likely to be at 9 over-heat then other Mechs, but most Mechs tend to generate that kind of heat during a battle anyways.

LoPanShui, on 07 March 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

compared to 14 or 19 more on a heat neutral 'Mech. It's not that you're more susceptible to heat inducing weapons, its that you're already running hot so they're a lot more dangerous. TSM, like MASC, is a double edged sword. How did you miss this in what he was saying?

So basically, a Plasma Rifle is used one time at long range. Say it does not miss, and hits the target. Say the target is at nine heat. Say this means we need a shut down roll of 4+ to succeed. Then, if they fail, and we are talking the high end of a 1d6 roll here (5+), THEN you may have shut down one Mech in the Battalion with a Plasma attack, meanwhile you take return fire from ER PPCs and an ER Large Laser with a TC.

Basically you are suggesting a suicide run, which even if successful, will have very limited effect and will only work once.

If you are talking inferno's, you are entering close range and those guns are going to cut your units to pieces.

[CarnageINC]

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

In any case, how do you even plan on making me generate this heat? They have capped how much heat a Mech can have from external sources to 9.

You are acting like TSM Mechs are somehow more susceptible to heat inducing attacks which is simply not true. The most you can say is they are more likely to be at 9 over-heat then other Mechs, but most Mechs tend to generate that kind of heat during a battle anyways.

Okay PaintedWolf (*CarnageINC gets out his reading glasses).

Your lack of understanding the complete set of BT rules and your 'mastery' of mech building is really starting to show here. The cap for mechs gaining heat from external sources is 15 points, not 9. Now you have to factor in the heat your making for you mech by movements and weapons. Then you add those 2 factors together (external and internal) to get your mechs final heat points.

*(Total Warfare pg. 159 'Outside Heat Sources') Quoted from the book. "However, such outside heat sources can only inflict a total of 15 heat points in a turn, and so 3 points are wasted. After the controlling player determines the heat for ’Mech A’s movement and weapons fire, he adds the two numbers together."

Now on to what everyone is saying about TSM. What they are getting at is if you want to capitalize on your TSM that you have to run 9+ heat. Since your mechs may be running at a higher heat they are now at greater risk for being forced to shut down do to external heat sources. As you may know that shutdown rolls start at 14. And if you do shutdown you fall, I'll get to that in a bit. TSM mechs are not any more vunerable to other mechs.

Okay lets get down to business.

With Hardened Armor you are penalized -1 MP when running. Your mech runs at 4 MP normally since it has Hardened Armor. At 5 on the Heat Scale your now down to 3 MP. At Heat Scale 9 your back to 4 MP. At Heat Scale 10 your again back down to 3 MP. In addition to your -1 MP, you are given +1 piloting skill roll penalty. Getting 20+ point of damage you now have to roll a +2 skill roll just to stay up. If any of your mechs fall, they will have a +1 piloting skill role to standing up. Plus if you run 3 hexes you now have to roll a +2 roll to avoid falling over.

You have equipped your mech with TSM so you essentially only gain +1 MP if your heat points are ONLY at 9. In addition to the +1 movement, your physical attacks are doubled. But you can hardly move, you get 4 MP at best. So your lack of mobility made phyiscal attacks very difficult. So why ever did you equip TSM to your mech? What benefit are you gaining with it that can possibly justify its need? To have more MP? WOW....3 MP if your running hot....you go guy . You couldn't even react to getting flanked or encircled by quicker mechs, the only thing you can react to is Motorized/Jump Infantry which move just as fast as you! You basically would have to go into 'circle the wagons' defense and the enemy would just ****** off and leave you behind.

Now your Arrow IV launchers. Mechs making on map Arrow IV attacks can designate their own targets with TAG (Max range of 18 hexes). But they can make no other attacks other than launching that turn when self TAGing. However you can have multiple launches on a single TAG. Now how many TAG attack declarations do you make? You still have to make all your other attack declarions too before rolls. Now if you miss your TAG all indirect firing your Arrows results in a miss and it self destructs. So now you can saturate a single target with missiles that do 20 points of damage if they hit. Okay, now if your being swarmed what do you do now? Your targeting computer is really the only good thing you have going for you now. Lets assume your running cold. You avoid being penalized +1 for secondary targets in your front firing arc and +2 is now only +1 in your side arcs due to your targeting computer. But keep in mind any heat above 8 is a +1 to hit and +2 at 13 heat points if you choose to run hot.

