115 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

Strum Wealh, on 08 March 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

While a battalion of Lancea (a set of 36 to 48 'Mechs) may be fearsome, it is not significantly moreso than a battallion of Annihilators or Atlases or King Crabs, or a cluster of Daishi (a set of 30 to 75 'Mechs).

Do any of the Mechs mentioned have artillery weapons?

[Egomane]

Strum Wealh, on 08 March 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

So, a 'Mech that would normally be a 3/5 unit would become a 3/4 unit when using Hardened Armor, then would become a 2/3 unit when 5 ≤ (heat level) < 9 (3-1 = 2, 2*1.5 = 3), then would become a 4/6 unit when TSM activates (at (heat level) = 9), then becomes a 2/3 unit again when 10 ≤ (heat level) < 15 (since reaching ((heat level) = 10) means subtracting 2 from the Walking MP and subsequently recalculating the Running MP; 4-2 = 2, 2*1.5 = 3).

Not completly correct!

• At 5 heat the mech with hardened armor would have a movement of 2/2 because he will still have the -1 running MP from the hardened armor.
  
• At 9 heat he would be 4/5 because the TSM kicks in and adds 2 to the base MP and the running MP is recalculated. Then the hardened armor kicks in once more end removes one point from the running MPs.
  
• At 10 heat the mech would again be at 3/4 (-2 from heat, +2 from TSM, -1 running MP from HA)
  
• At 15 heat the mech would again be at 2/2 (-3 from heat, +2 from TSM, -1 running MP from HA)
  
• And so on!

[Karl Streiger]

there are more as enough variants of 100tons that mount arrow.

The mainproblem is that an arrow isn't a good weapon when it comes down to tactical combat. a gauss or ultra 20 may the better choice. with tag on the arrow carrying Mech you may can use them at medium range.

anyhow to work you need spotters even when you want to use pre choosen terrain markers
so the lancea is limted to defense duttys at a garnison and thats a task Long Tom plattforms perform better and cheaper.

All eggs in one basket is in this case too much.
the alternative could be to create two units both more mobile one as pure artillery unit . the other as multi purpose bodyguard (tsm hatchet, lon range weapons anti air lbx )

[PaintedWolf]

Egomane, on 08 March 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Not completly correct!

• At 5 heat the mech with hardened armor would have a movement of 2/2 because he will still have the -1 running MP from the hardened armor.
  
• At 9 heat he would be 4/5 because the TSM kicks in and adds 2 to the base MP and the running MP is recalculated. Then the hardened armor kicks in once more end removes one point from the running MPs.
  
• At 10 heat the mech would again be at 3/4 (-2 from heat, +2 from TSM, -1 running MP from HA)
  
• At 15 heat the mech would again be at 2/2 (-3 from heat, +2 from TSM, -1 running MP from HA)
  
• And so on!

So at 5 heat a Daishi would be 2/4?

[PaintedWolf]

In any case, how many Mechs overall do these factions have and produce every year? It seems to me like they have thousands.

[Egomane]

PaintedWolf, on 09 March 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

So at 5 heat a Daishi would be 2/4?

No, it would be 2/3!

The running speed is always calculated by the base speed. 1.5 times the base speed rounded up, is the running speed of a mech. Heat and TSM modify the base speed and running speed needs to be recalculated accordingly every time. Hardened Armor reduces the running speed by one, after the calculation of the value it would normally have according to the base speed.

Normal speed intervals are:
Base Speed 1 (Running Speed = 1 * 1.5 = 1.5 rounded up to 2)
Base Speed 2 (Running Speed = 2 * 1.5 = 3)
Base Speed 3 (Running Speed = 3 * 1.5 = 4.5 rounded up to 5)
Base Speed 4 (Running Speed = 4 * 1.5 = 6)
Base Speed 5 (Running Speed = 5 * 1.5 = 7.5 rounded up to 8)
Base Speed 6 (Running Speed = 6 * 1.5 = 9)
Base Speed 7 (Running Speed = 7 * 1.5 = 10.5 rounded up to 11)
...

If you add Hardened Armor you get the following numbers (-1 running speed for HA):
Base Speed 1 (Running Speed = 1 * 1.5 - 1 = 1)
Base Speed 2 (Running Speed = 2 * 1.5 - 1 = 2)
Base Speed 3 (Running Speed = 3 * 1.5 - 1 = 4)
Base Speed 4 (Running Speed = 4 * 1.5 - 1 = 5)
Base Speed 5 (Running Speed = 5 * 1.5 - 1 = 7)
Base Speed 6 (Running Speed = 6 * 1.5 - 1 = 8)
Base Speed 7 (Running Speed = 7 * 1.5 - 1 = 10)
...

A Mech with a base speed of 1 and hardened armor would be considered as it has used its running speed the moment it is spending its one movement point.

A Mech with a base speed of 2 and hardened armor would be considered running as soon as it spends its second movement point.

[PaintedWolf]

So dude, hitting a Daishi with a Plasma Rifle makes it just as slow as my Mech with 10-15 heat pretty much.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 09 March 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[Egomane]

PaintedWolf, on 09 March 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

So dude, hitting a Daishi with a Plasma Rifle makes it just as slow as my Mech with TSM off pretty much.

