79 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm more sporting an go around 50-60KpH Phoenix

[Khobai]

Quote

There is no real advantage to the "Brawler weapons" at the moment.

For some reason jumpjets are being targeted as the main problem and not the fact mechs can still do 30 damage to one location from 500m-600m away. If they had just nerfed pinpoint weapons, it wouldve not only fixed poptarts, but also made brawling more viable.

[Joseph Mallan]

I Agree With Khobai that convergence here is making the TT advanced targeting computer look like a 1970s RNG program. I am not as upset by 30 point Alphas as many of you are, and we should all know why by now.

[N E R E V A R]

Undo the calamity that is your mammaries, the game should be back to normal now cuz the tournament is over.

[Reptilizer]

Ok, point by point.

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

What if I tell you that at 50m range LBX and SRMs also do pinpoint damage? What if I tell you that other brawler weapons (AC-20, MPLs, etc.) always do pinpoint damage? And what if I tell you that sustained DPS on LBX/SRM builds is about three times as much compared to current AC5-PPC meta combo?

Then i telly ou that either we play different games or you are much more skilled in using those weapons than i am.
At 50m my SRMs with artemis do still spread damage except perhaps on an Awesome CT.
Same goes to a lesser extent for the LBX.
To hit only one component you really have to facehug.

(Pulse)Lasers do pinpoint only on slow targets. Anything moving/twisting tends to spread damage.

AC20 is fine. AC20 is also fine on 600m though... I have a Jagerbomb and it is still easy-mode Glass-cannon on medium ranges.

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

ERPPCs are too hot for anything more than 1 shot in 10 seconds in a brawl, and PPCs are 0 damage within 90m. 'Meta' in a brawl is down to either 1 Gauss or 2 AC5s or 2 jamming UAC5s, while a brawler mech can have 2-4 SRM6 packs, 3LBXs, 3AC10s, whatever really, with 2-4 times more DPS.

As long as your brawler is doing at least 70kph and knows what he is doing, 'meta' stands no chance up close.

"Too hot" for multiple shots in a brawl is crap. There is flush and there is override. Damage to internals is something you worry about when your opponent is dead.
And PPC is doing 0 damage only at 0 range. So at 50m it is high heat for mediocre return, but far from doing 0 damage unless one of the last patches changed the weapons behaviour without me noticing...
AC2/5/UAC5 even AC10 are not affected at all and are brilliant brawling weapons.

Pinpoint damage cores mechs and destroys components. You got a massive advantage at range with those and neglegible disadvantages in a brawl.
I run a lot of brawlers cause i like the feel.
I do much better (even in brawls) with my long range pinpoint builds.
Might be that it is only me and i just lack the skill with brawling weapons.
I doubt that though.

[KharnZor]

Dyson Ring, on 04 March 2014 - 03:13 AM, said:

I think you REALLY need to get your facts straight, the creator of the petition is "Chris Ulrich" (whom I am assuming is a player butthurt about the direction the game is going in), not Jordan Weisman or L. Ross Babcock III (who are the ACTUAL creators of BattleTech).

Edit: See, countered

Facts are tasty.

[PhoenixFire55]

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Then i telly ou that either we play different games or you are much more skilled in using those weapons than i am.
At 50m my SRMs with artemis do still spread damage except perhaps on an Awesome CT.
Same goes to a lesser extent for the LBX.
To hit only one component you really have to facehug.

Look carefully next time when you are in game exactly how far 50m is and you'll understand. I am not saying I am able to focus EVERY SRM/LBX pack I shoot into single component, but it is doable. But again, I am not able to focus all my PPC/AC/Gauss shots into same component all the time either. Also, take note that we are comparing same chassis, not taking into account smth like a Shadowhawk, Griffin, etc. Its 'meta' Cataphract vs 'brawler' Cataphract, 'meta' Victor vs 'brawler' Victor, 'meta' HGL vs 'brawler' HGL etc. All these are fat enough I'm sure you can CT-only them with SRMs/LBXs.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

(Pulse)Lasers do pinpoint only on slow targets. Anything moving/twisting tends to spread damage.

Same I've said just above, consider nothing smaller then a Phract.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

"Too hot" for multiple shots in a brawl is crap. There is flush and there is override.