If you don't think that all these penalties add up in the long run your wrong and obviously don't have the playing experence that you claim. Sure you can dish out damage, no one is saying that you can't. But you are dreaming thinking you 'solved' all the tactical problems and your mechs are imperivious.

You can't manauver and you can't spread out, you litteraly only have 48 mechs in a battalion. You can't occupy any significant territory because you can't intercept anything. You can't gain the initative in anything because of your speed, the enemy will just move to a place of their chosing if you chase. Your mech unit is only good at laying seige to something the enemy wants to hold on to on open ground or if your mechs are defending a limited area.

In the city or any terrian your in trouble. You just can't effectively move through rubble and forests and climbing hills, your just a turret. Because of your lack of speed you have to wait till the enemy shows himself to you at a time and place of his chosing. You can't shoot what you can't see. Sure you can lob Arrows all over the place at +4 with in 17 hexes and a scatter chart to deal with. Any longer and you have to bump that up to +7 and count in flight time. But your burning up ammo doing that spray and pray stuff.

Many of your counter arguments are based off you dismissing BV or cbill values like they didn't count for anything. Since they don't mean anything to you, how can you argue against someone spending and equal amount of BV or cbills. Just add in the cost of your jumpship, dropships and support personel to your overall BV/Cbill cost and let your opponent match your stuff based off of that. If they can get more Dropships and mechs and all the other goodies they want and match your BV/Cbills you should have no problem with that. It is in all essence a fair and equal fight.

You ASSUME your battalion can take on a regiment of mechs. You ASSUME that someone will fight you on your terms only. You ASSUME your can just focus fire on every target. You ASSUME is a 'suicide run' to attack your forces. Your all assumptions, theories and wishful thinking. Your mech is of very limited use and can be viewed as a 'one shot wonder'.

[Strum Wealh]

On the subject of Hardened Armor vs TSM vs mobility...

• "Units using Hardened Armor suffer noticeable mobility impairment that affects piloting and speed. To reflect this, ’Mech units that carry Hardened Armor suffer a +1 Piloting Skill target modifier and -1 Running MP." - TacOps, pg. 281
  
• "If a BattleMech is equipped with triple-strength myomer, for each turn that it ends with a heat level of 9 or higher, the following effects take place the next turn; apply other modifiers that decrease movement, such as heat and damage, normally."; "Increase the ’Mech’s Walking MP by 2 and recalculate its Running MP; multiply the new Walking MP by 1.5, rounding up." - TotWar, pg. 143
  
• "At 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25 heat points, subtract the number indicated from the ’Mech’s Walking MP. For example, at anywhere from 5 to 9 heat points, subtract 1 from the ’Mech’s Walking MP. Remember that Running MP is 1.5 times the current Walking MP; if the Walking MP is reduced, the player must also recalculate his ’Mech’s Running MP, rounding fractions up." - TotWar, pg. 158

So, a 'Mech that would normally be a 3/5 unit would become a 3/4 unit when using Hardened Armor, then would become a 2/3 unit when 5 ≤ (heat level) < 9 (3-1 = 2, 2*1.5 = 3), then would become a 4/6 unit when TSM activates (at (heat level) = 9), then becomes a 2/3 unit again when 10 ≤ (heat level) < 15 (since reaching ((heat level) = 10) means subtracting 2 from the Walking MP and subsequently recalculating the Running MP; 4-2 = 2, 2*1.5 = 3).