Not neccessarily! The heat phase is almost the last phase of a battletech tabletop turn. If the Dire Wolf didn't use up his complete heatsink capacity he has the chance to get rid of the heat before it affects his movement in the next turn.

If the Dire Wolf, with 20 double heatsinks (40 heat capacity), ran (this generates 2 heat) and fired weapons for 30 heat and got hit by your plasma rifle for 6 additional heat, he will have a total of only 38 heat at the end of the turn and therefore no problem with movement in the next.

If he fired weapons for 40 heat, while running and getting hit by your plasma rifle for 6 heat, he will be at 48 heat, which will cause him to have the negative effects of 8 heat in the next turn, which results in the above posts mentioned reduced and recalculated speed and a +1 modifier to hit a target with weapons fire. He will most likely use less weapons this turn to get rid of the excess heat, probably even taking another hit by a plasma rifle into his calculation.

Edited by Egomane, 09 March 2014 - 03:06 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Egomane, on 09 March 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Not neccessarily! The heat phase is almost the last phase of a battletech tabletop turn. If the Dire Wolf didn't use up his complete heatsink capacity he has the chance to get rid of the heat before it affects his movement in the next turn.

If the Dire Wolf, with 20 double heatsinks (40 heat capacity), ran (this generates 2 heat) and fired weapons for 30 heat and got hit by your plasma rifle for 6 additional heat, he will have a total of only 38 heat at the end of the turn and therefore no problem with movement in the next.

If he fired weapons for 40 heat, while running and getting hit by your plasma rifle for 6 heat, he will be at 48 heat, which will cause him to have the negative effects of 8 heat in the next turn, which results in the above posts mentioned reduced and recalculated speed and a +1 modifier to hit a target with weapons fire. He will most likely use less weapons this turn to get rid of the excess heat, probably even taking another hit by a plasma rifle into his calculation.

Well I could use less weapons the next turn with the Lancea as well then.

[PaintedWolf]

Also this Mech is not a specialist build. Most of my builds are specialist builds and I purposely built this one not to be. My reasoning is that since I will probably win with my Arrow 4s, the rest has to be built around avoiding an exploited weakness. That is why I have it Medium Lasers to deal with Battle Armor, the TSM for if it charges in Battalion vs Battalion group vs other Mechs or Mechs with Reflective Armor, the TC because that is always a great idea, the SRM Infernos for infantry, and the B-Pods in case someone sneaks up on them. Also the TC helps against Aerospace. The Hardened Armor is also good against counter artillery fire, aerospace bombs, and in general fights with others Mechs in large group vs large group engagements. This was meant to be a more generalist build from the beginning so it uses less drop ships.

It was made to be a generalist that could do as well or better then a specialist build. That is what bothers me about people attacking it as a "specialist build" for 2 pages. They are just saying that because in the past 90 percent of my Mech builds are specialists.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 09 March 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

PaintedWolf, on 09 March 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Also this Mech is not a specialist build. Most of my builds are specialist builds and I purposely built this one not to be. My reasoning is that since I will probably win with my Arrow 4s, the rest has to be built around avoiding an exploited weakness. That is why I have it Medium Lasers to deal with Battle Armor, the TSM for if it charges in Battalion vs Battalion group vs other Mechs or Mechs with Reflective Armor, the TC because that is always a great idea, the SRM Infernos for infantry, and the B-Pods in case someone sneaks up on them. Also the TC helps against Aerospace. The Hardened Armor is also good against counter artillery fire, aerospace bombs, and in general fights with others Mechs in large group vs large group engagements. This was meant to be a more generalist build from the beginning so it uses less drop ships.

It was made to be a generalist that could do as well or better then a specialist build. That is what bothers me about people attacking it as a "specialist build" for 2 pages. They are just saying that because in the past 90 percent of my Mech builds are specialists.

Because, despite the claim that "this Mech is not a specialist build", the fact of the matter is that it is a specialist 'Mech: it's an ArtyMech with a bunch of other stuff piled on top of it in an effort/attempt to counter the usual weaknesses of ArtyMechs. Worse, you're trying to take a specialist design and concept and turn it into a proverbial "jack of all trades"; there there are reasons why that particular figure-of-speech (and its various equivalents in other languages and cultures) so often carries negative connotations.

The second sentence in the quoted post sums up the above point nicely: "My reasoning is that since I will probably win with my Arrow 4s, the rest has to be built around avoiding an exploited weakness."
The remainder of that post then simply enumerates how each of the other elements is supposed to cover one of the weaknesses of Arrow-toting ArtyMechs... which tend to include one or more of: low speed & poor maneuverability (as tonnage for heavy arty weapons usually means little left for a large Engine), thin armor (as tonnage for heavy arty weapons usually means little left for a thick hide), low ammo counts (as the weapons and other required systems take up so much tonnage & space that there is often little left for ammunition), few or no significant secondary armaments (as, again, the weapons and other required systems take up so much tonnage & space that there is often little tonnage or space left).