There is only one flush and I'll only be happy if my opponents will spam override. Will only blow em up sooner.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Damage to internals is something you worry about when your opponent is dead.

Laughable.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

And PPC is doing 0 damage only at 0 range. So at 50m it is high heat for mediocre return, but far from doing 0 damage unless one of the last patches changed the weapons behaviour without me noticing...

It did. It is 0.0 points of damage inside 90m.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

AC2/5/UAC5 even AC10 are not affected at all and are brilliant brawling weapons.

Yes, but 'meta' max AC DPS is done with x2 AC5s, single Gauss is less, UAC5s are more potentially, but same as AC5s on average. There are no AC10s on 'meta' jumpsnipers. Brawlers can have x3 AC10s/LBXs, x2 AC5s/UAC5s with 2-4 SRM packs onboard as well or a whole bunch of lasers.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Pinpoint damage cores mechs and destroys components. You got a massive advantage at range with those and neglegible disadvantages in a brawl.

When I see smth claiming pinpoint (ACs/PPCs/Gauss) destroys components I really doubt a person saying this has any idea. What components? You blow arms off mechs with your pinpoint? Because if not all components you blow is in torsoes, and LBXs and MGs will shred those components ten times faster than any PPC. And apparently if you think the disadvantages of 'meta' in a brawl and neglegible you've never seen a good brawler.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

I do much better (even in brawls) with my long range pinpoint builds.
Might be that it is only me and i just lack the skill with brawling weapons.
I doubt that though.

Reason you do better in long-range builds are quite simple. Ask yourself, how many of your 11 teammates are running 'long-range' and how many run 'brawlers'? I'd say most will be in long-range, thus they'll plan their strategy accordingly, i.e. they will sit somewhere and snipe. So, lets say you are a brawler, thus when you go and brawl, you are not only the most dangerous target to enemy snipers but also the closest one, which makes you an immidiate focus fire priority. And it is really easy to focus you while same time its hard to focus anyone else on your team, same way its hard for your teammates to focus a mech you shoot etc.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 04 March 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Reptilizer]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

There is only one flush and I'll only be happy if my opponents will spam override. Will only blow em up sooner.
Laughable.

Uh, why? Self destruct by overheat that common in your games? You can nearly always squeeze out one alpha more with override. I tend not to die from it at least. 30 additional points of damage on already damaged locations kills people. They die, i live with yellow/orange internals.
So what is your point there?

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

It did. It is 0.0 points of damage inside 90m.

Interesting, did not notice. Maybe i do not face-hug enough.

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

When I see smth claiming pinpoint (ACs/PPCs/Gauss) destroys components I really doubt a person saying this has any idea. What components? You blow arms off mechs with your pinpoint? Because if not all components you blow is in torsoes, and LBXs and MGs will shred those components ten times faster than any PPC. And apparently if you think the disadvantages of 'meta' in a brawl and neglegible you've never seen a good brawler.

Me bad, english is not my first language. What i mean is locations. You see the wounded part and you put another round in. No one goes for arms. You go for side torso or CT (or head if you are a crackshot). And you just blow that part out without peeling off armor off the others.
How much armor/internal does your heavy have on RT? Enough to cope with 3x 30 points pinpoint?
Better not carry a XL also.


What i also not am able to follow really is your arguments concerning dps.
While a nice stat it seldom seems relevant at all to me.
What is interesting maybe is DPS on a single location. DPS on two locations is already actually halved damage.
It is also utterly irrelevant how much damage you can put out over 30 seconds because a brawling engagement is finished in 15. And this 15 seconds are always enough for 3 alphas of your pinpoint build. AFTER this you are hot as hell and your internals might be damaged. But your enemy is dead.
E.g. i am not afraid of any brawler in my Glass-cannon Jagerbomb because after 5 seconds i have put 80 damage in a single location. Kill me first with any brawler build...


*edit: changed "component" to "location".

Edited by Reptilizer, 04 March 2014 - 06:11 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

maybe the patch today will help.

[PhoenixFire55]

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Uh, why? Self destruct by overheat that common in your games? You can nearly always squeeze out one alpha more with override. I tend not to die from it at least. 30 additional points of damage on already damaged locations kills people. They die, i live with yellow/orange internals.
So what is your point there?