Also:

• "At 8, 13, 17 and 24 heat points, add the number indicated to the ’Mech’s base to-hit number for weapon attacks. For example, at 8 heat points, add 1 to all base to-hit numbers for as long as the heat remains at or above 8." - TotWar, pg. 160
  
• "To make an attack using the Targeting Computer, follow all standard rules for weapons of that type, but modify the to-hit number for any attacks using the unit’s weapon by -1." - TotWar, pg. 143
  
• "Players may make aimed shots against units that are shut down or whose warrior is unconscious, using any weapons other than missile launchers and LB-X autocannon firing cluster munitions.", "A warrior can use a Targeting Computer to make an aimed shot against an active target." - TotWar, pg. 110
  
• "Pulse and rapid-fire weapons may not use a Targeting Computer to make an aimed shot, unless a rapid-fire weapon is firing a single shot." - TotWar, pg. 143

As such, the universal benefit of the Targeting Computer is negated once the activation point for TSM is reached (as the TC's (-1) to-hit bonus is matched by the heat level's (+1) to-hit penalty). Moreover, the Pulse Lasers cannot make use of the secondary benefit of the Targeting Computer (the ability to make Aimed Shots against an active target) at all (though, they can still benefit from the general -1 to-hit bonus... when (heat level) ≤ 8) & the SRM launcher cannot make use of the Targeting Computer or make Aimed shots at all.

On the other hand, all of the weapons can be used to make Called Shots (TacOps, pg. 78).

While the use of non-homing Arrow IV rounds (TacOps, pg. 354) does free the Lancea from the need for TAG-equipped spotters, it does limit it to making "standard" artillery attacks (TacOps, pgs 179-186) with all of the limitations entailed thereby (including, most notably, the requirements & limitations for making direct-fire artillery attacks on targets at ranges of 6 to 17 hexes).

• "Any unit more than seventeen hexes away from the target is considered indirect for purposes of artillery fire, even if the artillery unit is on the same mapsheet as the target and has a clear line of sight to the target hex."
  
• "If the attacker is seventeen hexes or closer to the target, and LOS exists to the target, use the Direct-Fire Artillery rules."
  
• "An artillery unit can fire indirectly at a target less than seventeen hexes away if there is no LOS."
  
• "When making a direct-fire artillery attack, if the target is within six hexes of the attacking unit, the attack cannot be made (this minimum range is ignored when making Pointblank Attacks)."
  
• "Only hidden onboard artillery units that have not previously fired or moved in a scenario can make pointblank artillery attacks."

Short of always being at ((heat level) > 5) or (8 < (heat level) < 10), the Lancea is too slow to perform well in close-quarters combat. And in the latter case, the only weapons that benefit from the presence of the Targeting Computer are the single ER Small Laser, the single ER Large Laser, and the single ER-PPC (as the TC's presence & their status as non-pulse/non-rapid-fire weapons would allow them to make Aimed Shots against mobile targets).
Moreover, the Lancea's lack of Lower Arm Actuators (particularly notable - and puzzling - for the PPC/laser-laden Right Arm) further limits its ability to address nearby and/or fleet-footed opponents.

Further, it should be noted that Hardened Armor, while it will negate the special armor-piercing abilities of certain alternate munitions, does not outright prevent "penetrating critical hits", but it does substantially reduce the frequency of taking damage from such hits; "Penetrating critical hit checks (including “floating” critical hits) against a unit protected by Hardened Armor (such as those caused by rolling a 2 on the Hit Location Table, or during a successful Swarm Attack) suffer a –2 modifier to all rolls on the Determining Critical Hits Table (including Vehicle Critical Hits Tables)." (TacOps, pg. 281 & TotWar, pg. 124).

While a battalion of Lancea (a set of 36 to 48 'Mechs) may be fearsome, it is not significantly moreso than a battallion of Annihilators or Atlases or King Crabs, or a cluster of Daishi (a set of 30 to 75 'Mechs).
Individually, the Lancea would be very much like an Annihilator or the King Crab - it's not something that one wants to be both close to and in front of, but it's so slow & ponderous that the deadly combination of proximity and facing can be avoided with only moderate effort... which then allows a lighter, faster opponent to whittle away at the Lancea's flanks at its leisure (and its rear at a somewhat less leisurely pace, the Lancea flips its Right Arm to bring the large energy weapons to bear... and can succeed in actually making use of them before the Right Torso is blown out from the rear).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 08 March 2014 - 03:25 PM.