[Karl Streiger]

PaintedWolf, on 09 March 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

TSM for if it charges in Battalion vs Battalion group vs other Mechs or Mechs with Reflective Armor, the TC because that is always a great idea, the SRM Infernos for infantry, and the B-Pods in case someone sneaks up on them.

Is it that hard to understand -you have to hit the heat scale of 9 to - get the better myomer - but only one additional point and there is a chance that your inferno ammunition blows up... if you want to deal with Infantry - consider flammers and AP /Frag warheads for the SRM.

The main reason for Plama Rifles -is not to shut down your mech - a single round may be enough that you have to think about firing that ER-PPC or ER-Large Laser again - reducing your ability to respond fire.

[Blood Rose]

Painted Wolf, you really are not listening to any of the feedback that you have been given. Your Mechs are vunerable and over priced-I proved as such when I linked in my Atlas Demolisher builds-builds that can do the same as yours for less. Your Mechs are far, far too vunerable to hits from heat causing weapons, and if you where in a forest I would merely set it on fire and let you cook. Your Arrow IV is not good enough to counter the weaknesses of your design and the C-Bill price is extortionate. We do know how C-Bills affect Mech production-they are reflected in the costing of the Mech. Your build is so vastly expensive that it can be swarmed by ASSAULT MECHS! Bloody hell, if that tells you nothing then you are a poor designer. Please listen to the feedback and try to understand that your Mechs are just massive, slow targets that will be picked off by your opponents. You wont be able to focus fire fast enough to prevent being overrun because your opponent will have brought MASSES of units to hit you with. As a support Mech in a company, a one off unit the Lancea is great. But in those numbers? Its a vast pile of scrap.

[PaintedWolf]

CarnageINC, on 08 March 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

If[/u] you don't think that all these penalties add up in the long run your wrong and obviously don't have the playing experence that you claim. Sure you can dish out damage, no one is saying that you can't. But you are dreaming thinking you 'solved' all the tactical problems and your mechs are imperivious.

You can't manauver and you can't spread out, you litteraly only have 48 mechs in a battalion. You can't occupy any significant territory because you can't intercept anything. You can't gain the initative in anything because of your speed, the enemy will just move to a place of their chosing if you chase.

If.

Quote

“‘If you do not submit at once,’ he threatened them, ‘I will invade your country. And if I invade, I will pillage and burn everything you hold dear. If I march into Laconia, I will level your great city to the ground.’

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 March 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

If.

Not everything or everyone is as invincible as they seem.

http://en.m.wikipedi...ttle_of_Leuctra

[SMDMadCow]

http://en.m.wikipedi...attle_of_Tegyra
Cute, but you are the one that brought up Sparta as an analouge to your mech.
Have another.

[PaintedWolf]

SMDMadCow, on 10 March 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

http://en.m.wikipedi...attle_of_Tegyra
Cute, but you are the one that brought up Sparta as an analouge to your mech.
Have another.

You do realize that your line of reasoning involves sending in extra Drop Ships right?

This has been rationalized on the basis that they have about as much "Battle Value" as my Mechs, so you can bring in Drop Ships in equal numbers to my Mechs. When I noted that according to your reasoning, I can swarm your Drop Ships with Jump Ships, because they have relatively low Battle Values (600-900 points) that this doesn't matter- because BV "only measures ground combat" or some other nonsense.

So my Mech is too expensive to be practical, but throwing out extra Drop Ships and Jump Ships is being presented as cost effective.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 March 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

You do realize that your line of reasoning involves sending in extra Drop Ships right?

This has been rationalized on the basis that they have about as much &quot;Battle Value&quot; as my Mechs, so you can bring in Drop Ships in equal numbers to my Mechs. When I noted that according to your reasoning, I can swarm your Drop Ships with Jump Ships, because they have relatively low Battle Values (600-900 points) that this doesn't matter- because BV &quot;only measures ground combat&quot; or some other nonsense.

So my Mech is too expensive to be practical, but throwing out extra Drop Ships and Jump Ships is being presented as cost effective.

You are confusing me for another poster. I never made any of those claims.

[PaintedWolf]

SMDMadCow, on 10 March 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

You are confusing me for another poster. I never made any of those claims.

Yet if you are talking about outnumbering my Mechs 3 or 4 to one, because of c-bill cost alone, you have to account for how you will transport them. If I bring a Battalion, I will need 2-3 Unions or 1 Overlord. You by contrast will need 6-12 Unions (which means you will have to bring in more Jumps Ships) or 3-4 Overlords.

Huge numbers of cheap units sounds good on paper, but when you take into account transport and logistics this seeming advantage can become a major liability.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 March 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Yet if you are talking about outnumbering my Mechs 3 or 4 to one, because of c-bill cost alone, you have to account for how you will transport them. If I bring a Battalion, I will need 2-3 Unions or 1 Overlord. You by contrast will need 6-12 Unions (which means you will have to bring in more Jumps Ships) or 3-4 Overlords.

Huge numbers of cheap units sounds good on paper, but when you take into account transport and logistics this seeming advantage can become a major liability.

Except Im not and have never made a claim like that. You are again quoting and confusing me for another poster.