And if that final override alpha misses or hits different location? You are pretty much screwed then, and it is hard to aim when your target is in your face real close. Also, you assume that you still have armor, while you already have none, and probably missing half of your weapons.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Me bad, english is not my first language. What i mean is locations. You see the wounded part and you put another round in. No one goes for arms. You go for side torso or CT (or head if you are a crackshot). And you just blow that part out without peeling off armor off the others.
How much armor/internal does your heavy have on RT? Enough to cope with 3x 30 points pinpoint?

Yeah, just enough to stop three 30-point alphas. You aren't gonna be hitting it every time tho.

Reptilizer, on 04 March 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

What i also not am able to follow really is your arguments concerning dps.
While a nice stat it seldom seems relevant at all to me.
What is interesting maybe is DPS on a single location. DPS on two locations is already actually halved damage.
It is also utterly irrelevant how much damage you can put out over 30 seconds because a brawling engagement is finished in 15. And this 15 seconds are always enough for 3 alphas of your pinpoint build. AFTER this you are hot as hell and your internals might be damaged. But your enemy is dead.
E.g. i am not afraid of any brawler in my Glass-cannon Jagerbomb because after 5 seconds i have put 80 damage in a single location. Kill me first with any brawler build...

Well, yes, but irrelevant if you are close, as I said, you can focus SRMs/LBX just the same. If you do its DPS vs DPS, and brawler has higher one.

[Ngamok]

Khobai, on 04 March 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

Absolutely but mechs with JJ shouldnt be better than mechs without JJ.

JJs need to have a downside and currently they dont.

JJs in BT were only used for positioning and had really bad negatives for trying to shoot while doing it.

[Reptilizer]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

And if that final override alpha misses or hits different location? You are pretty much screwed then, and it is hard to aim when your target is in your face real close. Also, you assume that you still have armor, while you already have none, and probably missing half of your weapons.



Yeah, just enough to stop three 30-point alphas. You aren't gonna be hitting it every time tho.



Well, yes, but irrelevant if you are close, as I said, you can focus SRMs/LBX just the same. If you do its DPS vs DPS, and brawler has higher one.

I stated my POV, you stated yours.
Our experiences obviously differ though.

[PhoenixFire55]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 March 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

I'm more sporting an go around 50-60KpH Phoenix

With St.engine, yeah.

[PhoenixFire55]

Khobai, on 04 March 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

For some reason jumpjets are being targeted as the main problem and not the fact mechs can still do 30 damage to one location from 500m-600m away. If they had just nerfed pinpoint weapons, it wouldve not only fixed poptarts, but also made brawling more viable.

QFT.

[Varent]

Steel your Life, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

This game has gotten so out of control with the jump jet and fire technique that the game is almost no fun to play.

The only reason I have been able to hold out this long is because the only people that did the JJ and fire meta crap were the premade 4 or 12 mans. Now unfortunately everyone is doing it pro and pug making the game so far from anything that feels like a true mech warrior experience.

When I play a match now all I see is a bunch of jumping, bounding, floating mechs bouncing about like its a video game version of the moon landing. This game is a horrible realization of the once proud mech warrior franchise, an unholy money making abomination to everything mech warrior. This is like Disney getting ahold of star wars and making a new star wars film by Disney.....(WHAT?! that's really not a joke its happening...) It would seem artistic integrity is a thing of the past and brand name games sell out faster than popular sports stars. PGI you were never known for anything in the past now you shall ever be remembered in the future for destroying one of the last sacred and most awaited franchises on the PC.

Mechs run around jumping all over the place at ridiculous speeds, mechs go down in a matter of seconds like its a mech warrior version of Call of Duty, its a bad arcade game and im the chump sticking quarters in the slot. Games are stupid one sided stomps because mechs die so fast no one can react to changing battle positions you just step in the wrong place and your gone. THERE IS NO VOICE CHAT!!!

So this is in the balance section because you need t fix the above mentioned problems.

P.S PGI It really should tell you something when the most posts on your forum are under the game balance category. Most mmos the General discussion category has the most posts.

Anyway PGI I hope my money catches fire in the back seat of your car as you drive to the bank.

upcoming patch. Changes to jump jets yo.

[Ghogiel]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 March 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

There are no AC10s on 'meta' jumpsnipers.

CTF 3D says hi

[Gas Guzzler]

Its not that hard to counter poptarting. Just think instead of acting like a turkey on thanksgiving. And yeah your argument that "10 tons is nothing on a Highlander" is ridiculous. An HGN without jump jets has more tonnage available for weapons, so all else equal, and HGN without jump jets will have more weapons/higher heat efficiency than one with jump jets. Now the issue of being able to jump effectively with one jump jet IS a problem. But they are fixing it today, so its all good

[Smokeyjedi]

Steel your Life, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

This game has gotten so out of control with the jump jet and fire technique that the game is almost no fun to play.

The only reason I have been able to hold out this long is because the only people that did the JJ and fire meta crap were the premade 4 or 12 mans. Now unfortunately everyone is doing it pro and pug making the game so far from anything that feels like a true mech warrior experience.

When I play a match now all I see is a bunch of jumping, bounding, floating mechs bouncing about like its a video game version of the moon landing. This game is a horrible realization of the once proud mech warrior franchise, an unholy money making abomination to everything mech warrior. This is like Disney getting ahold of star wars and making a new star wars film by Disney.....(WHAT?! that's really not a joke its happening...) It would seem artistic integrity is a thing of the past and brand name games sell out faster than popular sports stars. PGI you were never known for anything in the past now you shall ever be remembered in the future for destroying one of the last sacred and most awaited franchises on the PC.

Mechs run around jumping all over the place at ridiculous speeds, mechs go down in a matter of seconds like its a mech warrior version of Call of Duty, its a bad arcade game and im the chump sticking quarters in the slot. Games are stupid one sided stomps because mechs die so fast no one can react to changing battle positions you just step in the wrong place and your gone. THERE IS NO VOICE CHAT!!!

So this is in the balance section because you need t fix the above mentioned problems.

P.S PGI It really should tell you something when the most posts on your forum are under the game balance category. Most mmos the General discussion category has the most posts.

Anyway PGI I hope my money catches fire in the back seat of your car as you drive to the bank.

Well than. so much for that.

[Rokuzachi]

Steel your Life, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

This game has gotten so out of control with the jump jet and fire technique that the game is almost no fun to play.

The only reason I have been able to hold out this long is because the only people that did the JJ and fire meta crap were the premade 4 or 12 mans. Now unfortunately everyone is doing it pro and pug making the game so far from anything that feels like a true mech warrior experience.

When I play a match now all I see is a bunch of jumping, bounding, floating mechs bouncing about like its a video game version of the moon landing. This game is a horrible realization of the once proud mech warrior franchise, an unholy money making abomination to everything mech warrior. This is like Disney getting ahold of star wars and making a new star wars film by Disney.....(WHAT?! that's really not a joke its happening...) It would seem artistic integrity is a thing of the past and brand name games sell out faster than popular sports stars. PGI you were never known for anything in the past now you shall ever be remembered in the future for destroying one of the last sacred and most awaited franchises on the PC.

Mechs run around jumping all over the place at ridiculous speeds, mechs go down in a matter of seconds like its a mech warrior version of Call of Duty, its a bad arcade game and im the chump sticking quarters in the slot. Games are stupid one sided stomps because mechs die so fast no one can react to changing battle positions you just step in the wrong place and your gone. THERE IS NO VOICE CHAT!!!

So this is in the balance section because you need t fix the above mentioned problems.

This is generally how I feel. This game should be the mech game in the west. It's an incredible IP, but is being mishandled on the level of the Warhammer IPs. JJs are (were, hopefully) one of the problems, but there are many more.

The game looks great. Not a fan of the cry engine at all, but it still looks nice. I'm excited to think about playing and to watch videos during the day of other players while I wait for the evening to roll around so I can play.

Then I actually play, and it's like someone is crapping all over another cherished childhood memory in the same way that Hollywood has done with a lot of its remakes. I rarely feel like I'm driving a gigantic battle machine. I feel more like a fragile soldier who is in danger of dying at the drop of a hat for even the smallest mistake.

What's worse, is that I'm not being encouraged to improve my skill level. I can play like an idiot and make good progress, even on a standard account. I have no incentive to do anything more than resign myself to my fate as fodder for the meta, and occasionally perform well should a match not take the usual predictable path.

[XSive Death]

Just double heat output when airborne (jumpjets take up all the cooling or some crap), there problem solved.

It becomes too inefficient to poptart so jumps get used primarily for movement.